Disney and Universal: Two very different paths

[WDWDad13]

Nice substantive response. When you don't have a valid counter-argument, labeling works.

ya know... if you would read my post instead of looking for a way to come back at me in a negafan way... you would see what I asked the fan community (which was the purpose of my post....saying that some things are happening that are positive... but what else do you think is coming....of course I don't expect someone like you to see any positive in anything WDW)

knowing that Uni continues to grow and build new attractions....what do you think is or should be WDW's next big plan (or plans)?

 

[WDWDad13]

Just a general thought here... It seems like the majority of the threads have become incredibly derailed and at face value, the simple lack of any news outside of a Starbucks opening or prices rising could be an answer as to why, but the more you look into the threads, it just seems like there have been new posters who have surfaced over the past few months that simply derail the topics and act as a counterweight to anything negative about the state of affairs at TDO. If someone was a cynic, they might even think that some of these posters are getting marching orders from TDO....

oh good grief... maybe it's just that we're being realistic instead of seeing the extreme doom and gloom some try to paint WDW out to be.

Do I think there is major work to be done... yes
Do I think the quality is less than it use to be... yes
Do I think Disney isn't building enough new things... yes
Do I think Uni is improving and growing... yes
Do I think Disney is doing some positive things (even though we tend to only see the bad)... yes
Do I think Disney World is still the best theme park in the world... yes
Do I think the WDC will sit by and watch Uni overtake WDW down the road... no way

 

[flynnibus]

As far as that picture of Pirates being built, I wasn't there back then and can't speak to it but i can tell you before sometime around 2000 I Never saw attractions being built. They were always well hidden behind walls

I can tell you we saw BTMRR being built and it was very exciting as a kid.. as was seeing new EPCOT FW pavilions waiting to open.

 

[lebeau]

They might have been right, though.
While I don't have any figures in front of me, I'm fairly confident that a larger portion of WDW's profits come from food/merch sales than say, Six Flags'.

I don't have any figures in front of me either. But conventional wisdom was that FP failed to achieve the increase in spending Disney was looking for. Turns out, guests mostly used FP to experience more attractions rather than squeeze in more shopping and dining. Or so I have read.

ya know... if you would read my post instead of looking for a way to come back at me in a negafan way... you would see what I asked the fan community (which was the purpose of my post....saying that some things are happening that are positive... but what else do you think is coming....of course I don't expect someone like you to see any positive in anything WDW)

knowing that Uni continues to grow and build new attractions....what do you think is or should be WDW's next big plan (or plans)?

Someone like me? Dude, you don't know me. But what else should I expect from someone like you? (See what I did there?)

Are there positive things happening in Disney World? Yes. Of course there are. That goes without saying. Even at the worst of times, there are still some positive things being done. I see them. I recognize them. But I'm not so desperate to put a positive spin on the overall direction the resort is taking that I feel the need to shout praises to the heavens because Disney started fixing their rides.

Your list of "positives" included items that were rumored at best. Things that may or may not ever happen. When you're so desperate to find something positive that you have to include things that have not actually happened, may not ever actually happen and may not even ever be announced, I think that says more about the state of things than all the Doom and Gloom in the world.

 

[misterID]

ya know... if you would read my post instead of looking for a way to come back at me in a negafan way... you would see what I asked the fan community (which was the purpose of my post....saying that some things are happening that are positive... but what else do you think is coming....of course I don't expect someone like you to see any positive in anything WDW)

knowing that Uni continues to grow and build new attractions....what do you think is or should be WDW's next big plan (or plans)?

There were and have been several big plans for WDW over the past several years. They were all shot down. It's hard to get excited anymore. It looks like SWL has the best chance of happening. That's nothing compared to what should have been built five-six years ago. It's not just about things not working out. None of it has. FLE was forced down TDO's throat. Then they wanted it to be a big gift shop and M&G. And they had to force the SD mine coaster on them (a clone). Hell, our Monster INC. coaster is headed to DCA. That says everything.

 

[WDWDad13]

I don't have any figures in front of me either. But conventional wisdom was that FP failed to achieve the increase in spending Disney was looking for. Turns out, guests mostly used FP to experience more attractions rather than squeeze in more shopping and dining. Or so I have read.



Someone like me? Dude, you don't know me. But what else should I expect from someone like you? (See what I did there?)

Are there positive things happening in Disney World? Yes. Of course there are. That goes without saying. Even at the worst of times, there are still some positive things being done. I see them. I recognize them. But I'm not so desperate to put a positive spin on the overall direction the resort is taking that I feel the need to shout praises to the heavens because Disney started fixing their rides.

Your list of "positives" included items that were rumored at best. Things that may or may not ever happen. When you're so desperate to find something positive that you have to include things that have not actually happened, may not ever actually happen and may not even ever be announced, I think that says more about the state of things than all the Doom and Gloom in the world.

ok let's recap shall we:

- TRUE - they are doing more refurbs here lately than they use to so that's a good sign
- TRUE - investing a ton in NexGen and MyMagic+ "stuff" for the future of the theme parks
- TRUE/OPINION - the Disney Springs project looks encouraging (at least to me anyways) and could be a really nice addition if done the way the concept art shows (and they get some good stores, etc.)
- RUMOR/LIKELY - stars wars land is a pretty realistic rumor
- TRUE/with question marks - Avatarland (or something in AK) is likely coming
- RUMOR - Imagination pavilion rumored to be redone?
- TRUE - new parade coming to MK
- RUMOR/LIKELY based on testing - possible new night show coming to DAK
- TRUE - extremely popular villains event recently

I'm not desperate to find something positive... but I can honestly say I don't look at WDW and immediately think it's going in the toilet and Uni will take them over soon like many do around here

also no one is shouting praises to the heavens about them refurbing things... of course this is pretty much a need and a requirement... but with all the bashing around here, and us starting to see things refurbed more than they were before (in recent years) this gives me some hope.... HOWEVER I have already started seeing some people complaining now about all the refurbs, etc. so this leads me to believe Disney can't win.

I have to wonder... if Disney had built Harry Potter or something on that scale... how many around here would still be trying to find all things bad about WDW? My guess is many... because that's all it's ever going to be to them...not good enough...ever.... that is what is sad

Again, they need to do A LOT of things... I agree... but WDW is not going to become Six Flags under water people

 

[WDWDad13]

There were and have been several big plans for WDW over the past several years. They were all shot down. It's hard to get excited anymore. It looks like SWL has the best chance of happening. That's nothing compared to what should have been built five-six years ago. It's not just about things not working out. None of it has. FLE was forced down TDO's throat. Then they wanted it to be a big gift shop and M&G. And they had to force the SD mine coaster on them (a clone). Hell, our Monster INC. coaster is headed to DCA. That says everything.

I agree... however I don't think the Monster's coaster will end up in DCA (still a big question mark there).

I will be the first to admit... I'm glad Uni is growing like they are...building new rides, new hotels, etc.... competition is a good thing... and might just be what the mouse (in florida) needs to wake up and smell the butterbeer

 

[WDWDad13]

many of you have to understand... I'm not "snorting pixie dust", "high on magic", or a "Disney "... and I am especially not working for them

I DO see a lot of negative things and things they need to improve on...I'm not blind to it... I see it too...HOWEVER I simply do not fail to see the good as well

I honestly believe Disney can't win on some things with some people....life is too short, let's enjoy what we have and just hope for the best

 

[Jane Doe]

My first visit to WDW was in 2004, I've visited several times since then. Since my first visit WDW has added

Little Mermaid
Another Dumbo (making a ride bigger)
Belle's Storytime
Monsters Inc Laughter Floor
Soarin'
Turtle Talk
Nemo
Expedition Everest
Nemo - The Musical (show replacement)
American Idol (show replacement)
Lights Motors Action
Toy Story Mania

I don't stop in WDW hotels, own a DVC or have a problem pulling currency/credit cards out of my pocket so anything other than attractions is not considered important to me, I'm there for the parks, nothing else. So in real terms then that's nine new additions in nine years across four parks (and I'm not taking into account anything attractions that have been closed) and which ever way you slice it is poor. Also in that time I have seen no other fireworks other than Wishes, Illuminations and Fantasmic and the only alteration to the nighttime parade was changing Spectromagic to MSEP which, although new to me, was an old parade.

And refurbishing rides and attractions isn't a bonus, it's maintenance and that is something that should be done regardless.

 

[lebeau]

It's like you don't even realize you are spinning things.

Here is your list without any spin:

ok let's recap shall we:

They are doing refurbs
Heavily invested in NexGen and MyMagic+ project about which little is currently known.
The Disney Springs project has been announced
A Star Wars project of some kind has been hinted at
Avatarland has been announced
New parade coming to MK

Those things are factual and indisputable. But what do you do with those facts? Do you look at them and think Disney should be doing more? Especially given they have been steadily raising prices during a down economy? Or do you lump this in with some rumored/likely projects as a sign of good times to come?

I'm a pragmatist. If I want to predict the future, I take the information at hand and filter it through past experience. At best, this leads me to be cautiously optimistic. Emphasis on the caution. Because Disney has had a history of disappointing me in the last several years and nothing that has been announced indicates that the next few years will be any different.

I'm not desperate to find something positive... but I can honestly say I don't look at WDW and immediately think it's going in the toilet and Uni will take them over soon like many do around here

You're mischaracterizing the opposing point of view. I won't say that no one says those things because there are always extremists on either side of the argument. But very few people around here feel that Disney is "going into the toilet" or that "Uni will take them over soon".

also no one is shouting praises to the heavens about them refurbing things... of course this is pretty much a need and a requirement... but with all the bashing around here, and us starting to see things refurbed more than they were before (in recent years) this gives me some hope.... HOWEVER I have already started seeing some people complaining now about all the refurbs, etc. so this leads me to believe Disney can't win.

To an extent, you're right. People will complain no matter what. The same people who complain about lack of refurbs are likely to complain about a refurb during their trip. Personally, I never complain about a refurb even if it means that one of my favorite attractions will be down. I'd rather they get the needed work. But not everyone is as consistent as I am.

Having said that, I do think you are laying the positivity on a little thick for what amounts to standard maintenance. Fair?

I have to wonder... if Disney had built Harry Potter or something on that scale... how many around here would still be trying to find all things bad about WDW? My guess is many... because that's all it's ever going to be to them...not good enough...ever.... that is what is sad

I disagree. There will always be some complainers. You can't ever make everyone happy. But if Disney built something of the scope and scale of Potter, most fans would be over the moon about it. Me too. I remember a time when Disney did such things. But until Disney does them again, we'll never know for sure.

That's the issue. It's not that people are complaining (about legitimate short comings). It's that Disney is not living up to its own standards. When they do (if they do) the tone around here will change dramatically.

Again, they need to do A LOT of things... I agree... but WDW is not going to become Six Flags under water people

No one is saying that.

The truth is, we probably agree more than we disagree. But you're reacting against what you perceive as too much negativity which is causing you to overstate your pro-Disney stance. Which in turn causes people to respond with more negativity and the cycle feeds on itself for 50+ pages.

 

[rd805]

"Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"

We need news. lol #dyingatwork

 

[1023]

Playing devils advocate a little here because I'm not a big fan of FP+ either, but other than MK are there more than 3 rides that need FP?
EPCOT = Soarin and TT
DHS = ToT, TSMM and RnRC
AK = EE and Safari
MK = 3 mountains plus maybe Pan, Pooh and Buzz

I don't think it's necessary to have more than 3 anywhere but MK during busy times.

The park hopping restriction is a negative and you can't get 2 for the same ride on the same day. My biggest problem is having to book reservations 60 days in advance, but like ADRs it's something we will need to adjust to.

I agree that there are few offerings in the parks not labeled Magic Kingdom. That leads into another "WDW taketh away" subject. It also brings to mind this statement, " If there are no worthy attractions to use FastPassMinus on, why are they adding FastPassMinus to attractions that previously did not need it?" The obvious answer is crowd control, but I think it also covers up the fact that there are so few attractions that draw crowds in other parks. It is also worth mentioning that lack of capacity at the popular attractions is what makes FP such a big deal.

FastPassMinus has some very bad speculation (with some supporting "insiders") to be found even outside of this forum. It seems possible that "guests" not staying on-site during the busiest of times may be unable to secure even one FP- for one of the "mountains". Also, "guests" will be placed in a "class" system that makes more FastPassMinus available at "premier" attractions to those in "deluxe" hotels and fewer available to those in the lower ranks hotels. So while Express Pass Unlimited might be a pay option for customers not staying on property, WDW isn't giving their off-site "guests" a shot at any FastPassMinus for their "premier" attractions at MK.

Another way you are LIMITED at WDW under the new FastPassMinus is there is no way to use it multiple times on the same attraction. In fact, the standby wait will likely increase at your favorite attraction. If you use Express Pass Unlimited at UO, you can go on your favorite eligible ride quite a few times.

Getting back to, "taketh away", Epcot does indeed have a limited number of attractions that require FastPassMinus. Why? Closures. Lack of "new" attractions. In California, Soarin' was known to have capacity issues, why wasn't this clone quadrupled in size in Florida. TestTrack's issues were not addressed at all in it's major refurbishment/re-imagining. Since January 1st, 2007,(closure of the Wonder's of Life pavilion) actual experiences in this park have dwindled and capacity has been reduced. In fact, if you count the removal of the original ImageWorks from the upstairs in the Imagination! pavilion in 1998. That's five "edutainment" attractions gone in just 2 areas of "Future World".

I know you were playing devil's advocate and I appreciate it. That really helps show the direction of WDW in a downward direction. I hope as a Disney fan, things turn around. Looking at the projected investment in customer tangibles, I have to say UO is in an upward direction. UO giveth and WDW taketh away.

*1023*

 

[ford91exploder]

If you can't understand what Disney is doing with My Disney Experience and MyMagic+ then that is truly unfortunate. Give it 5/10 years and other parks will see how this is beneficial to Disney's overall operation and how it earns them more $$$ and others will follow. That's being an innovator. Yes, I'm sure the thought process behind it was to make $$, but Disney is still a business. Sorry if that ruins the magic a bit.

I understand EXACTLY what Disney is doing here, Trying to tell Wall St that the business is growing by their constant price increases while the Deluxe Resorts have 50% of rooms out of service so they can cook the 'occupancy' numbers. Yes the resort was 85% full - but only if you don't count the rooms out of service.

MB is intended to increase impulse spending by the guests they DO have on property, In order to pay for this based on Disney's reported numbers MB will need to increase gross revenue by 15%, I'm an engineer I look at the world how it IS not how I want it to be.

Meanwhile down the road UNI has enough organic business growth to think about ADDING 15,000 rooms, If they do this and add hotels of the Portofino Bay quality with convention halls attached they can swing the convention business entirely away from WDW, Iced tea at $75 dollars per gallon, Give me a break in Vegas it's 10-15 bucks a gallon.

Financial engineering always blows up in the end, Just like packaging subprime and NINJA mortgages into a big block have a rating agency lie and call these AAA+ rated, The underlying value is not there and the true value will be discovered and the whole edifice comes crashing down.

 

[ford91exploder]

I don't have any figures in front of me either. But conventional wisdom was that FP failed to achieve the increase in spending Disney was looking for. Turns out, guests mostly used FP to experience more attractions rather than squeeze in more shopping and dining. Or so I have read.



Someone like me? Dude, you don't know me. But what else should I expect from someone like you? (See what I did there?)

Are there positive things happening in Disney World? Yes. Of course there are. That goes without saying. Even at the worst of times, there are still some positive things being done. I see them. I recognize them. But I'm not so desperate to put a positive spin on the overall direction the resort is taking that I feel the need to shout praises to the heavens because Disney started fixing their rides.

Your list of "positives" included items that were rumored at best. Things that may or may not ever happen. When you're so desperate to find something positive that you have to include things that have not actually happened, may not ever actually happen and may not even ever be announced, I think that says more about the state of things than all the Doom and Gloom in the world.

What Disney forgets is they are NOT RUNNING A MALL, People go to the Disney parks for the attractions, If the reverse were true the 'Mall of America' which HAS AN ATTACHED THEME PARK would be the number one tourist attraction in the United States. Which is why trying to drive food and merch is insane on it's face especially since the merch is all generic now and can be purchased ONLINE FROM DISNEY FOR LESS THAN IT SELLS FOR IN THE PARK!!!!, It's not like Tokyo where each of the Lands have Unique Food and Merch which can be purchased there ONLY And says Tokyo DisneySea not 'Disney Parks'.

 

[WDW1974]

I can tell you we saw BTMRR being built and it was very exciting as a kid.. as was seeing new EPCOT FW pavilions waiting to open.

Hate joining a thread 18 pages in, and worse --to agree with my pal @flynnibus -- but his experiences here mirror mine. A major part of visiting WDW was seeing what would come next by visiting a preview center or taking a monorail out to preview EPCOT Center.

That has been missing since the 1990s and the biggest reason is because Disney has largely stopped building major things, things of substance in WDW.

Now, when I see a construction fence I think about the meaningless Waltisms that are plastered on them and what they really mean and laugh a sad laugh.

 

[BryceM]

I did always find out it astounding that the (supposedly) best Disney parks are the two that aren't even run by Disney.

 

[GoofGoof]

Literal cartwheels? I would have hurt myself 50 lbs ago. But I can still turn a mean metaphorical cartwheel.

By all means, give Disney credit when they do something right! It doesn't happen all that often. So I am glad maintenance is being done. But I also don't want to give them too much credit for doing something that should be a given.

I have made this comparison before, but Disney is like your failing student who brings home a D-. Sure, an improvement was made and praise is warranted. But they still have a long way to go. And it could just be a fluke.

I agree and this may be splitting hairs, but I see it as WDW has been limping along with a D average on maintenance and upkeep across all 4 parks. They got a solid A on the Splash refurb. The rest of MK is coming along too. I'm not immediately going "all in" saying they are definitely going to be a straight A student just for getting one solid mark but it was a step in the right direction and a could be a sign of things to come.

 

[ford91exploder]

I did always find out it astounding that the (supposedly) best Disney parks are the two that aren't even run by Disney.

I think in DisneySea's case OLC being a Japanese company has much to do with the quality of the park AND they understand that the parks need continuous investment to keep them fresh, And the Japanese financial markets value long term profitability over short term gain so the incentive to run park into ground to meet short term profit goals is minimized.

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree that there are few offerings in the parks not labeled Magic Kingdom. That leads into another "WDW taketh away" subject. It also brings to mind this statement, " If there are no worthy attractions to use FastPassMinus on, why are they adding FastPassMinus to attractions that previously did not need it?" The obvious answer is crowd control, but I think it also covers up the fact that there are so few attractions that draw crowds in other parks. It is also worth mentioning that lack of capacity at the popular attractions is what makes FP such a big deal.

FastPassMinus has some very bad speculation (with some supporting "insiders") to be found even outside of this forum. It seems possible that "guests" not staying on-site during the busiest of times may be unable to secure even one FP- for one of the "mountains". Also, "guests" will be placed in a "class" system that makes more FastPassMinus available at "premier" attractions to those in "deluxe" hotels and fewer available to those in the lower ranks hotels. So while Express Pass Unlimited might be a pay option for customers not staying on property, WDW isn't giving their off-site "guests" a shot at any FastPassMinus for their "premier" attractions at MK.

Another way you are LIMITED at WDW under the new FastPassMinus is there is no way to use it multiple times on the same attraction. In fact, the standby wait will likely increase at your favorite attraction. If you use Express Pass Unlimited at UO, you can go on your favorite eligible ride quite a few times.

Getting back to, "taketh away", Epcot does indeed have a limited number of attractions that require FastPassMinus. Why? Closures. Lack of "new" attractions. In California, Soarin' was known to have capacity issues, why wasn't this clone quadrupled in size in Florida. TestTrack's issues were not addressed at all in it's major refurbishment/re-imagining. Since January 1st, 2007,(closure of the Wonder's of Life pavilion) actual experiences in this park have dwindled and capacity has been reduced. In fact, if you count the removal of the original ImageWorks from the upstairs in the Imagination! pavilion in 1998. That's five "edutainment" attractions gone in just 2 areas of "Future World".

I know you were playing devil's advocate and I appreciate it. That really helps show the direction of WDW in a downward direction. I hope as a Disney fan, things turn around. Looking at the projected investment in customer tangibles, I have to say UO is in an upward direction. UO giveth and WDW taketh away.

*1023*

I agree with what you are saying. There are definitely some negatives to the whole system. For me, the 3 reservation limit isn't a big deal. I rarely used more than 3 fast passes in a day. Maybe on a real busy day at MK. I generally wouldn't repeat a ride using multiple fast passes either. I may grab a FP and then jump in the standby line to ride twice, but I can't remember ever using a FP and then getting another FP for later for the same ride again. I'm sure there are people who do it. The park hopping restriction is also a hassle. I guess they really don't want you to park hop, but then why offer the option?

On the issue of offering more FP reservations to those staying in deluxe resorts or those on property I have no problem with it if that is what they really do. If that really happens I can't imagine they would not offer other guests the option to buy in (for a hefty fee of course). It's the Universal model and it works well as a perk and incentive to stay on property. Once Universal opens their value resort they will have a class system assuming that speculation is accurate and those guests will not get the same perk as the deluxe guests. I have no problem with either property offering their deluxe guests a leg up as a perk for "overpaying" for their rooms.

 

[nor'easter]

I honestly believe Disney can't win on some things with some people....life is too short, let's enjoy what we have and just hope for the best

Yes, tomorrow is another day, life is what you make of it, and if you can't say somethin' nice don't say nothin' at all.