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Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Finally got to see Apes after traveling to WDW and Nashville since it opened.

I dug it. That was a safe bet, as I’ve been watching these since the 70’s. Loved all the little nods, aware probably most people in the theater didn’t catch them.

Well done, setting sequels up nicely. This is still all happening before the original series.
 

brideck

Well-Known Member
My only issue is I hope I didn’t mess up… my Wife is a huge Amy Winehouse and really wants to see the Back to Black film… she usually follows my lead about what to watch… so I feel if there is something that really interests her we should go… we planned on our anniversary next week as we also wanted to see Challengers so that was my priority since I did not know how much longer it would be playing at our local theater… well with Back to Black not finding an audience… who knows if it will make a 2nd weekend here

I think you'll be okay. Focus has been struggling lately with their releases and everything has held screen counts for at least two weeks, e.g. Lisa Frankenstein, Drive-Away Dolls, etc.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I haven't been paying that close attention, but when did we move away from the 2.5X rule to 3X? I think that's causing you to over-estimate loses. Now that the 2024 financials are out, content loses were not in line with your last year estimates, probably because of that.

That 2.5x was never my thing. The formula I have used is to take the production budget, add on half of that for global marketing, and then give it a 60% cut of domestic box office plus a 40% cut of overseas box office.

With a production budget of $160 Million, and an assumed global marketing budget of $80 Million, Apes 9 would need roughly $480 Million globally to break even.

Guardians 3 will be a good comp if that budget is accurate. Its break even ended up around 600 million (2.5X would have predicted 625).

I very much personally think 750+ million is their goal though. Particularly in light of how Logan and other Deadpool movies performed.

View attachment 786481

Cripes. They spent $250 Million on the production budget, and then another $300 Million on marketing and distribution costs? No wonder Disney is losing money hand over fist. Especially when it's just one money losing Disney division (Disney+) in 2023 paying another 2023 money losing Disney division (Marvel Studios) for the privilege of being in the same company.

I would assume with Deadpool 3 they are trying to get more than what Guardians 3 made at the box office. If Deadpool 3 only makes $845 Million at the global box office, it will only make about $50 Million profit from the box office. Before they start the internal accounting game of different divisions of Disney paying each other for their money-losing product.

Aim Higher.jpg
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
If I read this right Apes had a good opening weekend but has tapered off?

Admittedly it’s not a franchise I follow closely but did like the original series back in the day when I was a kid.
 

DKampy

Well-Known Member
If I read this right Apes had a good opening weekend but has tapered off?

Admittedly it’s not a franchise I follow closely but did like the original series back in the day when I was a kid.
A 55% decline is not bad for a blockbuster such as Apes in its 2nd weekend…most big summer blockbusters tend to drop above 60%…. Sure it could of been better to give us a clear sign… but it is in that middle ground where it does not really give us a clear picture yet… it’s still to early to say how successful Apes is… although next week Could pose a challenge as Furiosa should be direct competition
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
If I read this right Apes had a good opening weekend but has tapered off?

Admittedly it’s not a franchise I follow closely but did like the original series back in the day when I was a kid.

Yes, that's about right. Industry sources, and an obvious look at the data, show that Apes 9 has "poor legs" in industryspeak. It had a modestly strong opening weekend of $56 Million, but then stalled.

“Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes” cost $160 million to produce, so it needs to keep swinging at the box office to justify its price tag. -Variety, May 19th

Here's where it stands as of Sunday, May 19th. It has "poor legs".

L'eggs.jpg


 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Here's one we can put into the history books this week... The First Omen from Disney's 20th Century Studios. It appears to have been pulled from its remaining 150 theaters as of today.

Here's where The First Omen ended its run at the box office, with a reported $30 Million production budget and an assumed shoestring global marketing budget of $15 Million.

The First Omen: $30 Production, $15 Marketing, $12 Domestic, $13 Overseas = $20 Million Loss

Not All That Ominous, Is It.jpg


 
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brideck

Well-Known Member
Yes, that's about right. Industry sources, and an obvious look at the data, show that Apes 9 has "poor legs" in industryspeak. It had a modestly strong opening weekend of $56 Million, but then stalled.

I wonder how different that legs funnel will look next year once the (now aberrant) 2019 numbers are off the books. Not at all arguing that it's got great legs, just that it might actually be closer to average in the post-pandemic, I'll just wait at home market.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I wonder how different that legs funnel will look next year once the (now aberrant) 2019 numbers are off the books. Not at all arguing that it's got great legs, just that it might actually be closer to average in the post-pandemic, I'll just wait at home market.

That's a valid point as the graph is "based on movies from the past 5 years".

But I also wonder how the horribly wonky box office years of 2020-21 factor into warping that graph?
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Cripes. They spent $250 Million on the production budget, and then another $300 Million on marketing and distribution costs? No wonder Disney is losing money hand over fist. Especially when it's just one money losing Disney division (Disney+) in 2023 paying another 2023 money losing Disney division (Marvel Studios) for the privilege of being in the same company.

I would assume with Deadpool 3 they are trying to get more than what Guardians 3 made at the box office. If Deadpool 3 only makes $845 Million at the global box office, it will only make about $50 Million profit from the box office. Before they start the internal accounting game of different divisions of Disney paying each other for their money-losing product.

How was this what you took away from my post? 😂

Your calculations and break evens are now demonstrably wrong. I've given you an easy quick fix. Instead you want to make them... more wrong? 850million on Deadpool 3 would be considered excellent by all involved. It would likewise make it one of the highest earning films of the year, as Guardians 3 was last year. Across all Studios.

If I read this right Apes had a good opening weekend but has tapered off?

Admittedly it’s not a franchise I follow closely but did like the original series back in the day when I was a kid.

Ignore TP on this one. Its drop off is largely neutral for a typical tentpole. 55% is neither good nor bad. The Variety quote he highlights says exactly that. It needs to keep up its pace.

Here's a rather positive one from Deadline on the same date; "20th Century Studios/Disney’s Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes saw $10.9M Saturday, +60% over Friday for a 3-day of $25.7M, -56% and a cume near $101M. Bravo, Disney."
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
TBQH? I’m of the mindset that good or bad I don’t think 2024 is going to be a good indicator of the state one industry. There are multiple factors that are going into this that are going to take a bit of time to resolve.

Disney wisely tamped down how much they are releasing this year. I fully expect something like Deadpool three to reach $1 billion dollars. After that? I’m not so sure what else might get close. Likely not much, but time will tell.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
How was this what you took away from my post? 😂

Your calculations and break evens are now demonstrably wrong. I've given you an easy quick fix. Instead you want to make them... more wrong? 850million on Deadpool 3 would be considered excellent by all involved. It would likewise make it one of the highest earning films of the year, as Guardians 3 was last year. Across all Studios.

The 2.5X thing often works out just fine. It worked perfectly for the $25 Million loss they just took on The First Omen, for example.

But as I understand it, if a movie over-indexes overseas versus its domestic take, like Elemental did, then the 2.5X model would be more flattering for Pixar than using a 60% Domestic and 40% Overseas box office take that I used in my big, exciting End Of Year tally. Right?

You can continue using the more vague 2.5X model, and as The First Omen shows it can often lead us to directly the same result; a $20 Million loss for that little movie. But I'm so used to using the domestic/overseas differences and so many of Disney's movies play huge overseas, that I'll just keep using that industry standard that a studio gets 40% of its overseas box office, compared to 60% of its domestic box office.

Ignore TP on this one. Its drop off is largely neutral for a typical tentpole. 55% is neither good nor bad. The Variety quote he highlights says exactly that. It needs to keep up its pace.

You aren't ignoring me per se, you are ignoring The Numbers site that posts these graphs for all movies in America.

As a point of reference to the Apes 9 chart above, here's how a movie looks on that chart when it has very good legs.

Bendable Legs.jpg


 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
I think it's pretty clear that moviegoing habits have changed forever.

I don't think anyone disagrees.

What hasn't changed yet is how Disney budgets their movies in this new business environment. That will likely take another couple years to work itself out, but it seems like they need to slash costs and labor by huge amounts ASAP. Along with most other studios, but Disney seems to be the worst at keeping budgets and costs down right now.

I mean honestly, $350 Million for Indy 5? $250 Million for Little Mermaid Live? $275 Million for The Marvels? o_O

Meanwhile, it their only money making division, there's still no night parade and no new rides under construction?
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
The 2.5X thing often works out just fine. It worked perfectly for the $25 Million loss they just took on The First Omen, for example.

But as I understand it, if a movie over-indexes overseas versus its domestic take, like Elemental did, then the 2.5X model would be more flattering for Pixar than using a 60% Domestic and 40% Overseas box office take that I used in my big, exciting End Of Year tally. Right?

Theoretically. But while you are labeling Elemental as a 75 million loss or whatever, Disney has it as profitable. So 2.5X still is also under-indexing; calling it a 2 million loss (or really just break even). I'm fine if you want to normalize the domestic + international distribution. But you cannot do that and ALSO use a 3X production break even threshold. It's a double hit.

I think in hindsight, we had been years since Disney has had failures to index against. It seemed nebulous and I sort of wearingly followed your premise last year.

But what is wrong is that the Studios reported a loss on financial reports, we have the figures. You've doubled that in your estimates for last year. 2.5X is far closer, 2.5X also more closely aligns with Deadline reported figures on every single movie that we had a reveal for (Marvels, Indy, HM, Wish and Guardians 3) than your estimates had last year.

Isn't it disingenuous to continue pontificating your break evens when they are clearly not accurate and wildly under-calling profit? I know the answer to that is yes, because you seem motivated to over-report their loses. I actually didn't even technically report a single additional film as profitable in the grand scheme of things last year in all technicality. I just didn't drum up the loses so high *outside of Marvels, which you were actually generous to.

All of which is to swing back around to a break even on Apes is 400. A break even on Deadpool 3 is 600. A break even on Inside Out 2 is 438 (which is shockingly no different than its predecessor, I'm surprised they actually decreased its production budget accounting for inflation). If we want to fudge those numbers a bit in the unique scenario one of the films has a 1:4 domestic:international take. Sure, fine.

But in good news, Barbie also made even more money than you think it did.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Theoretically. But while you are labeling Elemental as a 75 million loss or whatever, Disney has it as profitable. So 2.5X still is also under-indexing; calling it a 2 million loss (or really just break even). I'm fine if you want to normalize the domestic + international distribution. But you cannot do that and ALSO use a 3X production break even threshold. It's a double hit.

I think in hindsight, we had been years since Disney has had failures to index against. It seemed nebulous and I sort of wearingly followed your premise last year.

But what is wrong is that the Studios reported a loss on financial reports, we have the figures. You've doubled that in your estimates for last year. 2.5X is far closer, 2.5X also more closely aligns with Deadline reported figures on every single movie that we had a reveal for (Marvels, Indy, HM, Wish and Guardians 3) than your estimates had last year.

Isn't it disingenuous to continue pontificating your break evens when they are clearly not accurate and wildly under-calling profit? I know the answer to that is yes, because you seem motivated to over-report their loses. I actually didn't even technically report a single additional film as profitable in the grand scheme of things last year in all technicality. I just didn't drum up the loses so high *outside of Marvels, which you were actually generous to.

Here's the math and simple formula for box office Mr. Johnson and I use in the Global Command Center:

Production Budget + Half Production Budget For Marketing = Costs
60% Domestic Box Office Take + 40% Overseas Box Office Take = Revenue
Costs plus Revenue = Box Office Profit/Loss

I'm happy to reconsider that, if someone has a good industry source or two that says that formula no longer works for whatever reason in 2024. What is the 3X model you are referring to? Was that because some films in 2023 that over-indexed overseas, or under-indexed domestically, got closer to a 3X formula to break even using the formula above?
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
I'm happy to reconsider that, if someone has a good industry source or two that says that formula no longer works for whatever reason in 2024.

Did you not read my previous post? I cited my sources. Disney Financials and Deadline Financial estimations. I showed you how your formula over-estimated Disney's loses by over 2 times reality. It also poorly predicted every films final take homes that we have sources for from Deadline.

What is the 3X model you are referring to?

I'm simply talking about your estimates to break even. You are requiring every film to triple its production budget (more or less) as a threshold.

By taking 1.5x production costs and half of box office take (if domestic and international are roughly even), you are essentially yielding a financial estimate that requires a film to make 3x its production to break even. It does not account for revenue from ancillary sources. It isn't even a good figure for costs, because it misses a large source of other costs such as Participation. So every single figure you report is simply inaccurate. If you are going to use funky made up numbers, at least the results can be right.

The revenues, the expenses and the actual earnings. None of them are the actual numbers - well apart from just the production cost, that's the only thing we know upfront. And the box offie figures, which are merely an estimate of some of the films final revenue. But you keep implying those are the full and only real numbers and then use them to derive a calculation of profit that is ultimately inaccurate.

(2.5X Production - box office)/2... or if you really want 1.25x production minus 60:40 splits is a far better estimate on if the studio actually makes or loses money. It's a better barometer of what it takes to break even. It doesn't actually tell you what the film truly cost in production, it doesn't tell you what the film truly made in revenue, but it does more accurately predict what the studio took home.

Do you know Barbie cost 588 million In expenses? No, because you are using a weird formula that assumes the production cost of 145 million is the actual implicit cost. It isn't. It scales with more financially successful films. We don't try and estimate that, we simply try and estimate what the studios are taking home.

There's always going to be some breakdown on extremes. Extremely high earners, Extremely low earners and then movies within a stones throw of break even as the studios have upside risk with participation. Or Comcast animated films that wildly under-report their production costs as a percentage of the films actual expenses.

So while 2.5X Deadpool's production budget implies the studio probably starts taking home money around 625 million, the studio probably remains in a weird break-even state between a 575-625 band, because it isn't yet triggering extra money for Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds.

The actual costs on Deadpool 3? I dunno, it's probably going to be 500 million+
 
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Disney Irish

Premium Member
Here's the math and simple formula for box office Mr. Johnson and I use in the Global Command Center:

Production Budget + Half Production Budget For Marketing = Costs
60% Domestic Box Office Take + 40% Overseas Box Office Take = Revenue
Costs plus Revenue = Box Office Profit/Loss

I'm happy to reconsider that, if someone has a good industry source or two that says that formula no longer works for whatever reason in 2024. What is the 3X model you are referring to? Was that because some films in 2023 that over-indexed overseas, or under-indexed domestically, got closer to a 3X formula to break even using the formula above?
The issue with that is its not cut and dry 60/40 across the board. Some studios have different deals, even per movie, that skews that number. For example we know that Disney had closer to 65-70 on domestic for many movies. Plus not to mention that movies are front loaded, so that 60/40 only really counts for the first week or two. The 2.5x is a more accurate average as its takes away the many different percentages that studio setup. And as @BrianLo stated it lines up directly with Disney's own financial reporting and Deadlines own predictions.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
The issue with that is its not cut and dry 60/40 across the board. Some studios have different deals, even per movie, that skews that number. For example we know that Disney had closer to 65-70 on domestic for many movies. Plus not to mention that movies are front loaded, so that 60/40 only really counts for the first week or two. The 2.5x is a more accurate average as its takes away the many different percentages that studio setup. And as @BrianLo stated it lines up directly with Disney's own financial reporting and Deadlines own predictions.

This is also how the Illumination animated films back-patting also drives me absolutely nuts. About 'how cheap they are'. They completely bury costs and the estimates fall apart for them. I get the point Pixar is making.

Here's a great example;

The Despicable Me recent films (DM3) had production budget of 100 million. Actual expenses? 338 million

Minions Rise of Gru Production 100 - Actual 368
Strange World Production 180 - Actual 317
Wish Production 200 - Actual 362

Then if you want to compare the extreme earners;
Mario Production 100 - Actual 400
Frozen 2 Production 150 - Actual 453

If you used merely the production break even points, you'd think Frozen needed to make 50% more, Strange World 80% more and Wish 100% more to break even. While there is some fluctuation around profit and costs due to residuals, you almost need to treat every Illumination film with a 3X-3.5X to normalize them.
 

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