Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[Disney Irish]

What are you talking about?

The Netflix Daredevil series was only for Catholics since Matt Murdock was constantly talking to and confessing to his parish priest.

As a reformed Catholic vigilante myself I appreciate having a show with a story just for me.....

 

[erasure fan1]

But here's a show with a 98 on Rotten Tomatoes, universal acclaim, a unique setting and character, a critically haled young lead - precisely the content those posters claim to want - and the reply is, "well... not like that."

No one proclaimed it's the content they wanted. There's a difference between being against diversity and not connecting with a story. It just always has to be all or nothing with you. But here we are, he didn't connect with it and it's of course, the culture wars! I didn't see @flynnibus attacking the actress or insulting immigrants... You asked yesterday, "when did I call people liars?" Well, when you say things like, "posters claim" you are suggesting they are liars and just saying what they are saying to hide their true anti-diversity agenda.

That's your prerogative. It sure doesn't help dispel the idea that one of Marvel's major problems is culture war stuff and people rejecting diverse characters and stories regardless of their quality.

So everyone should watch it and praise it for the sake of diversity? You can be for diversity and still say, yea I didn't connect with the story that was told. That doesn't make someone anti whatever. People can also watch the trailer and say, holy cow, that looks like something from Disney channel and not the MCU and not want to watch it. personally the trailers with their tweenish presentation are probably what kept the show from being viewed more. I'd say it wasn't the culture war but you would just tell me how unbelievably wrong I am. Then you would say that's what kept the muppets mayhem down as well.

 

[DKampy]

Fascinating dialogue between you two, @flynnibus and @Casper Gutman. Really quite interesting to follow as a non Marvel fan.

I had no idea this Ms. Marvel show leaned so heavily into the Pakistani immigrant angle. So that got me wondering "How many people of Pakistani descent now live in North America? Is this a big new audience demographic I had no idea about?".

Per Google, as of latest census figures from 2021 there are...

• 629,946 people of Pakistani descent living in the United States
• 303,260 people of Pakistani descent living in Canada (Almost all of them in the Toronto area)

Let's round up and say that's 1 Million people currently living in the USA and Canada of Pakistani descent. Out of 372 Million people combined in those two countries. Not a lot. Disney+ is not available in Pakistan.

The Nielsen audience figures for Ms. Marvel were very low, not many Marvel fans seemed to want to tune in. Perhaps that wasn't the best financial strategy to go after such a small Pakistani audience demographic so heavily?

So do you only watch shows on right leaning retired gay white men?

 

[_caleb]

I think "I just didn't like that character/context/story" is an avoidance of the deeper question, "why didn't I like that character/context/story?"

At the end of the day, I think Disney knows that what used to be a reliable mainstream audience is not the future for them. They're recognizing that their audience is made up of lots of sub-audiences and there's no way to please all of them. Many folks on here who are unhappy with the current direction of Disney's films may actually be upset they're no longer Disney's primary and exclusive audience. That's why every discussion of Disney always seems to devolve into socio-political issues.

To be clear, I don't think Disney has yet figured out a winning model for the future of movies. The old audience will still show up and support certain films, but drinking from that well comes at the cost of positioning them for the future. For now, they're betting (and not yet winning) on diversity, fandoms, and streaming.

 

[LSLS]

Fascinating dialogue between you two, @flynnibus and @Casper Gutman. Really quite interesting to follow as a non Marvel fan.

I had no idea this Ms. Marvel show leaned so heavily into the Pakistani immigrant angle. So that got me wondering "How many people of Pakistani descent now live in North America? Is this a big new audience demographic I had no idea about?".

Per Google, as of latest census figures from 2021 there are...

• 629,946 people of Pakistani descent living in the United States
• 303,260 people of Pakistani descent living in Canada (Almost all of them in the Toronto area)

Let's round up and say that's 1 Million people currently living in the USA and Canada of Pakistani descent. Out of 372 Million people combined in those two countries. Not a lot. Disney+ is not available in Pakistan.

The Nielsen audience figures for Ms. Marvel were very low, not many Marvel fans seemed to want to tune in. Perhaps that wasn't the best financial strategy to go after such a small Pakistani audience demographic so heavily?

How many Asgardians are living in the US and Canada?

 

[flynnibus]

To open you up to new cultures and ideas?

That's why I watch hundreds of hours of documentaries and endless amounts of history. It's not particularly what I'm in for when I want popcorn TV.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

You can be for diversity and still say, yea I didn't connect with the story that was told. That doesn't make someone anti whatever. People can also watch the trailer and say, holy cow, that looks like something from Disney channel and not the MCU and not want to watch it. personally the trailers with their tweenish presentation are probably what kept the show from being viewed more. I'd say it wasn't the culture war but you would just tell me how unbelievably wrong I am. Then you would say that's what kept the muppets mayhem down as well.

I went back and read my comments in the Ms Marvel thread and this was basically me, I found the first episode slow and commented I thought they should have dropped a second, more exciting, episode to “hook” people, my comment after the second episode was I found it slow also but the ending was intriguing, I commented it felt like a teen drama and I felt is was targeted for a younger audience more than adults… after episode 3 I stopped watching and didn’t participate in the thread again until the discussion changed to it airing on World of Disney.

Not one comment about the characters, the acting, Pakistan, diversity, culture wars, etc… it just didn’t connect.

They can’t all be hits that connect with everyone.

 

[flynnibus]

I think "I just didn't like that character/context/story" is an avoidance of the deeper question, "why didn't I like that character/context/story?"

Why? Why is there some analysis needed for a story I didn't like? If I didn't like a particular Batman story... are we going to go all freudian there too? Or just say "nope, didn't work for me" and be happy to move onto the next option...

I tried watching Haunted Mansion the other night... got bored and turned away. Is it because of some deep rooted hate for New Orleans? Maybe I can't stand a single mother story?? Or is it... just mediocre and didn't resonate for me?

Tried watching the new Little Mermaid about a month ago... again, just off put and couldn't finish it. Why? Probably mainly because I find stories that are just repeats or rehashes pretty bland. I found the underwater styling offputting and nothing they were setting up in the story was that compelling to me. I was forcing myself to stay vs just being entertained.. so I turned it off.

Whose gonna pay the Psychiatrist so we can get to the root of these deep issues?

At the end of the day, I think Disney knows that what used to be a reliable mainstream audience is not the future for them. They're recognizing that their audience is made up of lots of sub-audiences and there's no way to please all of them. Many folks on here who are unhappy with the current direction of Disney's films may actually be upset they're no longer Disney's primary and exclusive audience. That's why every discussion of Disney always seems to devolve into socio-political issues.

A company the size of Disney can certainly offer a diverse set of films... they've done it for decades with their different studios, banners, etc. Where Disney has planted their stake, and caused a riff of late (IMO) is by trying to bow beat people into one shared conscious by taking these topics and mashing them up either in their headline stuff or by these remake examples. Disney is forcing the issue themselves instead of letting people gravitate to what is attractive to them.

Some blowhards are always going to nitpick content no matter what just because of what studio made it... but then when you look at the stupidity that is this Snow White remake.. and monster unneeded films like TLM... you can't just blame audiences. This is Disney making direct concerted efforts to go a certain path.. and frankly dividing a lot more people than unifying.

 

[Willmark]

I'd love to know that too. And I've asked that before, but in a slightly different way...

Who is the blame getting leveled at if The Marvels becomes Disney's 10th (Tenth!) box office bomb in a row in 2023?

Apparently it will be the fault of (your guess is as good as mine)?

Offering up a possibility?

I suspect a lot (some?) of Disney’s problems is that they don’t realize or refuse to believe people don’t want to be lectured in their entertainment. I know that might be shocking to some.

Until they make a decision on that likely the results will be the same.

Nothing Disney or Marvel produces are essential. So it should be no surprise that when people aren’t being entertained they simply skip anything further.

It’s not all that difficult to understand yet seems to be some unfathomable reason why people might be checking out.

 

[_caleb]

Why? Why is there some analysis needed for a story I didn't like? If I didn't like a particular Batman story... are we going to go all freudian there too? Or just say "nope, didn't work for me" and be happy to move onto the next option...

Because this is a discussion board, and “I liked/didn’t like the movie” can quickly become boring. No one is forcing you to ask deeper questions, it’s something I find interesting.

Whose gonna pay the Psychiatrist so we can get to the root of these deep issues?

Why so dramatic?

A company the size of Disney can certainly offer a diverse set of films... they've done it for decades with their different studios, banners, etc.

As I said, my theory is that Disney had data showing that playing to the legacy audience is detrimental to their efforts to connect with emerging audiences.

Where Disney has planted their stake, and caused a riff of late (IMO) is by trying to bow beat people into one shared conscious by taking these topics and mashing them up either in their headline stuff or by these remake examples. Disney is forcing the issue themselves instead of letting people gravitate to what is attractive to them.

I’m sure this feels true for people who share your ideology. There are other ways to view it that don’t require Disney to fall into social agendas and conspiracies.

Some blowhards are always going to nitpick content no matter what just because of what studio made it... but then when you look at the stupidity that is this Snow White remake.. and monster unneeded films like TLM... you can't just blame audiences. This is Disney making direct concerted efforts to go a certain path.. and frankly dividing a lot more people than unifying.

Again, I agree that Disney is making deliberate decisions. I just don’t think it’s for the reasons you suspect.

 

[flynnibus]

I know when I see the Wish trailer... it somehow looks like a Disney knock-off instead of a Disney film. Nothing in the 30sec youtube ads I've seen makes me go 'ooo I wanna see that'

 

[_caleb]

I know when I see the Wish trailer... it somehow looks like a Disney knock-off instead of a Disney film. Nothing in the 30sec youtube ads I've seen makes me go 'ooo I wanna see that'

I’m pretty sure you don’t want all of Disney’s animated films to look/seem the same. Yet you offer this take. What would you have them do?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Because I didn't compare the MOVIES - I said "it got the ghostbusters 3 treatment" -- highlighting the forced repeat of a story and people attacking critics as being against the gender flip instead of just being against the script period.

I disagree with you probably 50-60% of the time…but I don’t know if I’ve ever agreed with someone more?

And you’re far from “anti-Disney” or the Disney establishment. For you to highlight this…verified the depth of the problem they’re dealing with in their approach to the franchises.

 

[_caleb]

I disagree with you probably 50-60% of the time…but I don’t know if I’ve ever agreed with someone more?

And you’re far from “anti-Disney” or the Disney establishment. For you to highlight this…verified the depth of the problem they’re dealing with in their approach to the franchises.

The “problem” at hand is Disney’s box office, right? And some of you seem to be in alignment on what a main cause of this problem is. Just to be clear, some of us aren’t on “the other side” of whatever issues you have w/the company. It’s difficult to have good discussion when several here see everything through what seems to be a particularly rigid ideological lens.

 

[flynnibus]

I’m pretty sure you don’t want all of Disney’s animated films to look/seem the same. Yet you offer this take. What would you have them do?

Well first.. after watching an ad I should at least know what the film kinda is supposed to be about...

It should have some hook that makes me want more.. should have some scene/dialog/visual that is memorable and leaves me wanting more.

I got none of that from the ad. I can't even tell you what the premise of the film is supposed to be. Their short format advertising is just bad.

Going back now and trying to watch the full length trailer there is more there... but Disney already failed because their short format ad didn't make me seek out the full length trailer. I only went it watched it here to give them another chance to try to cover what I felt they missed in their other marketing to me.

The visuals of this film are like this weird mashup... they have some of the human character design from other Disney films.. but then other characters like the King look very different. The environments are like this wierd uncanny valley between too much realism/depth vs the character designs. The characters have this weird matte look where they are trying to be 3d, but yet everything is muted down to these flats... like its trying to mimmic some sort of cel style, but then you have visuals like this...

And then designs like this...

Is that Olaf's brother next to Alfredo from Ratatoulie? Is is it the guy from Cloudy with Meatballs?

The marketing just does absolutely nothing to make me want to see the film.

 

[flynnibus]

Because this is a discussion board, and “I liked/didn’t like the movie” can quickly become boring. No one is forcing you to ask deeper questions, it’s something I find interesting.

I already said why I didn't like the film... yet people don't accept those and want 'deeper' answers. No, sometimes it's just personal tastes. Why do I like rainbow sherbert more than chocolate? Sometimes it's just what works for you. The topic here is 'public reception' -- Not film school study. The topic is how the studio's output is being received by the gen pop. For those kinds of topics it's best to just focus on that... people's response... else you're just going to end up trying to tell someone why they should have felt something else, and that's never going to work.

I’m sure this feels true for people who share your ideology. There are other ways to view it that don’t require Disney to fall into social agendas and conspiracies.

My 'ideology'? How about... just observations from watching the Studio's output for 45+ years and being a student of it's history and creators for the last 25+. Maybe someone is just giving their view, instead of fighting for some team or agenda.

Again, I agree that Disney is making deliberate decisions. I just don’t think it’s for the reasons you suspect.

I really don't care what their reasons are. For the context of this thread - we can all categorically see their output is not resonating with the general public at the levels the company expects it to be.

The company has always gone through waves/periods of facing becoming irrelevant due to holding onto ideals/values probably long past their due. Usually the company broke out of those periods either through technology breakthroughs or surges of creative success and continuity (musical leads, certain directors, etcs). Of late, they've lacked that, and the formula they keep trying to milk (these live action remakes) they keeps missing... and Pixar which they used to be able to count on has gone too heavy hearted.

I watched Elemental the other week for the first time... it's just ok. Nothing to write home about, nothing really stand out in the characters. Just a cute emotional relationship film that I'll likely never watch again.. even tho I have it right at my fingertips in D+.

I don't think they are in touch with what the people is yearning for.

 

[_caleb]

Well first.. after watching an ad I should at least know what the film kinda is supposed to be about...

It should have some hook that makes me want more.. should have some scene/dialog/visual that is memorable and leaves me wanting more.

I got none of that from the ad. I can't even tell you what the premise of the film is supposed to be. Their short format advertising is just bad.

Going back now and trying to watch the full length trailer there is more there... but Disney already failed because their short format ad didn't make me seek out the full length trailer. I only went it watched it here to give them another chance to try to cover what I felt they missed in their other marketing to me.

This list of reasons the advertising for Wish didn’t make you want to go see the film brings to mind my post from a few minutes ago where I suggested that maybe you weren’t the target audience for Disney films anymore.

The visuals of this film are like this weird mashup... they have some of the human character design from other Disney films.. but then other characters like the King look very different. The environments are like this wierd uncanny valley between too much realism/depth vs the character designs. The characters have this weird matte look where they are trying to be 3d, but yet everything is muted down to these flats... like its trying to mimmic some sort of cel style, but then you have visuals like this...
View attachment 753135

And then designs like this...

View attachment 753137

Is that Olaf's brother next to Alfredo from Ratatoulie? Is is it the guy from Cloudy with Meatballs?

The marketing just does absolutely nothing to make me want to see the film.

I think these are fair criticisms of the art direction. I remember similar critiques of films with more unique styles not feeling “Disney” or maybe being similar to competitor’s films.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The “problem” at hand is Disney’s box office, right? And some of you seem to be in alignment on what a main cause of this problem is. Just to be clear, some of us aren’t on “the other side” of whatever issues you have w/the company. It’s difficult to have good discussion when several here see everything through what seems to be a particularly rigid ideological lens.

The problem is Disney’s failure to perform at the box office…which - cause Disney - drives the longterm value and pull of the name across all their segments.

I find it funny that there seems to be this denial of the truth on this.

Big gates get more eyes, sell more stuff, create more fans…come back strong…or better yet - never leave.

So why are they failing here?
It can be several things.

So I invite you to discuss what that is? As opposed to blaming the messenger with the results. Same goes for the same 3 people who like the “it’s only a couple of people here…” blame posts.

Nobody here has the slightest to do with a year of flops. Not one bit…follow the cheese to find the rat responsible

…I…can…SEE…you… there…

 

[flynnibus]

This list of reasons the advertising for Wish didn’t make you want to go see the film brings to mind my post from a few minutes ago where I suggested that maybe you weren’t the target audience for Disney films anymore.

Well I just told you I watched Elemental, Haunted Mansion, and TLM in the last month or so. So if you want to tell a lifelong Disney fan 'well maybe you just aren't our audience anymore'... Well maybe you're part of the mindset leading to Disney failing to identify the market they've banked on generations.

I think these are fair criticisms of the art direction. I remember similar critiques of films with more unique styles not feeling “Disney” or maybe being similar to competitor’s films.

I'm trying to think of some of the shorts they've done where they've shown similar style with the lighting and texture... it's this weird inflection point between something that looks rendered vs painted.

Styles should always evolve, but there is also favorable elements of 'familiarity' and other elements that come with style and expectations. But this trailer keeps feeling like a mashup of recycled stuff to me instead of something cohesive.

I mean, Disney is known for their well worn tropes like the animal sidekick... but the best punch line they got from this is... "my butt found it"?

I mean... if I were maybe 4 I might find that funny? And I'm not critiquing because of toilet humor... but simply because it's just not funny or that imaginative.

 

[_caleb]

The problem is Disney’s failure to perform at the box office…which - cause Disney - drives the longterm value and pull of the name across all their segments.

I find it funny that their seems to be this denial of the truth on this time.

Big gates get more eyes, sell more stuff, create more fans…come back strong…or better yet - never leave.

So why are they failing here?
It can be several things.

So I invite you to discuss what that is? As opposed to blaming the messenger with the results. Same goes for the same 3 people who like the “it’s only a couple of people here…” blame posts.

Nobody here has the slightest to do with a year of flops. Not one bit…follow the cheese to find the rat responsible

…I…can…SEE…you… there…

I’m not sure what you mean here. But I think the box office struggles are because Disney is out ahead of changes to moviegoing audiences.

Despite some recent outliers, pleasing the masses isn’t really a thing anymore. The old formulas don’t work. Disney is exploring alternatives, and it’s alienating them from legacy audiences. Hence a year (or more) of poor box office performance.