Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Reality when retelling an established story? No - that’s activism
It’s not effective “activism”
Either…because even if it’s good…it has to fight uphill due to preconceived opinions.

Tell NEW stories…stop being lazy stock slaves.

If you want to be “the best”…act like it.

And yet another reason why Bob has to go…it’s long past time. Similar to when evil old Mikey called Diane the weekend before his departure announcement - which was incredibly symbolic and appropriate - and she told him “it’s time”

Tina Turner was wrong - we DO need another hero
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Tell me again why you didn't make time to go see it in the theater again? Nothing I said is off base. We saw a significant drop off from the other renaissance remake films. I didn't call the film bad. I said it wasn't what most wanted. If it was the film most fans wanted, why did we see such a big drop? It didn't do near what it should have.

If churning out great films such as mermaid can't get one of Disneys biggest defenders into the theater, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not really sure why wanting Disney to make higher quality movies and tv series is such a controversial take with you.

Absolutely he is, as well as a group of others on here. It's just easier to blame the audience than to actually hold Disney to a higher quality standard. It's always the same take, "you hate star wars and marvel because you're anti diversity!!!" Yet when examples of these same "toxic" fans fully embracing diversity gets completely ignored.
How many times are you going to ask me the same questions I’ve already answered?

I have absolutely no obligation to go to a theater to demonstrate support for Disney movies or any other movies. I go when I don’t want to wait for something to come on TV.

Most Disney animated films since the mid 80’s are not in my wheelhouse. Why? Because I was born in 1971 and I was a teenager by then. What will please me (or you) today in those films should be the least of Disney’s concerns. These movies are primarily made with children in mind, hopefully with a secondary track to keep the adults who take kids to the movies (and buy another ticket) entertained enough.

I’m perfectly content to see them on TV or not at all. Every once in awhile, I’ll hear or read something that is enough to get me to watch one at home. Every once in awhile, I fully enjoy it. (Ratatouille, Coco.)

When a new Disney animated film comes out, I don’t expect them to cater or market to me. If it happens to reach me, great. I think they’re wiser catering to young moms. Catering to young moms means most of them aren’t going to care if there’s a half-blip of a gay person on screen for a half-second.
Many will (gasp!) appreciate it.

To the group:

When I was a kid, there were no big animated movies made about minority families. When I watched Coco as an adult, I related to the grandmother/grandson relationship, and their ethnicity faded into the background.

That film would have benefited me as a child to explicitly show how other cultures still share the same kinds of things shared in my culture.

It would have benefited others, whether they know it or not, who think the default starting point of everything is straight and white, and anything else is different or represents change. They wouldn’t think that way if Coco and Encanto had been in the mix from the jump. Kids today will not think that way, and that represents an improvement to society as a whole.

Do they not realize there are Latino families who deserve a film centered on them, regardless of whether or not it appeals to old white people? Especially one written in such a way that it should appeal to everyone whose heart is open?
 
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Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Because they have stories featuring people who happen to not be straight and/or white????????
Not at all…

Swapping characters of stories already known comes off as activism…even if it’s well intentioned/made

Little mermaid was a terrible idea…the coroner can speak now. Doesn’t mean they absolutely don’t need to diversify their movies…they do 100%

But don’t make that mistake…advance and learn from it
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Reality when retelling an established story? No - that’s activism
That comment says more about you.

Forgetting the originals for a moment: if those films were made new today, that’s how they would be made, and you know that.

Therefore, that’s how they should be made - for current audiences, not old ones.

And as a member of the old one, I’m not bothered by the new ones, so I know the problem is not with the films. They’re not inherently wrong or something.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
It’s ok not to like the newer approach. But if someone is critical and primarily focuses on the gender/race/ethnicity of the characters (or the director), or seems to dismiss the film out of hand, it seems like preconceived biases might be at play.

You are inserting all kinds of hate that wasn’t in the post you quoted. That’s disingenuous. When i said ‘diversity kick’, how does that infer ANY of the responses you included above? You challenged my label, i pointed out the changes. You can see the changes without being subjective about them.

It’s tricky. If they spend far less on a film that features a person of color or a woman, it’s going to come across as not really giving them full support.
Only for those who want to make it into that. No one is crying sexism because a hallmark movie is not a summer blockbuster budget.

I don’t think the paying customers are a single, pleasable block of people anymore. There isn’t a legacy audience to go back to.

There was no thanos snap. Every company is still chasing these “legacy audiences” you act as if they don’t exist anymore.

Yeah, I don’t think it’s flawless. But whatever the data is, it must be compelling if Disney would risk so much on creating content that they know isn’t likely to appeal to legacy fans, don’t you think?
Or you had someone immune from scrutiny pushing a rock uphill and wasn’t going to stop until removed…

People run blindly into walls all the time.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
How many times are you going to ask me the same questions I’ve already answered?

I have absolutely no obligation to go to a theater to demonstrate support for Disney movies or any other movies. I go when I don’t want to wait for something to come on TV.

Most Disney animated films since the mid 80’s are not in my wheelhouse. Why? Because I was born in 1971 and I was a teenager by then. What will please me (or you) today in those films should be the least of Disney’s concerns. These movies are primarily made with children in mind, hopefully with a secondary track to keep the adults who take kids to the movies (and buy another ticket) entertained enough.

I’m perfectly content to see them on TV or not at all. Every once in awhile, I’ll hear or read something that is enough to get me to watch one at home. Every once in awhile, I fully enjoy it. (Ratatouille, Coco.)

When a new Disney animated film comes out, I don’t expect them to cater or market to me. If it happens to reach me, great. I think they’re wiser catering to young moms. Catering to young moms means most of them aren’t going to care if there’s a half-blip of a gay person on screen for a half-second.
Many will (gasp!) appreciate it.

To the group:

When I was a kid, there were no big animated movies made about minority families. When I watched Coco as an adult, I related to the grandmother/grandson relationship, and their ethnicity faded into the background.

That film would have benefited me as a child to explicitly show how other cultures still share the same kind of things shared in my culture.

It would have benefited others, whether they know it or not, who think the default starting point of everything is straight and white, and anything else is different or represents change. They wouldn’t think that way if Coco and Encanto had been in the mix from the jump.

Do they not realize there are Latino families who deserve a film centered on them, regardless of whether or not it appeals to old white people? Especially one written in such a way that it should appeal to everyone whose heart is open?

I grew up in a very racist society in which almost everyone I knew said racist things - sometimes not even with malice. The vast majority would never see themselves as wrong for doing so. When I read things here that rhyme with what they said, it’s hard not to draw the parallel. And when you go “out there” and read the outright racist and homophobic stuff about these films, and come here only to read a cleaned up version that won’t get deleted, it’s equally difficult not to come to the same conclusion.
I agree with everything you said…

I would like to point out that because you don’t go to the theaters…several trouble makers in this thread would say you have no right to an opinion as elemental, little mermaid and Indy crashed 4 months ago…

That was stupid then and world class stupid now.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
With the exception of strong female characters…it’s not a question of “catching up”…it’s really proportionality
Now look at it another way:

Count up all the Disney animated films with all-white casts.

Now count up the ones with all-white casts and a minority sidekick.

Then count up the ones based on an ethnicity other than white.

Proportionality, indeed.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Now look at it another way:

Count up all the Disney animated films with all-white casts.

Now count up the ones with all-white casts and a minority sidekick.

Then count up the ones based on an ethnicity other than white.

Proportionality, indeed.
It’s terrible…but that’s history.

No one has ever successfully mined the past for future grievances. It can’t be done.

So make 50% of your stories female based, 25% “brown” and 25% LGBTQ+…

1955 and 1985 would STILL suck…and you’ll get a disproportionate, internet troll filled backlash now in this twisted world.
What sense does they make?

They can be smarter than this…”strategic”…
It’s not a 1:1 comparison…but you are well aware of the “marriage equality” messaging shift and how awesome it changed the tide…

You need smart generals calling the shots for you.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you said…

I would like to point out that because you don’t go to the theaters…several trouble makers in this thread would say you have no right to an opinion as elemental, little mermaid and Indy crashed 4 months ago…

That was stupid then and world class stupid now.
I go to the movies selectively, and always have. When I was young, it was because we were broke, and that has remained the default pattern in the back of my head.

I’ll go see something I want to see asap, or occasionally it’s just something to do to get out of the house.

I saw Indy in theaters.

I looked into going to see TLM after the hoopla got me interested - but I’m spoiled now. I’m not going unless I get the reclining heated seats with food, in a mostly empty theater, on the 1 or 2 days a week my schedule lines up with my spouse’s. That just never came together. I saw it on D+.

I had no interest in Elemental. (Believe it or not, I don’t blame Disney for that - it’s OK!!)

I did recently put it on D+ and hubby fell asleep in the first 5 minutes. I hung in for about 20 but was bored. May or may not go back to it. Again, that’s fine! I couldn’t sit through Inside Out and I know a lot of people love it. I have no reason to malign those people, nor to malign red, green or blue animated characters.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I mean, you represent your own perspective. But if that perspective sounds to someone else to be indicative of deeper issues beyond your simple conclusions, it would be on you to present compelling evidence to contradict those conclusions. Isn’t that the nature of discussion?
Of course it is. But when reasons are given, the motives are questioned as you really don't believe that, it's all just "wink wink" you don't like diversity.
I’m not sure anyone is blaming you. I think some of us would like others to at least give new things a chance. And even if, having given it a chance, they still don’t like it, maybe offer a thoughtful criticism beyond sneering, mocking, etc. (not you, but some here).
When I say blame, I'm talking about the posters who keep going after anyone who offers up any criticism of any diversity project. Just two examples are myself and when @flynnibus gave thoughts that weren't just "because it's stupid!" And those thoughts were immediately met with, you're not telling the truth. You're just mad because it's not white males, type comments.
I don’t know what this means. I don’t “go after” people.
Sorry, I was talking more about the "why does it have to devolve" statement. When I say go after, I'm talking about the constant questioning of motives and throwing the anti diversity angle back at us every time.
I mean, aren’t we all analyzing (and over analyzing) things here? Isn’t that the point beyond everyone just saying “I didn’t like this movie?” Not sure why you’d find it threatening for someone to wonder why you prefer what you prefer, or why audiences do/don’t buy tickets to a particular movie.
I don't find it threatening at all. If I say yea I don't like it, I fully expect to be questioned as to why. Again, I'm talking as to why it constantly devolves like you said. And that's the type of questioning of someones reasons, not that they are questioning. I'm all for discussion, it's why I'm here. I've been a fan since I was a child but that doesn't mean I can't question the quality of their output over the last few years. That doesn't make me a super secret culture war activist trying to take down the evil Disney. Or that I'm denying that the culture war has an impact. I won't pretend to like something in the name of diversity, I either like it or I don't.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Of course it is. But when reasons are given, the motives are questioned as you really don't believe that, it's all just "wink wink" you don't like diversity.

When I say blame, I'm talking about the posters who keep going after anyone who offers up any criticism of any diversity project. Just two examples are myself and when @flynnibus gave thoughts that weren't just "because it's stupid!" And those thoughts were immediately met with, you're not telling the truth. You're just mad because it's not white males, type comments.

Sorry, I was talking more about the "why does it have to devolve" statement. When I say go after, I'm talking about the constant questioning of motives and throwing the anti diversity angle back at us every time.

I don't find it threatening at all. If I say yea I don't like it, I fully expect to be questioned as to why. Again, I'm talking as to why it constantly devolves like you said. And that's the type of questioning of someones reasons, not that they are questioning. I'm all for discussion, it's why I'm here. I've been a fan since I was a child but that doesn't mean I can't question the quality of their output over the last few years. That doesn't make me a super secret culture war activist trying to take down the evil Disney. Or that I'm denying that the culture war has an impact. I won't pretend to like something in the name of diversity, I either like it or I don't.
What were Flynn’s substantive criticisms beyond not wanting a story of a Pakistani girl and her culture and feeling that the basic Marvel method of storytelling belonged only to Spider-Man?

Let me give you an example of a substantive criticism: budget cuts and the loss of at least one episode made the last episodes of Ms Marvel feel rushed and in particular harmed the Clan Destine element of the story. They also meant that the directorial voice, so clear and refreshing in early episodes, became muffled.

Here’s a criticism that raises questions: The focus on Pakistani culture shows the creators are condescending to me.

If your primary complaints concern the identity of the characters - she’s a girl, she’s Pakistani, she’s LGBTQ+ - then yes, the culture war begins to feel relevant.
 
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Chi84

Premium Member
If that’s not the story you want to tell - then why use that story ? use a different book.
This isn't meant to be an argument - just possibly an explanation of some of the responses.

What someone "hears" or perceives is often a function of their age, life experiences and other factors. I grew up in the '60's and '70's and some of the comments I'm seeing remind me of: Why do they [insert minority] have to have our existing [movie, ride, restaurant, school - it's a slippery slope]? We can make a separate one for them that is equal to - or maybe even better than - the one that we have for ourselves.

Inclusion seems forced at first because it's different and people aren't used to it. The more people are exposed to something the more common it seems. Some people think that's a good thing; others think it's unnecessary because there isn't a problem in the first place (or at least one that shouldn't be solved by Disney); still others don't like what's being included. The motives of those three groups are sometimes lumped together, which makes for heated arguments.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
How many times are you going to ask me the same questions I’ve already answered?
You're the one who discounted what I said with " why should I read any further?" And so why should I get lectured on why a film that was undeniably less wanted than the other renaissance films, by someone who didn't bother to see it in the theater either?
I have absolutely no obligation to go to a theater to demonstrate support for Disney movies or any other movies. I go when I don’t want to wait for something to come on TV.
Exactly! Neither do I, or anyone else. So when someone else says I'm not going to see it, maybe not jump down their throat, because you are doing the same thing. And yes, some of those saying they won't see a film, it's in bad faith. But it's not the majority by far in my opinion.
What will please me (or you) today in those films should be the least of Disney’s concerns. These movies are primarily made with children in mind, hopefully with a secondary track to keep the adults who take kids to the movies (and buy another ticket) entertained enough.
I agree to a point. Where Disney and Pixar killed it for so long is hitting that, kids and adults and in-between market. That's when you hit it big.
When I watched Coco as an adult, I related to the grandmother/grandson relationship, and their ethnicity faded into the background.
It's because it's a great movie. Not a good movie, but a great movie first and foremost.
Do they not realize there are Latino families who deserve a film centered on them, regardless of whether or not it appeals to old white people?
Of course they do. And the overwhelming majority love it. You don't do your argument any favors when you throw out "regardless of whether or not it appeals to old white people." Coco is a great counter point to the everyone hates diversity narrative. I've said it before, if you take the "controversial" stuff out of lightyear or strange world, they still don't perform much better. Why? Because they weren't that great films.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
You are inserting all kinds of hate that wasn’t in the post you quoted. That’s disingenuous.
Huh? What hate? I’m assuming you aren’t some hateful person.
When i said ‘diversity kick’, how does that infer ANY of the responses you included above? You challenged my label, i pointed out the changes. You can see the changes without being subjective about them.
You boiled it down to a “diversity kick.” To me, this suggests that you have a problem with diversity. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Also, are you claiming that your perspective is the objective one?
Only for those who want to make it into that. No one is crying sexism because a hallmark movie is not a summer blockbuster budget.
If Hallmark movies used to be the biggest blockbusters of all time but then tried to shift toward greater inclusion and diversity, this might work better as an analogy.
There was no thanos snap. Every company is still chasing these “legacy audiences” you act as if they don’t exist anymore.
I mean, American moviegoing is trending downward, theater chains aren’t doing great, and streaming is a new competition.

I don’t think legacy audience exists as a single group anymore; it’s been fractured into a thousand smaller groups with little overlap in interest and spending habits. Again, my theory is that Disney knows this and has been risking everything to try to position itself for whatever is next.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
This isn't meant to be an argument - just possibly an explanation of some of the responses.

What someone "hears" or perceives is often a function of their age, life experiences and other factors. I grew up in the '60's and '70's and some of the comments I'm seeing remind me of: Why do they [insert minority] have to have our existing [movie, ride, restaurant, school - it's a slippery slope]? We can make a separate one for them that is equal to - or maybe even better than - the one that we have for ourselves.

I totally get the "I never saw myself in XYZ..." positions, etc. I also understand when someone says "all the movies are only of this style" whatever. And I'm totally for someone saying "we should have more movies that represent X...".

A simple example from our previous generations... where there wasn't film or media that represented life for young black men. Or shows that represented real urban life challenges instead of just white bread Happy Days stuff.

But to me, that is not the same as say Hamilton. I cite Hamilton because there is no debate over the reasoning in the casting - casting non-white performers was part of a specific creative choice. This is not casting 'because this is 'reality' being represented... or color-blind casting. It was intentional.

Now I'm not saying every retelling is done the same way as Hamilton. I use it to contrast because in many projects if someone even suggests the choices are intentional, it's attacked as someone being anti-something... instead of just acknowledging people often ARE making choices. Either to specifically be color-blind, even in contrast to the subject matter, and not just 'casting the best person', or 'casting to be representative'.

But for many of the Disney remakes we are talking about - these are not films made from scratch. They are basing on stories with known content.. in addition to existing (and in many cases, cherished) interpretations. So I think it's head-in-sand when people go 'why are you bothered by XYZ change? This is representation!' etc.

Or examples when the inclusion causes specific conflicts with the character or setting. For instance, you shouldn't cast a black Roman Casear. Just the same as you shouldn't cast an overweight, lazy guy as John Wick. Their attributes conflict with the expectations of the character as known in the story.

Inclusion seems forced at first because it's different and people aren't used to it. The more people are exposed to something the more common it seems.
Inclusion is great. Inclusion that causes conflict and then telling people "You should ignore that you bigot!" is not the same thing.

I mean, if you want to tell Sleeping Beauty, but instead want to make Auroa a lesbian to be saved by her handmaid instead of the prince... go for it.. but it's not Sleeping Beauty anymore. Make your film and call it something else (See... Wicked). Or if you want to remake Romeo and Juliet but make it a same sex couple fighting for acceptance from their families... that's fine, but don't launch it as a Romeo and Juliet remake! :)

Some people think that's a good thing; others think it's unnecessary because there isn't a problem in the first place (or at least one that shouldn't be solved by Disney); still others don't like what's being included. The motives of those three groups are sometimes lumped together, which makes for heated arguments.

I think in defense of inclusion or initiatives, people attack any questioning of choices made and lump all criticism into hate buckets. Instead of being able to accept people just didn't like something because of changes or conflicts with things.

It's not insane to recognize casting involves matching the performer with THE ROLE. The ROLE can include things like gender, physical attributes, race, sexual orientation, etc. Many times, changing those attributes introduces conflict with the story as known, or the environment, etc. Not wanting a black Roman Emperor is not because you hate black people, it's not wanting the conflict between the performer and the role as known.
 

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