Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[Casper Gutman]

Whatever, location swapping. Calm down.

Anyway, I'm sure about a year or two from now we'll get the REAL truth about what happened behind the scenes on The Marvels. I suspect Nia DaCosta had a unique vision for the film that was slowly taken away from her by Kevin Feige and Disney who wanted her to stick to the generic MCU formula. She seems like she's already trying to distance herself from the film (beyond the obligated press interviews), and I suspect that's because she's not happy with the final product due to studio meddling.

I was kidding - it's weird how everyone seems to get it wrong, though.

I'd be very, very surprised if there were significant creative differences on the film. Directors are absolutely clear on what they're getting into when they take on an MCU film - their process is widely known, and the number of folks who've been involved in the process and talk about it freely within the filmmaking community make it unlikely there were any surprises. "Studio meddling" isn't really a relevant term, since the entire process is tightly controlled from start to finish, and everyone knows it. If DaCosta was unaware of what she was getting into, she'd have to have been remarkably oblivious.

I think Marvel's difficulties are multi-faceted:
1) The build-up to Infinity War and Endgame was much more of a factor then Marvel and many analysts understood, and without a clear end point, their ability to make a hit out of any character at all has diminished considerably
2) The pandemic break really harmed their momentum and hurt the D+ roll out
3) the Multiverse stuff is too complex and directionless and diminishes dramatic stakes
4) The "zeitgeist" has turned, particularly in the entertainment press, which quite frankly has been eager to push a "fall of the MCU" narrative from the moment the series began
5) Ant-Man and Eternals underwhelmed, but I think the significance of this can be overstated - Marvel survived a few stinkers on its way up, and their impact is only really significant because of its interaction with other factors
6) The box office has changed post covid and no one really knows what the new normal is - despite isolated mega-hits like Mario and Barbie, a lot of films, even well-reviewed ones, have underperformed dramatically
7) It may also not be very good - we'll know in a few days

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I could not possibly disagree with this more. I found nothing didactic about the show whatsoever - the family traditions seemed both organic and natural, not overwhelming the stories or characters but instead giving them a flavor I hadn't experienced before. What in the text makes you think they were trying to "broaden people's horizons" or "elevate her culture?" Do you feel that is simply inherent in depictions of unfamiliar cultures?

Being annoyed by discussion of the partition seems a bit like being annoyed by mention of the holocaust in films featuring Magneto. Its part of the characters and their story.

As for your last sentence - Ghostbusters 3 was awful for many reasons - terrible direction, a reliance on rambling improv in a story not suited to that kind of humor, bad characters, a fundamentally unclear reason for existing - absolutely none of that applies to Ms Marvel. I'm trying to give your comments the benefit of the doubt, but they do come across (especially the Ghostbusters comment) as complaining about the show being "woke." If I'm being unfair, I welcome clarification.

Of course you disagree…but the mass audience doesn’t

And Disney is for mass audiences. That’s how it maintains its gravitas.

It’s the entire problem they are ham handedly wrestling with

 

[MisterPenguin]

And from a purely cold and calculating business perspective, it probably would have helped to have a male character be on the team

Nick Fury


Also... cold and calculating is an attempt to rope in those already at war with Disney. No amount of pandering to them will actually get them in the theater. Ask DC how their recent mostly male-lead superhero movies have been doing.

 

[ABQ]

Nick Fury


Also... cold and calculating is an attempt to rope in those already at war with Disney. No amount of pandering to them will actually get them in the theater. Ask DC how their recent mostly male-lead superhero movies have been doing.

Would love to know why DC couldn't make things work with Henry Cavill, that's a different topic for a different thread though.

 

[flynnibus]

I the family traditions seemed both organic and natural, not overwhelming the stories or characters but instead giving them a flavor I hadn't experienced before.

What in the text makes you think they were trying to "broaden people's horizons" or "elevate her culture?" Do you feel that is simply inherent in depictions of unfamiliar cultures?

It was more than half the show…

What was a point about the mosque harassment for her story?
Or the friend running for election?
Or her brother’s story…
Or her mothers shame…
And can go on. The story is over burdened with trying to tell a pakistani immigrant story.

Being annoyed by discussion of the partition seems a bit like being annoyed by mention of the holocaust in films featuring Magneto.

Well if you find somewhere where i said that… besure to bring up such analogies. But until then… strawman.

As for your last sentence - Ghostbusters 3 was awful for many reasons - terrible direction, a reliance on rambling improv in a story not suited to that kind of humor, bad characters, a fundamentally unclear reason for existing - absolutely none of that applies to Ms Marvel.

I brought it up because it parallels on many fronts. Take same story (peter parker nerd struggles, teen love, parent struggles, hidden unexpected power, hidden identity, turn to neighborhood savior, etc), gender flip it, don’t do well, and when people don’t like the product or choices people cry about people just not being cultured enough. No… it’s contrived and overbearing.

It was like TFA…. Such a blatant plot rip that it really took away from it. The show clearly tried to speak to and reach different audiences… it wasn’t just coincidence. I watched ghe show weekly… but i can understand how many wouldn’t have been engaged by it.

I am curious to see the film.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Nick Fury


Also... cold and calculating is an attempt to rope in those already at war with Disney. No amount of pandering to them will actually get them in the theater. Ask DC how their recent mostly male-lead superhero movies have been doing.

…maybe one that isn’t 80?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Would love to know why DC couldn't make things work with Henry Cavill, that's a different topic for a different thread though.

I think it’s more awful movie scripts/idea

Cavill looks the part better than anyone…IMHO

 

[Ghost93]

Nick Fury


Also... cold and calculating is an attempt to rope in those already at war with Disney. No amount of pandering to them will actually get them in the theater. Ask DC how their recent mostly male-lead superhero movies have been doing.

I'll admit I forgot about Nick Fury, although him coming off the heels of the widely panned Secret Invasion doesn't help.

 

[Casper Gutman]

It was more than half the show…

What was a point about the mosque harassment for her story?
Or the friend running for election?
Or her brother’s story…
Or her mothers shame…
And can go on. The story is over burdened with trying to tell a pakistani immigrant story.



Well if you find somewhere where i said that… besure to bring up such analogies. But until then… strawman.




I brought it up because it parallels on many fronts. Take same story (peter parker nerd struggles, teen love, parent struggles, hidden unexpected power, hidden identity, turn to neighborhood savior, etc), gender flip it, don’t do well, and when people don’t like the product or choices people cry about people just not being cultured enough. No… it’s contrived and overbearing.

It was like TFA…. Such a blatant plot rip that it really took away from it. The show clearly tried to speak to and reach different audiences… it wasn’t just coincidence. I watched ghe show weekly… but i can understand how many wouldn’t have been engaged by it.

I am curious to see the film.

Many superheroes follow the "personal struggles and superhuman shenanigans" formula - its not just Parker. In fact, Marvel's entire formula, Stan Lee's entire innovation, the single thing that launched the Marvel age in 1961, was the merging of soap opera with superhero. That's Marvel at the most fundamental level. Yet for some reason, you read the highlighting of another culture in this context as "contrived and overbearing." You assume that the white male version of the story is the normal one, the organic one, while anything else is a "flip."

In fact, moving beyond the most basic skeleton that defines all Marvel tales, the story of Ms Marvel is entirely different from Spider-Man's - its a tale about a second generation immigrant and her family struggling to come to terms with both her new culture and her old, of a girl trying to find her place in her family's heritage. That's the point of all the elements you listed. The gender and heritage of the character isn't a marketing tool as in GB3, its absolutely fundamental to the story. It IS a Pakistani immigrant story! That's THE STORY! You dismiss all of that, the entire point of the series, as "contrived and boring" in order to boil it down to its most basic elements, the basic elements of ALL Marvel stories (soap opera with superheroes) to claim that it's ripping off what everyone knows is rightfully Peter Parker's story. (By the way, the MCU Parker actually does directly borrow huge story elements from Miles Morales - Ned, the school for the gifted, the increased social acceptance - but for some strange reason THAT'S not an issue).

You liken it to Ghostbusters 3, an incredibly cynical film that was awful for a host of identifiable reasons that had nothing to do with the gender of the leads - yet you don't identify any such reasons, any directorial or cinematographic or writing issues, with Ms Marvel.

Ms Marvel is a problem for a lot on this board because the common line is, "I just want Marvel to make good product, I don't care about the culture war stuff." But here's a show with a 98 on Rotten Tomatoes, universal acclaim, a unique setting and character, a critically haled young lead - precisely the content those posters claim to want - and the reply is, "well... not like that."

 

[Ghost93]

It was more than half the show…

What was a point about the mosque harassment for her story?
Or the friend running for election?
Or her brother’s story…
Or her mothers shame…
And can go on. The story is over burdened with trying to tell a pakistani immigrant story.

It's called fleshing out the characters. All of the details about Kamala's family and friends help make the characters more believable and three-dimensional.

My only complaint with the show, however, was that I think it should have been split into two seasons as it felt rushed. Season one should have all been about her learning to deal with her powers and how that impacts her relationships with friends and family in Jersey City. Season two should have been about her unlocking the mysteries of her family's past and making the trip to Pakistan and defeating the Clan Destine. As is, the show tries to juggle too many plot elements and doesn't do enough justice to them.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Secret invasion started from nowhere…highlighted Mendelssohn and Clarke…

…and ended up back to nowhere.

 

[Casper Gutman]

It's called fleshing out the characters. All of the details about Kamala's family and friends help make the characters more believable and three-dimensional.

My only complaint with the show, however, was that I think it should have been split into two seasons as it felt rushed. Season one should have all been about her learning to deal with her powers and how that impacts her relationships with friends and family in Jersey City. Season two should have been about her unlocking the mysteries of her family's past and making the trip to Pakistan and defeating the Clan Destine. As is, the show tries to juggle too many plot elements and doesn't do enough justice to them.

I agree completely. If I recall, the show lost at least one episode due to budget cuts, which was the cause of one of the show's actual issues, a rushed back half.

And as long as I'm discussing genuine failures - SI was an unforgiveable dog, bad on many levels, the first MC product that really did point to a broken process. Falcon had great promise but the writing and directing were absolutely devastated by the pandemic, destroying the series thematic coherence. The last episode of WandaVision failed to live up to the rest of the great series. She-Hulk lacked the sharp writing it needed to pull off its intriguing but tricky premise and descended into sit-com crud. Moon Knight wasted incredibly strong characters on a back half that lost its way. Ant-Man 3 failed because it lost sight of the core strengths of the property. Lest it be said I defend anything Disney produces.

 

[flynnibus]

Many superheroes follow the "personal struggles and superhuman shenanigans" formula - its not just Parker. In fact, Marvel's entire formula, Stan Lee's entire innovation, the single thing that launched the Marvel age in 1961, was the merging of soap opera with superhero.

Yes, at the 30k ft level... but at the 5k foot level we find two teen stories that basically shadow each other. So it's not just 'same genre' - it's the same freaking mechanisms and story elements.

That's Marvel at the most fundamental level. Yet for some reason, you read the highlighting of another culture in this context as "contrived and overbearing." You assume that the white male version of the story is the normal one, the organic one, while anything else is a "flip."

Do you have a problem remembering more than one post ago? You say "highlighting of another culture" - where as I said it was more than half the show after you even questioned what I meant by "I didn’t want a mini series on pakistan or their family traditions". The series invested far too much to her neighborhood and her background... which resulted in a story I just didn't care for.

In fact, moving beyond the most basic skeleton that defines all Marvel tales, the story of Ms Marvel is entirely different from Spider-Man's - its a tale about a second generation immigrant and her family struggling to come to terms with both her new culture and her old, of a girl trying to find her place in her family's heritage. That's the point of all the elements you listed.

Meanwhile... her Marvel story and progression is basically identical to spiderman. It's spiderman with a pakistani immigrant girl host. I don't care for that story.

The gender and heritage of the character isn't a marketing tool as in GB3, its absolutely fundamental to the story. It IS a Pakistani immigrant story! That's THE STORY!

Great - you've come around to my point where I said "I didn’t want a mini series on pakistan or their family traditions. [...] vs a story i was interested in."

You dismiss all of that, the entire point of the series, as "contrived and boring" in order to boil it down to its most basic elements, the basic elements of ALL Marvel stories (soap opera with superheroes) to claim that it's ripping off what everyone knows is rightfully Peter Parker's story.

Remind me again, In the MCU - how many geeky teens discovering love and struggling with their hidden superhero identity, in a new york neighborhood are there? (Yes, I'm calling Jersey City a NY neighborhood even tho its across the river).

You liken it to Ghostbusters 3, an incredibly cynical film that was awful for a host of identifiable reasons that had nothing to do with the gender of the leads - yet you don't identify any such reasons, any directorial or cinematographic or writing issues, with Ms Marvel.

Because I didn't compare the MOVIES - I said "it got the ghostbusters 3 treatment" -- highlighting the forced repeat of a story and people attacking critics as being against the gender flip instead of just being against the script period.

Ms Marvel is a problem for a lot on this board because the common line is, "I just want Marvel to make good product, I don't care about the culture war stuff." But here's a show with a 98 on Rotten Tomatoes, universal acclaim, a unique setting and character, a critically haled young lead - precisely the content those posters claim to want - and the reply is, "well... not like that."

It's not that hard... i said it in my first post "a story I just didn't care for".

Maybe many people will say they don't care for Peter Parker's story... or Bruce Wayne's... because they don't relate to their origin story. That's fine by me... I'm not trying to convince people to like things they didn't. But if they don't go and the sales suffer because of it... it's fine to point out the story just didn't connect with them.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Yes, at the 30k ft level... but at the 5k foot level we find two teen stories that basically shadow each other. So it's not just 'same genre' - it's the same freaking mechanisms and story elements.



Do you have a problem remembering more than one post ago? You say "highlighting of another culture" - where as I said it was more than half the show after you even questioned what I meant by "I didn’t want a mini series on pakistan or their family traditions". The series invested far too much to her neighborhood and her background... which resulted in a story I just didn't care for.



Meanwhile... her Marvel story and progression is basically identical to spiderman. It's spiderman with a pakistani immigrant girl host. I don't care for that story.



Great - you've come around to my point where I said "I didn’t want a mini series on pakistan or their family traditions. [...] vs a story i was interested in."


Remind me again, In the MCU - how many geeky teens discovering love and struggling with their hidden superhero identity, in a new york neighborhood are there? (Yes, I'm calling Jersey City a NY neighborhood even tho its across the river).



Because I didn't compare the MOVIES - I said "it got the ghostbusters 3 treatment" -- highlighting the forced repeat of a story and people attacking critics as being against the gender flip instead of just being against the script period.



It's not that hard... i said it in my first post "a story I just didn't care for".

Maybe many people will say they don't care for Peter Parker's story... or Bruce Wayne's... because they don't relate to their origin story. That's fine by me... I'm not trying to convince people to like things they didn't. But if they don't go and the sales suffer because of it... it's fine to point out the story just didn't connect with them.

"This story is too much like Spider-Man's! I hate the ways this story is different from Spider-Man!"

I'm not the one viewing this story from 30k feet in order to make its outlines so broad it can be labelled a rip off of Spidey.

You say critics were "against the script generally" but you haven't identified a single issue with the script! You don't like the ethnicity of the lead or the focus on her experiences, but that's not a problem with the script!

Ok. You didn't

want a mini series on pakistan or their family traditions

That's your prerogative. It sure doesn't help dispel the idea that one of Marvel's major problems is culture war stuff and people rejecting diverse characters and stories regardless of their quality.

 

[flynnibus]

"This story is too much like Spider-Man's! I hate the ways this story is different from Spider-Man!"

FFS - if you can't read - I'm not going to bother reading your posts. You literally change people's statements and attack them.. either to fuel your own need or simply because you can't actually understand what's said. Welcome to ignore.

 

[TP2000]

Fascinating dialogue between you two, @flynnibus and @Casper Gutman. Really quite interesting to follow as a non Marvel fan.

I had no idea this Ms. Marvel show leaned so heavily into the Pakistani immigrant angle. So that got me wondering "How many people of Pakistani descent now live in North America? Is this a big new audience demographic I had no idea about?".

Per Google, as of latest census figures from 2021 there are...

• 629,946 people of Pakistani descent living in the United States
• 303,260 people of Pakistani descent living in Canada (Almost all of them in the Toronto area)

Let's round up and say that's 1 Million people currently living in the USA and Canada of Pakistani descent. Out of 372 Million people combined in those two countries. Not a lot. Disney+ is not available in Pakistan.

The Nielsen audience figures for Ms. Marvel were very low, not many Marvel fans seemed to want to tune in. Perhaps that wasn't the best financial strategy to go after such a small Pakistani audience demographic so heavily?

 

[Disney Irish]

Fascinating dialogue between you two, @flynnibus and @Casper Gutman. Really quite interesting to follow as a non Marvel fan.

I had no idea this Ms. Marvel show leaned so heavily into the Pakistani immigrant angle. So that got me wondering "How many people of Pakistani descent now live in North America? Is this a big new audience demographic I had no idea about?".

Per Google, as of latest census figures from 2021 there are...

• 629,946 people of Pakistani descent living in the United States
• 303,260 people of Pakistani descent living in Canada (Almost all of them in the Toronto area)

Let's round up and say that's 1 Million people currently living in the USA and Canada of Pakistani descent. Out of 372 Million people combined in those two countries. Not a lot. Disney+ is not available in Pakistan.

The Nielsen audience figures for Ms. Marvel were very low, not many Marvel fans seemed to want to tune in. Perhaps that wasn't the best financial strategy to go after such a small Pakistani audience demographic so heavily?

Just because its a story about Pakistani immigrants doesn't mean that is its only or even core target audience. An audience need not be made up of the same demographics of the main characters.

Also D+ and the MCU shows are seen outside of the US and Canada. D+ is available in more than 60 countries, some of which most certainly do watch the MCU shows.

 

[Ghost93]

Just because its a story about Pakistani immigrants doesn't mean that is its only or even core target audience. An audience need not be made up of the same demographics of the main characters.

Also D+ and the MCU shows are seen outside of the US and Canada. D+ is available in more than 60 countries, some of which most certainly do watch the MCU shows.

Also, the number of Pakistani immigrants in the U.S. is irrelevant. Isn't the point of movies and TV shows to allow you to experience what life is like in someone else's shoes? To open you up to new cultures and ideas?

 

[Disney Irish]

Also, the number of Pakistani immigrants in the U.S. is irrelevant. Isn't the point of movies and TV shows to allow you to experience what life is like in someone else's shoes? To open you up to new cultures and ideas?

Yep, that is basically what I was alluding to.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Just because its a story about Pakistani immigrants doesn't mean that is its only or even core target audience. An audience need not be made up of the same demographics of the main characters.

What are you talking about?

The Netflix Daredevil series was only for Catholics since Matt Murdock was constantly talking to and confessing to his parish priest.