DHS Soundstage 1 Renovation - Toy Storia Mania expansion

[BrerJon]

Again, The Disney SEA version is not a good comparison because the make up of the crowds at our two parks is VERY different. DCA is a much better comparison... which you sneakily didn't mention.

DisneySea looks set for 15M guests this year, DHS (or Disney's Five Rides as I call it) gets 10M, DCA gets 8M.

Now DisneySea has no shortage of things for little kids to do, so should, in theory, have proportionately comparable lines to DCA to prove or disprove whether adding more attractions reduces Toy Story lines.

I would say the average wait time for TSM at DisneySea, without Fastpass, in the middle of the day, is about 180 minutes. DFR's average wait time, without Fastpass in peak time, is about 90 minutes. DCA's (guessing for if it had Fastpass) would probably be about 45.

Adjusting the numbers for every park to get the same 10M guests DFR does, DisneySea's lines would be 120 minutes (30 minutes longer than Florida's) and DCA would be a little under 60 minutes.

So in a park where there is lots for all ages to do, a hugely popular TSM could have a line anywhere from an hour to two hours, which it pretty much already does in Florida, so this doesn't prove things either way. But why is it so much more popular in Japan and Florida than California? I suspect it's something to do with the location, presentation and demographic appeal of the ride.

DisneySea mainly appeals to adults and teenagers, although it has a ton of kids rides too (a whole Little Mermaid pavilion of them), as a result it's not predominantly families with kids lining up for Toy Story - it's mainly teenagers who like the video game side of it, and the trendiness of it being the latest thing. Also the Coney Island theming is a bit more mature (and the Woody head is downright creepy).

Whereas in Disney's Five Rides, Toy Story is stroller city, and gets its lines because it's the only thing without a height restriction that isn't a show, and the external theming screams little kids, with building blocks and bright colours.

How does this impact things? I don't know, I just think it's important to note that while the ride is the same, the presentation and marketing of all three versions is very different.

EDIT: Fixed this post up from my original as I got the TDS figures wrong - I was counting TDL as well by mistake.

 

[Next Big Thing]

That's my point. I can agree that it's overrated (though I do enjoy it), but I cannot agree that it's not popular with a huge number of Disney guests. Adding a bunch of other rides at DHS isn't going to make TSMM not popular -- it may change people's wait tolerance a bit, but many/most people going into the park will want to ride it at least once and many will want to ride multiple time if possible.

You'd have to add a whole bunch (like 5-10) good family friendly rides before a significant dent is made in TSMM's wait times at DHS as currently constructed. Adding 2 or 3 family rides just means that guests will go on those rides in addition to wanting to ride TSMM.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much though is that if they ever extended the hours of DHS, that this would help increase supply from the ride and alleviate some of the waits. That's another tack that can be considered besides an additional track.

People may try and refute you on this, but I think you are right. TSMM has an insane re-ridability factor among groups and families because of the competitive nature, so because of that, the line will always stay fairly long, even while other attractions are added.

 

[Mike S]

DisneySea gets 30M guests a year, DHS (or Disney's Five Rides as I call it) gets 10M, DCA gets 8M.

Now DisneySea has no shortage of things for little kids to do, so should, in theory, have proportionately comparable lines to DCA to prove or disprove whether adding more attractions reduces Toy Story lines.

I would say the average wait time for TSM at DisneySea, without Fastpass, in the middle of the day, is about 180 minutes. DFR's average wait time, without Fastpass in peak time, is about 90 minutes. DCA's (guessing for if it had Fastpass) would probably be about 45.

Adjusting the numbers for every park to get the same 10M guests DFR does, DisneySea's lines would be 60 minutes (30 minutes shorter than Florida's) and DCA would be a little under that.

So from DisneySea and DCA's numbers we can learn that in a 10M visitor park with tons for all ages to do, and lots of kid rides, an insanely popular TSM should have a line of 60 minutes, instead of the 90 minutes it has now in WDW.

However the caveat is there's something that skews numbers higher in both Florida and Japan than DCA, and that's the location, presentation and demographic appeal of the ride.

DisneySea mainly appeals to adults and teenagers, although it has a ton of kids rides too (a whole Little Mermaid pavilion of them), as a result it's not predominantly families with kids lining up for Toy Story - it's mainly teenagers who like the video game side of it, and the trendiness of it being the latest thing. Also the Coney Island theming is a bit more mature (and the Woody head is downright creepy).

Whereas in Disney's Five Rides, Toy Story is stroller city, and gets its lines because it's the only thing without a height restriction that isn't a show, and the external theming screams little kids, with building blocks and bright colours.

If there were more kids things to do, and they didn't spend so long doing multiple TSMs, would Florida's TSM attract an older crowd in the same numbers to fill up the space left? Are there older who riders tend not to bother now because of the theming, because Toy Story is old news, or just because of the current line length? I'm not sure, but I do think it has an impact on the discussion, as while the rides are the same, the presentation and marketing of them is very different.

That number can't be right. I thought MK was the #1 most visited park in the world and that only gets 18M

 

[BrerJon]

That number can't be right. I thought MK was the #1 most visited park in the world and that only get 18M

Oh you're right, I accidentally took the figure for the whole of Tokyo, including both parks. I'll have to edit my post!

 

[MichWolv]

DisneySea gets 30M guests a year, DHS (or Disney's Five Rides as I call it) gets 10M, DCA gets 8M.

Right number for DHS, but not TDS.

RankAmusement parkLocation2008[1]2009[2]2010[3]2011[4]2012[5]2013[6]
1Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA17,063,00017,233,00016,972,00017,142,00017,536,00018,588,000
2Tokyo Disneyland at Tokyo Disney ResortTokyo, Japan14,293,00013,646,00014,452,00013,996,00014,847,00017,214,000
3Disneyland at Disneyland ResortAnaheim, California, USA14,721,00015,900,00015,980,00016,140,00015,963,00016,202,000
4Tokyo DisneySea at Tokyo Disney ResortTokyo, Japan12,498,00012,004,00012,663,00011,930,00012,656,00014,084,000
5Epcot at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA10,935,00010,990,00010,825,00010,825,00011,063,00011,229,000
6Disneyland Park at Disneyland ParisMarne-la-Vallée, France12,688,00012,740,00010,500,00010,990,00011,200,00010,430,000
7Disney's Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA9,540,0009,590,0009,686,0009,783,0009,998,00010,198,000
8Disney's Hollywood Studios at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA9,608,0009,700,0009,603,0009,699,0009,912,00010,110,000
9Universal Studios JapanOsaka, Japan8,300,0008,000,0008,160,0008,500,0009,700,00010,100,000
10Disney California Adventure at Disneyland ResortAnaheim, California, USA5,566,0006,095,0006,287,0006,341,0007,775,0008,514,000

 

[rle4lunch]

TSMM at DCA still gets decent waits despite not having FP. I think it is definitely proof that the ride itself is popular for being a well received ride, not just for a lack of things to do. It's not like TSMM is a walk on at DCA, it is typically a 30-45 min wait during the day. If you added FP to DCA's TSMM, then waits for standby would probably be 45-60 min during the day.

Being stationed in San Diego, we go to DL/DCA about 4-5 times a year, so I can speak for TSMM wait times. Even with Carsland absorbing much of the wait times when the gates open (you should see the people RUNNING to Carsland and RSR line and to the FP queue; particularly funny is to watch the parents who clearly don't get any exercise trying to quickly waddle themselves behind their kids in front of them) TSMM gets the second highest turnout when the park opens. If you don't get there early, your AVERAGE wait time is still 30-40 minutes, usually 45. All the while, you can literally walk over to California Screamin' and wait 2-5 minutes to get on.

When we visit WDW/DHS/EC/AK, we avoid TSMM and Soarin' at all costs, just because we know the 60 minute wait for each of them isn't worth our time. We did however hit up Little Mermaid in FL to see the comparison between WDW and DCA (one of the FEW queues in WDW that are better than DL).

 

[SirLink]

Why are people quoting TEA numbers when they are nothing but guesses as they used that whole first click rule for park hoping which further muddles the figures up

 

[Next Big Thing]

Why are people quoting TEA numbers when they are nothing but guesses as they used that whole first click rule for park hoping which further muddles the figures up

Because TEA numbers are the only thing people have to go by?

 

[danlb_2000]

Why are people quoting TEA numbers when they are nothing but guesses as they used that whole first click rule for park hoping which further muddles the figures up

If you can provide the actual numbers I am sure people would be happy to use them.

 

[George]

If you can provide the actual numbers I am sure people would be happy to use them.

Magic Kingdom - Too many
Universal's Super fun happy park of joy - 5 billion
EPCOT - 22 billion earned per day during Food and Wine (runs from 06/12 - 05/08, might extend it even more next year!)
Sea World - the 874 people not disappointed by by Antarctica: Empire of the Penguin
Holiday World - Everyone not banned for videotaping on the Raven
DCA - Still no one since everyone is trying to keep Cars Land a secret
BGT - Locals and those who haven't visited BGW
DHS - 11,876,385 confused first time visitors to WDW every year
DAK - Too hard to differentiate between the guests and the denizens
USF - Millions and millions of themed beverage fans from around the globe

 

[George]

I love you to death, but I had to put some spaces between the numbers or I'm not sleeping tonight.

Right number for DHS, but not TDS.

RankAmusement parkLocation2008[1]2009[2]2010[3]2011[4]2012[5]2013[6]
1Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 17,063,000 17,233,000 16,972,000 17,142,000 17,536,000 18,588,000
2Tokyo Disneyland at Tokyo Disney ResortTokyo, Japan 14,293,000 13,646,000 14,452,000 13,996,000 14,847,000 17,214,000
3Disneyland at Disneyland ResortAnaheim, California, USA 14,721,000 15,900,000 15,980,000 16,140,000 15,963,000 16,202,000
4Tokyo DisneySea at Tokyo Disney ResortTokyo, Japan 12,498,000 12,004,000 12,663,000 11,930,000 12,656,000 14,084,000
5Epcot at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 10,935,000 10,990,000 10,825,000 10,825,000 11,063,000 11,229,000
6Disneyland Park at Disneyland ParisMarne-la-Vallée, France 12,688,000 12,740,000 10,500,000 10,990,000 11,200,000 10,430,000
7Disney's Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 9,540,000 9,590,000 9,686,000 9,783,000 9,998,000 10,198,000
8Disney's Hollywood Studios at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 9,608,000 9,700,000 9,603,000 9,699,000 9,912,000 10,110,000
9Universal Studios JapanOsaka, Japan 8,300,000 8,000,000 8,160,000 8,500,000 9,700,000 10,100,000
10Disney California Adventure at Disneyland ResortAnaheim, California, USA 5,566,000 6,095,000 6,287,000 6,341,000 7,775,000 8,514,000

Right number for DHS, but not TDS.

RankAmusement parkLocation2008[1]2009[2]2010[3]2011[4]2012[5]2013[6]
1Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 17,063,000 17,233,000 16,972,000 17,142,000 17,536,000 18,588,000

2Tokyo Disneyland at Tokyo Disney ResortTokyo, Japan 14,293,000 13,646,000 14,452,000 13,996,000 14,847,000 17,214,000

3Disneyland at Disneyland ResortAnaheim, California, USA 14,721,000 15,900,000 15,980,000 16,140,000 15,963,000 16,202,000

4Tokyo DisneySea at Tokyo Disney ResortTokyo, Japan 12,498,000 12,004,000 12,663,000 11,930,000 12,656,000 14,084,000

5Epcot at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 10,935,000 10,990,000 10,825,000 10,825,000 11,063,000 11,229,000

6Disneyland Park at Disneyland ParisMarne-la-Vallée, France 12,688,000 12,740,000 10,500,000 10,990,000 11,200,000 10,430,000

7Disney's Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 9,540,000 9,590,000 9,686,000 9,783,000 9,998,000 10,198,000

8Disney's Hollywood Studios at Walt Disney World ResortLake Buena Vista, Florida, USA 9,608,000 9,700,000 9,603,000 9,699,000 9,912,000 10,110,000

9Universal Studios JapanOsaka, Japan 8,300,000 8,000,000 8,160,000 8,500,000 9,700,000 10,100,000

10Disney California Adventure at Disneyland ResortAnaheim, California, USA 5,566,000 6,095,000 6,287,000 6,341,000 7,775,000 8,514,000

 

[spacemt354]

TSMM at DCA still gets decent waits despite not having FP. I think it is definitely proof that the ride itself is popular for being a well received ride, not just for a lack of things to do. It's not like TSMM is a walk on at DCA, it is typically a 30-45 min wait during the day. If you added FP to DCA's TSMM, then waits for standby would probably be 45-60 min during the day.

But even a 45-60 minute wait is half of what a wait at DHS would be for TSMM.

Just because a ride has a wait time, isnt proof that it's popular. A lot of factors, including hourly ride capacity and location, have to be considered.

TSMM is definitely not a walk-on, and it definitely has its charm, but the reason why it produces such long lines in DHS is because it's the only kid oriented ride in the entire park.

 

[spacemt354]

No, you get a lot of people saying stuff like this:



...with the implication being that demand would fall off significantly if only there were alternative "good" rides at DHS. I think that's a bunch of bunk. TSMM is a very popular ride because of the nature of the ride. Many many guests really like it and would want to ride it even if a ton of alternative rides were present. TDS certainly indicates this where it's typically among the longest waits despite a myriad of great rides there.

The reality is that TSMM has poor capacity and is popular with guests. Even significantly changing the dynamics of the park -- with more family friendly rides -- isn't going to change that. Adding a third track makes sense. Everyone agrees that building more rides is a more important need, but that doesn't mean that adding more capacity to TSMM is a bad idea.

The wait-time being reduced from 90-120 mins to 30-50 mins is a pretty significant decrease.

If more family friendly well designed attractions are added to DHS, you'll see wait-times similar to DCA.

It's not going to be a walk-on, but a 30 min wait is much more along what the attraction deserves. That's why people claim it's overrated. Not because they don't enjoy it or think it should be a walk-on, but because the lines are double what they should be (ex: DCA) due to TSMM being the lone option.

 

[doctornick]

The wait-time being reduced from 90-120 mins to 30-50 mins is a pretty significant decrease.

It would be, but aren't we talking about DHS? You aren't going to get the wait time down to 30-50 min unless you get rid of FP for the ride and build like 8-10 other family friendly rides.

Or build a third track.

If more family friendly well designed attractions are added to DHS, you'll see wait-times similar to DCA.

Are you planning to get rid of FP at DHS's TSMM as well? Because that's a glaring difference between the DHS and DCA, even ignoring alternative ride options and park attendance.

And define "more" family friendly well designed attractions. 2-3 such rides? Ain't going scratch the surface for TSMM's wait times.

It's not going to be a walk-on, but a 30 min wait is much more along what the attraction deserves

And there's that opinion again. I hate to break it to you, but the ride is popular. People are willing to wait far longer than 30min because they enjoy the ride. I think the discussion isn't going to move forward unless people understand that most guests ride the ride because they really like it not because they are shrugging their shoulders because there's nothing else to do in DHS.

Heck, look at Buzz in MK -- despite being an omnimover with great capacity and being in a park with tons of stuff to do, it gets 45 minute waits for standby on average days.

I understand that nobody is going to convince anyone else of anything, but I just wish people would understand that just because they personally might not care for TSMM, it is a ride that is very popular for its own sake.

 

[doctornick]

Eh, not so fast. You've got RSR, Maters Tractor thing, Luigi's flying tigers, Little Mermaid, Goofy's sky school (former muhulland madness), all the kiddy rides in Bugs Land, Jumpin Jellyfish, Turtle Talk w/crush (albeit sitting in front of screen), and Monsters Inc.

He's saying that the wait times in DHS are long because of a lack of kid oriented rides, not DCA. That said, despite all those alternative rides in DCA, TSMM is pretty much the second or third longest wait in the park most days despite not having FP there.

I'd also argue that TSMM isn't really a kiddie ride at all and you frequently see groups of only adults riding. It's the kind of ride that appeals to all ages, so it tends to pull from a wide pool of guests, which helps explain part of its popularity (in all Disney parks).

 

[rle4lunch]

He's saying that the wait times in DHS are long because of a lack of kid oriented rides, not DCA. That said, despite all those alternative rides in DCA, TSMM is pretty much the second or third longest wait in the park most days despite not having FP there.

I'd also argue that TSMM isn't really a kiddie ride at all and you frequently see groups of only adults riding. It's the kind of ride that appeals to all ages, so it tends to pull from a wide pool of guests, which helps explain part of its popularity (in all Disney parks).

I read that wrong, I thought he was talking about DCA, not DHS, hence my deletion of the post. You must've replied while I was deleting!

 

[Cesar R M]

Magic Kingdom - Too many
Universal's Super fun happy park of joy - 5 billion
EPCOT - 22 billion earned per day during Food and Wine (runs from 06/12 - 05/08, might extend it even more next year!)
Sea World - the 874 people not disappointed by by Antarctica: Empire of the Penguin
Holiday World - Everyone not banned for videotaping on the Raven
DCA - Still no one since everyone is trying to keep Cars Land a secret
BGT - Locals and those who haven't visited BGW
DHS - 11,876,385 confused first time visitors to WDW every year
DAK - Too hard to differentiate between the guests and the denizens
USF - Millions and millions of themed beverage fans from around the globe

 

[FigmentForver96]

Soooo about the soundstage........

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

"Well... yeah, I said it, so I guess it is my opinion -- that TSMM is the most overrated glorified, video game-based, carnival attraction EVER on the face of the earth. Yes, it has crazy long lines. If that's proof of anything it would, imo, go to show how terrible the offerings are at DHS.

It's an okay ride, it's not special...

yes, that's my opinion."

And I agree 100%!

 

[mahnamahna101]

Agreed. Would be great to see all this and much more. I am only responding to those who claimed WDW was facing doom due to lack of investment, increased competition and mismanagement. Obviously that meme is now utterly discredited. I have been happy to do my part.

Agreed. Seems the Board is forcing TDO to take action.

I'll take a DHS makeover, a Dinoland USA makeover and a Tomorrowland makeover by 2021 over a 5th gate. WDW doesn't look doomed now. Especially if we get Star Wars and Pixar plus extra.

$600 million for Pixar (considering all of the bulldozing that has to be done)
$500 million for Star Wars (should cost as much as NFL did if we're only getting a spinner, Mos Eisley and the new E-ticket... $250-300 million E ticket though)
$400 million for ? -- whatever the Board wants fixed in DHS.

1. Removal of BAH?
2. GMR replaced with a trackless dark ride?
3. Expansion to Sunset Blvd? Maybe a family dark ride out there?
4. Enhancements to ToT and RnRC?
5. Enhancements to Fantasmic?
6. B&TB and Mermaid replacements?
7. Disney Jr updates?
8. Muppets mini-land?

Any of those could potentially happen. Personally, I think 7 of those could be done with $400 million. Sunset getting a family dark ride isn't likely since Fantasmic is too popular to be removed. GMR replacement is cheaper and would still freshen up the park. I'd love a Toontown mini-land or Crimestoppers dark ride using trackless tech, though.

$1.2 billion-$1.5 billion could definitely solve 80-90% of DHS' problems if TDO is smart about the spending.