DHS DHS Soundstage 1 Renovation - Toy Storia Mania expansion

[Slowjack]

Simple.

1.) This is an interactive/competitive ride
2.) This is a ride the whole family can enjoy (unlike almost the entire rest of DHS outside of GMR)
3.) WDW Draws much higher crowds than DLR does.

Combine all of that together and it should be easy to know that you're gonna need a bigger boat.

Again, it looks easy in hindsight. It's true that there aren't a lot of rides for young children in DHS besides TSMM. But that could also lead to DHS not drawing as many families with young children, which would hurt attendance on the ride, not help. Of course, building the ride could alter the mix of guests at the park -- which is why these patterns are so hard to predict. And building a ride the whole family can enjoy doesn't tell you how many families will actually enjoy it.

And DHS currently gets only about 15% more guests than DCA, although admittedly the gap was larger back when the rides were built. But consider: Tokyo DisneySea has a TSMM, too. Do they need a third track? Apparently not, even though their crowds crush those at DHS or DCA.

Keep in mind, too, that WDI can't even be completely sure what a ride's capacity is until it's built. They can make educated guesses, but changes in ride control systems, dispatch timing, and operational issues can make a big difference.

Or remember the boats that used to be circling the Animal Kingdom. There was a lame ride, which should have meant the demand would be low to match the low capacity. But that's not what happened. People queued up like there was a free turkey leg at the end of the line.

Or who would have thought that people would wait, literally for hours, for a simple meet and greet? I know I wouldn't have. But apparently there's something about those Frozen girls that transcends all reason.

So I'm going to cut Disney some slack on this. Capacity planning is hard, not simple. (And for capacity planning on a WDW trip, here's my biggest gripe: why are there so few bathrooms at the Orlando airport?)

 

[Next Big Thing]

And DHS currently gets only about 15% more guests than DCA, although admittedly the gap was larger back when the rides were built. But consider: Tokyo DisneySea has a TSMM, too. Do they need a third track? Apparently not, even though their crowds crush those at DHS or DCA.

As you said, back when the ride was originally built, DCA was at a low point. DHS was drawing probably close to 4M more guests per year, if not more.

And as to Tokyo DisneySea... That's an unfair comparison. Tokyo DisneySea is not only THE standard for a Disney park today, but it has a MUCH higher total park capacity than DHS does. TDS is a beautiful, complete park. DHS is an ugly mess and if you're only coming for the rides, you could knock it out in a couple hours. But currently, the demand for family rides/rides without a height requirement is huge at DHS right now. GMR and TSMM are rides the whole family can ride. Out of the whole park, that's it. Sure they can see the shows, but people want rides too.

The demand is easily there for a third track in this park.

 

[BrianLo]

But consider: Tokyo DisneySea has a TSMM, too. Do they need a third track? Apparently not, even though their crowds crush those at DHS or DCA.

This is incorrect. It absolutely should have been built with a 3rd (probably 4th) track in Tokyo... it consistently pulls massive waits that puts even DHS to shame. I actually find this the worst faux pas of them all, they knew how poorly the attraction was handling crowds in DHS before building it in TDS.

At least Disney seems to have learned their lesson and are building a 4-theater Soarin' in Shanghai

 

[BrerJon]

And DHS currently gets only about 15% more guests than DCA, although admittedly the gap was larger back when the rides were built. But consider: Tokyo DisneySea has a TSMM, too. Do they need a third track? Apparently not, even though their crowds crush those at DHS or DCA.

As someone who has braved the mad rush of thousands of people to the TSM Fastpass machines in Tokyo, I can wholeheartedly say that the wait times at DisneySea for it are far longer than the DFR version ever gets, but you know what the response of the Japanese is to overcrowded rides?

Not building extra tracks, but building new rides (like the rumoured Frozen land), refurbishing old ones to perfection, and adding live entertainment, parades, and extra imagineering details (like the interactive wands that activate easter eggs around the park - tech which Universal subsequently adopted for Diagon Alley) to increase the things to do for guests unwilling to wait in long lines.

Do the lines get any shorter? Not really. Does attendance and guest satisfaction climb? Hell yes, it's one of the highest attended, highest reviewed and - this one's for you, TDO - most profitable parks in the world.

So here's a lesson TDO, don't cheap out on your guests, and your guests won't cheap out on you.

 

[Mike S]

So here's a lesson TDO, don't cheap out on your guests, and your guests won't cheap out on you.

This should be on a motivational poster in the office of everyone who makes the decisions for the parks.

 

[david10225]

As someone who has braved the mad rush of thousands of people to the TSM Fastpass machines in Tokyo, I can wholeheartedly say that the wait times at DisneySea for it are far longer than the DFR version ever gets, but you know what the response of the Japanese is to overcrowded rides?

I took this picture last week. This is the line of people 30 minutes after park opening at Disney Seas waiting to get a Fast Pass for Toy Story Mania....I say it is insanely popular

 

[doctornick]

As someone who has braved the mad rush of thousands of people to the TSM Fastpass machines in Tokyo, I can wholeheartedly say that the wait times at DisneySea for it are far longer than the DFR version ever gets, but you know what the response of the Japanese is to overcrowded rides?

Not building extra tracks, but building new rides (like the rumoured Frozen land), refurbishing old ones to perfection, and adding live entertainment, parades, and extra imagineering details (like the interactive wands that activate easter eggs around the park - tech which Universal subsequently adopted for Diagon Alley) to increase the things to do for guests unwilling to wait in long lines.

Do the lines get any shorter? Not really. Does attendance and guest satisfaction climb? Hell yes, it's one of the highest attended, highest reviewed and - this one's for you, TDO - most profitable parks in the world.

So here's a lesson TDO, don't cheap out on your guests, and your guests won't cheap out on you.

Two things....

1. I think the popularity of TSMM in Tokyo reflects that the ride itself is intrinsically popular and doesn't just draw crowds due to "being the only kid friendly ride" in DHS. There's a number of people who I've seen dismiss TSMM as not being any good but popular only because "there's nothing else to do" but I am firmly in the camp that says if you build 10 kid friendly rides tomorrow in DHS, that TSMM would still get a lot of attention and crowds -- people like it for what it is.

2. I think we can all agree that building more rides and other entertainment options for DHS would be good and something that TDO should. Yes, doing so, would take some burden/attention away from TSMM. But that doesn't mean that building a third track for TSMM is not a good idea. It's certainly reasonable to increase the capacity of a popular ride while also building new attractions -- hopefully, this is what will go on at DHS in the near future.

 

[misterID]

And DHS currently gets only about 15% more guests than DCA, although admittedly the gap was larger back when the rides were built.

I just don't buy those figures for DHS. There's just no way they're getting more guests than DCA. I think there's some trickery going on there with the numbers. And if it weren't for the Park Hopper this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Two things....

1. I think the popularity of TSMM in Tokyo reflects that the ride itself is intrinsically popular and doesn't just draw crowds due to "being the only kid friendly ride" in DHS. There's a number of people who I've seen dismiss TSMM as not being any good but popular only because "there's nothing else to do" but I am firmly in the camp that says if you build 10 kid friendly rides tomorrow in DHS, that TSMM would still get a lot of attention and crowds -- people like it for what it is.

2. I think we can all agree that building more rides and other entertainment options for DHS would be good and something that TDO should. Yes, doing so, would take some burden/attention away from TSMM. But that doesn't mean that building a third track for TSMM is not a good idea. It's certainly reasonable to increase the capacity of a popular ride while also building new attractions -- hopefully, this is what will go on at DHS in the near future.

Tokyo is just an overcrowded resort. By all estimates, the crowds are insane, all 12 months of the year, where it's not unusual for every ride to have over an hour wait. So TDL really isn't a good comparison at all. And the cultural taste is a lot different over there, too.

Eh, the third track is okay, but it's not okay using valuable real estate for it. I don't know, seems like an odd way to solve this problem. I would bet opening another ride in the area that was open for the entire family would cut the waits and congestion down significantly.

And TSMM is THE most overrated attraction at WDW. EVER.

 

[DisDan]

I just don't buy those figures for DHS. There's just no way they're getting more guests than DCA. I think there's some trickery going on there with the numbers. And if it weren't for the Park Hopper this wouldn't even be a discussion.


Tokyo is just an overcrowded resort. By all estimates, the crowds are insane, all 12 months of the year, where it's not unusual for every ride to have over an hour wait. So TDL really isn't a good comparison at all. And the cultural taste is a lot different over there, too.

Eh, the third track is okay, but it's not okay using valuable real estate for it. I don't know, seems like an odd way to solve this problem. I would bet opening another ride in the area that was open for the entire family would cut the waits and congestion down significantly.

And TSMM is THE most overrated attraction at WDW. EVER.

Let's be clear, that is your OPINION. All evidence to the contrary.

 

[Slowjack]

I took this picture last week. This is the line of people 30 minutes after park opening at Disney Seas waiting to get a Fast Pass for Toy Story Mania....I say it is insanely popular

Wow. I had no idea! Although aren't there insane lines for some food carts at DisneySea, too?

 

[Next Big Thing]

Two things....

1. I think the popularity of TSMM in Tokyo reflects that the ride itself is intrinsically popular and doesn't just draw crowds due to "being the only kid friendly ride" in DHS. There's a number of people who I've seen dismiss TSMM as not being any good but popular only because "there's nothing else to do" but I am firmly in the camp that says if you build 10 kid friendly rides tomorrow in DHS, that TSMM would still get a lot of attention and crowds -- people like it for what it is.

2. I think we can all agree that building more rides and other entertainment options for DHS would be good and something that TDO should. Yes, doing so, would take some burden/attention away from TSMM. But that doesn't mean that building a third track for TSMM is not a good idea. It's certainly reasonable to increase the capacity of a popular ride while also building new attractions -- hopefully, this is what will go on at DHS in the near future.

Yes, obviously it is a very popular ride and has a lot of re-ridability because of the competitive nature. However, in a park like DHS, the demand is bound to exceed supply when, as you said, it's one of the only kid-friendly rides.

I don't think anyone is saying the ride isn't popular, it's just DHS is a special case because of how crappy the park is.

 

[Goofyernmost]

So here's a lesson TDO, don't cheap out on your guests, and your guests won't cheap out on you.

This should be on a motivational poster in the office of everyone who makes the decisions for the parks.

The problem being that it is a crock. There is nothing you can do that will make everyone happy. If you build something out of silver, guests (customers in reality) will think it should have been done in gold. Contrary to popular opinion Disney isn't run by total idiots, they've known that for a long time.

 

[doctornick]

Yes, obviously it is a very popular ride and has a lot of re-ridability because of the competitive nature. However, in a park like DHS, the demand is bound to exceed supply when, as you said, it's one of the only kid-friendly rides.

I don't think anyone is saying the ride isn't popular, it's just DHS is a special case because of how crappy the park is.

No, you get a lot of people saying stuff like this:

And TSMM is THE most overrated attraction at WDW. EVER.

...with the implication being that demand would fall off significantly if only there were alternative "good" rides at DHS. I think that's a bunch of bunk. TSMM is a very popular ride because of the nature of the ride. Many many guests really like it and would want to ride it even if a ton of alternative rides were present. TDS certainly indicates this where it's typically among the longest waits despite a myriad of great rides there.

The reality is that TSMM has poor capacity and is popular with guests. Even significantly changing the dynamics of the park -- with more family friendly rides -- isn't going to change that. Adding a third track makes sense. Everyone agrees that building more rides is a more important need, but that doesn't mean that adding more capacity to TSMM is a bad idea.

 

[misterID]

Let's be clear, that is your OPINION. All evidence to the contrary.

Well... yeah, I said it, so I guess it is my opinion -- that TSMM is the most overrated glorified, video game-based, carnival attraction EVER on the face of the earth. Yes, it has crazy long lines. If that's proof of anything it would, imo, go to show how terrible the offerings are at DHS.

It's an okay ride, it's not special...

yes, that's my opinion.

No, you get a lot of people saying stuff like this:



...with the implication being that demand would fall off significantly if only there were alternative "good" rides at DHS. I think that's a bunch of bunk. TSMM is a very popular ride because of the nature of the ride. Many many guests really like it and would want to ride it even if a ton of alternative rides were present. TDS certainly indicates this where it's typically among the longest waits despite a myriad of great rides there.

The reality is that TSMM has poor capacity and is popular with guests. Even significantly changing the dynamics of the park -- with more family friendly rides -- isn't going to change that. Adding a third track makes sense. Everything agrees that building more rides is a more important need, but that doesn't mean that adding more capacity to TSMM is a bad idea.

Bunk not withstanding, there are a few things to consider (taste not being one of them); TS is a popular IP. The ride is an interactive, video game-based attraction that is appealing to a good variety of people, good marks there. But it cannot be stressed that it is the only game in town in DHS in regards to Dark Rides that appeals to kids. If Carsland and a Monsters INC ride opens nearby, I guess we'll see who's right. It's either an awesome attraction I'm not giving enough credit to, or indeed its an overrated attraction that's popularity is based on the fact the park is too light on family attractions.

Again, The Disney SEA version is not a good comparison because the make up of the crowds at our two parks is VERY different. DCA is a much better comparison... which you sneakily didn't mention.

 

[Next Big Thing]

No, you get a lot of people saying stuff like this:

Well, everyone has an opinion, and I do think TSMM is a little overrated, but i'm not going to deny that it is clearly popular around the globe.

 

[doctornick]

Again, The Disney SEA version is not a good comparison because the make up of the crowds at our two parks is VERY different. DCA is a much better comparison... which you sneakily didn't mention.

TSMM at DCA still gets decent waits despite not having FP. I think it is definitely proof that the ride itself is popular for being a well received ride, not just for a lack of things to do. It's not like TSMM is a walk on at DCA, it is typically a 30-45 min wait during the day. If you added FP to DCA's TSMM, then waits for standby would probably be 45-60 min during the day.

 

[BrerJon]

Wow. I had no idea! Although aren't there insane lines for some food carts at DisneySea, too?

Not insane as such, no-one's waiting 30 minutes, but they do have longer lines for a popcorn cart than you'd ever see in MK (mainly because it's themed flavoured popcorn). Epcot Food and Wine kiosk lines can get far longer than any I've seen for DisneySea food carts though, so it's not an exclusively Japanese thing.

 

[BrerJon]

...with the implication being that demand would fall off significantly if only there were alternative "good" rides at DHS. I think that's a bunch of bunk. TSMM is a very popular ride because of the nature of the ride. Many many guests really like it and would want to ride it even if a ton of alternative rides were present. TDS certainly indicates this where it's typically among the longest waits despite a myriad of great rides there.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but part of the appeal in Tokyo is also that it's the newest major ride, the main thing many guests will have never done before, whereas almost everything else is getting on for being a decade old, so that contributes a little to the hype and excitement for it.

 

[doctornick]

Well, everyone has an opinion, and I do think TSMM is a little overrated, but i'm not going to deny that it is clearly popular around the globe.

That's my point. I can agree that it's overrated (though I do enjoy it), but I cannot agree that it's not popular with a huge number of Disney guests. Adding a bunch of other rides at DHS isn't going to make TSMM not popular -- it may change people's wait tolerance a bit, but many/most people going into the park will want to ride it at least once and many will want to ride multiple time if possible.

You'd have to add a whole bunch (like 5-10) good family friendly rides before a significant dent is made in TSMM's wait times at DHS as currently constructed. Adding 2 or 3 family rides just means that guests will go on those rides in addition to wanting to ride TSMM.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much though is that if they ever extended the hours of DHS, that this would help increase supply from the ride and alleviate some of the waits. That's another tack that can be considered besides an additional track.

 

[stevehousse]

I just don't buy those figures for DHS. There's just no way they're getting more guests than DCA. I think there's some trickery going on there with the numbers. And if it weren't for the Park Hopper this wouldn't even be a discussion.


Tokyo is just an overcrowded resort. By all estimates, the crowds are insane, all 12 months of the year, where it's not unusual for every ride to have over an hour wait. So TDL really isn't a good comparison at all. And the cultural taste is a lot different over there, too.

Eh, the third track is okay, but it's not okay using valuable real estate for it. I don't know, seems like an odd way to solve this problem. I would bet opening another ride in the area that was open for the entire family would cut the waits and congestion down significantly.

And TSMM is THE most overrated attraction at WDW. EVER.

On the surface, yes a third track for the ride does sound dumb, but they are doing this because it's an easy way to keep things open and expand capacity when the park will be in complete construction for its major rehab. That's the reason they are adding it. They need another attraction that can handle capacity and adding to the only family ride is the right way to go even if it sounds silly. I can't wait to hear what exactly all is gonna happen for DHS!