DHS Makeover - What we know so far.....

[marni1971]

No, that's not an explanation as to why a budget might be double what it was estimated to be.

Because WDI became unaccountable and could not bring anything in at a reasonable budget - reasonable for TWDC of old and reasonable for other companies who work to similar standards on similar projects (not aiming at any in particular) ?

10% overruns are common. 20% not unknown. But 60-75% plus? Who's to blame? How far should it go? WDI? The BoD? Iger? It's not like this would have come as a sudden shock.

 

[Master Yoda]

Because WDI became unaccountable and could not bring anything in at a reasonable budget - reasonable for TWDC of old and reasonable for other companies who work to similar standards on similar projects (not aiming at any in particular) ?

10% overruns are common. 20% not unknown. But 60-75% plus? Who's to blame? How far should it go? WDI? The BoD? Iger? It's not like this would have come as a sudden shock.

I think what we are looking for...well at least what I am looking for is the why.

We know that WDI has always gotten the least bang for the buck in the theme park ride category since they came into existence.

Pandora seems to be the latest and most extreme example in that trend, so why did it happen?

Did Imagineer A hire his buddy that owns a construction company and pay him twice what the job should cost?

Did all of the "meetings" at the local strip club get out of hand this time?

Did they blow a crap ton on R&D for a project that got ditched?

Did they insist on using a more expensive product or process over a more economical one that would have netted the same results?

etc, etc.

 

[bakntime]

Because WDI became unaccountable and could not bring anything in at a reasonable budget - reasonable for TWDC of old and reasonable for other companies who work to similar standards on similar projects (not aiming at any in particular) ?

See, I don't necessarily discredit that notion. I do think that there has to be at least some degree of mismanagement somewhere in this chain. But how much mismanagement of the funds is something that doesn't seem as obvious to me as you're trying to make it seem. When you say that Pandora should have only cost $550M, you can't use Diagon Alley as the measuring stick. It's a Mummy-coaster with 3D glasses (which is basically an off-the-shelf coaster akin to Rock-n-Roller with a few projections added in), plus a short train ride with TV sets, and some buildings. What could those two attractions cost, combined? $100M? Add in a couple streets, some buildings (albeit "nice" ones, but still, construction wise, they're mostly just building facades). $250M makes sense to me there. It's a fairly impressive $250, but it does seem like that's what it would cost, when I look at other roller coasters and 3-or-4-story building facades. There's no landscaping whatsoever ... no grass, no trees, no hills, no mountains, no waterfalls ...

I'm not suggesting that Pandora will be "better" than anything at Universal, but construction-wise (architecture, scale), Pandora blows Diagon Alley out of the water. Diagon Alley is what, 40 feet tall? And it's mostly just building facades and a re-skinned Mummy coaster. The rock wall that covers the Flight of Passage show building alone is a shockingly large construction that's more than twice the height of Diagon Alley, if I remember the numbers right. I think the final price for Cars Land alone was close to $1B, in large part because rockwork and fake mountains wre expensive as heck. There's a reason Universal built as little of that Hogwarts mountain as they could, leaving some of the building (which is smaller than Flight of Passage) exposed. And there's no waterfalls, or water features of any kind, for that matter. I don't think any of us here has the first-hand construction knowledge to say that a project like Pandora shouldn't cost $1B in this day and age, and by the time those who might really know that have spun the information, we can't possibly be certain where the truth lies.

I personally find it hard to comprehend money of amounts greater than a few hundred thousand. Why does a sports stadium (pretty much just steel, concrete, and typical industrial HVAC, lighting, and utilities) cost $1.3B? Should it? I don't know, but somehow both Yankee Stadium and Cowboy Stadium apparently did.

 

[DVCOwner]

And so it should be for what it's cost.

For the amount it is over budget it should have 5 E Tickets all made of solid gold.

How much over budget? It is like you really do not know, but keep repeating this till everyone believes it.

 

[marni1971]

How much over budget? It is like you really do not know, but keep repeating this till everyone believes it.

I'm not naming the figure. I was asked not to. I'll let someone else take that one.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Oh boy do I wish @whylightbulb was here.

Here's a great post he wrote years ago about WDI's spending habits in comparison to UNI Creative.

The answer to this question is complicated. Basically, Universal spends about 20 to 25 percent of an attraction's development budget on soft costs (design, admin, management etc.). Disney can go up to 30 to 40 percent in some cases. The reasons, in part, for Disney's higher soft costs are R&D as well as layers of wasted management labor costs. Universal will rely heavily on "free" work from its vendors to bid on a much less developed concept design package. The vendors will have to develop these bid packages to the point that Disney would have released its bid packages (whether these bid packages are going in-house or out to a sub makes no difference). For the Universal vendors to get these design documents up to the point of putting in a decent bid they will need to dedicate some resources to flesh out the basic concepts communicated from Creative Studios in minimal drawings and beat lists etc. So what ends up happening is UC gets a lot of free design work because these vendors want the job and will develop the basic concepts to a level that they can estimate budget and schedule requirements. Disney will have already gotten that far before submitting its bid packages.

As far as red tape and bureaucracy Disney wins big time on that one. Universal has its fair share but WDI's bloated management structure and recent history of hiring lower grade talent, just because they may hold more college degrees for example (I am positive that, were he alive today, if Walt Disney himself were to apply at WDI he would be turned down), makes Disney extremely inefficient.

The fact that WDI allocates a much higher percentage of project resources to R&D also adds to their higher costs.

There are more reasons but that will give you a start in understanding the differences.

 

[marni1971]

See, I don't necessarily discredit that notion. I do think that there has to be at least some degree of mismanagement somewhere in this chain. But how much mismanagement of the funds is something that doesn't seem as obvious to me as you're trying to make it seem. When you say that Pandora should have only cost $550M, you can't use Diagon Alley as the measuring stick. .

Use any measuring stick. Use DAK in 1998 if you like.

Or if your floating mountains really are 10 million each, why weren't they given a budget of 10 million each? Or if they're actually 15 million each, how was it gotten so wrong in the first place?

 

[DVCOwner]

I'm not naming the figure. I was asked not to. I'll let someone else take that one.

You have got to be kidding me. You think people should listen to all you have to say but you can not say where you know this from, how much the budget was or how much it has gone over, but just you Disney is doing this all wrong. You need to back up what you say with facts or move on.

 

[marni1971]

You have got to be kidding me. You think people should listen to all you have to say but you can not say where you know this from, how much the budget was or how much it has gone over, but just you Disney is doing this all wrong. You need to back up what you say with facts or move on.

I don't need to do anything. I don't "think people should do" anything. It's your choice to believe me or not.

Get off your high horse. And don't be so rude.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

I'm not naming the figure. I was asked not to. I'll let someone else take that one.

How far in the process is WDI regarding SWL? Plans are completed? Final decision on where the land will be in DHS? Any shot that the land will be upgraded?

 

[marni1971]

How far in the process is WDI regarding SWL? Plans are completed? Final decision on where the land will be in DHS? Any shot that the land will be upgraded?

Pretty much finalised. Main buildings and rides should be nailed more or less. Little shot it will be upgraded to begin with.

 

[Master Yoda]

I don't need to do anything. I don't "think" anything. It's your choice to believe me or not.

Get off your high horse. And don't be so rude.

Well you "do" need to give me as much advance notice as possible of the next birthday dinner so the wife can get the day off.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

I don't need to do anything. I don't "think" anything. It's your choice to believe me or not.

Get off your high horse. And don't be so rude.

Most people on here understand that once you leak information that isn't supposed to be public, those people in the know won't share what information. Once trust is broken, it's hard to get that back.

 

[marni1971]

Well you "do" need to give me as much advance notice as possible of the next birthday dinner so the wife can get the day off.

I should PM you

 

[Master Yoda]

I should PM you

That would probably be best.

 

[bakntime]

Use any measuring stick. Use DAK in 1998 if you like.

The economy in 1998 was so ridiculously different than it is now (not to mention that inflation is up 45% since then, making the construction cost approx $1.45B in 2015 $), that there's no fair comparison. As a country, we were riding an economic high that hasn't been matched since. And there was no Expedition Everest at AK, and the only traditional e-ticket "attraction" was Dinosaur, a re-skinned cloned of DL's Indy. The tree was the most expensive thing in the place. Outside of that, it was a very, very well-done zoo. Nothing tall, nothing huge, nothing that was out-of-the-ordinary in terms of innovation architecturally, aside from an oil rig of a tree. It was mostly a logistical and design challenge rather than a construction challenge. The safari took amazing amounts of planning and design, but construction cost couldn't have been too exorbitant when the tallest structures things there were trees.

I'd rather use Cars Land as a comparison. At least it's more contemporary, more equivalent in terms of scale. It cost $1B -- I think.

How about the stadiums I mentioned? $1.3B each.

Tall, large construction projects with tons of custom set pieces, waterfalls, rockwork, etc, are flipping expensive.

 

[DVCOwner]

I don't need to do anything. I don't "think" anything. It's your choice to believe me or not.

Get off your high horse. And don't be so rude.

I am not being rude. If I posted that Walt Disney was closing down on of its four parks tomorrow would you not want to know the facts that I am using to make that claim.

 

[phi2134]

I am not being rude. If I posted that Walt Disney was closing down on of its four parks tomorrow would you not want to know the facts that I am using to make that claim.

This is an open news/rumor forum for a reason, there are insiders and then there are people who make things up. You can't ask for people to reveal their sources, that would cost them a great deal and they might possibly be discovered. You are being extremely rude. Take this site as well as the internet with a grain of salt and believe who you want. If you don't have insider information to share, feel lucky that someone else is sharing.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Pretty much finalised. Main buildings and rides should be nailed more or less. Little shot it will be upgraded to begin with.

Ok, thanks. Can't wait for the SWL - childhood dream to walk in an area like that. Shocked about Avatar but it looks like it will be amazing. Bruce Vaughn never came across very well when I saw him on the TC talking about Disney.

 

[marni1971]

I am not being rude. If I posted that Walt Disney was closing down on of its four parks tomorrow would you not want to know the facts that I am using to make that claim.

And if I'm asked to not repeat certain things I don't. Sometimes I wish I could. Sometimes I'm glad I can't. You have to understand that. I'm not asking for belief. That's everyone's personal choice. If you think me full of bull then that's life. I can't help that. I just say what I believe to be true when I can without trying to take sides. Right now for example I know of three potential sites for DHS SWL. I'm not calling it because I don't have concrete proof for any. If and when I do and if and when I can I'll say it. And it's up to individuals to believe me or not. A leap of faith to believe some unknown fan boi perhaps. But that's the most I can offer. I'll offer it. It's no skin off my nose if you don't believe it. But don't have a go at me for it.