Death at Driving Experience

[CarlFredricksen]

"And don't hold your breath on your med school example. At large teaching hospitals, residents -- who are students -- often times run an OR while the surgeon bounces between a couple rooms, checking in."

Technically, residents are physicians - they have medical degrees-, they are just in specialty training. I work as an education coordinator for a department in the UF College of Medicine. I don't work in a surgical specialty so I can't speak on how their services are run, but our inpatient wards are run by a team of two residents with an attending faculty member overseeing the team. We also have medical students (generally 3rd year students in their clerkships) that join the team as well. All that being said, their are certain things I don't want a resident or a medical student doing to me procedure wise.

When my husband had heart bypass surgery 7 years ago & we were meeting with the physician pre-op, the surgeon asked if we had any questions. Husband was still a little shell shocked & shook his head. I spoke up & asked if he had any cardio-thoracic fellows that would be assisting in the surgery. The physician turned to me & politely asked me what I did. (He saw my work badge.) I replied that I was a residency coordinator. He cracked a smile (the only time he did the whole appointment), and said no, he did not have any fellows at that time. I know physicians have to learn on someone, but Iearning how to do bypass surgery on my husband made me nervous.

A medical degree does not qualify someone to do surgery. Every 'doctor' goes to Med School, so you're correct in calling them a physician. However in your residency, where you're still a student, you pick between Orthopaedics, ER, Plastics, etc -- some of which are surgical, some are not. Even a fellow is still a student. While a fellowship isn't required in many cases, and those people are qualified to preform the said surgery, they're still a student.

Residents are students. Google it. They are students of an affiliated University, and to your point, are still in training (or students). They graduate from a university, are able to partake in college intramurals, the whole 9 yards. So they are medical students.

And I too work in healthcare and see it every day with my own two eyes. To the average person, whether you want to believe it or not, a resident will preform a surgery under the supervision of an attending who may have 2 rooms running. Not always, and not everywhere, but it is somewhat common at large teaching institutions. Very rarely do I think a resident has a negative outcome on a case. In some cases they may be better than the attending!

 

[DisneyCane]

Uterly false. Cars with this much power you can break the rear end free just by accelerating too hard in a straight line... on a roll even. Apply the power too much, or too soon in a turn... you oversteer and can spin. Carry too much speed into a turn.. you'll understeer and swing wide or snap oversteer trying to get back into the turn. RWD cars with tons of power are difficult for inexperienced drives to control because of their tendency to oversteer. The Lambo they use is a AWD car which helps, along with the computer stability control... but Lambos by choice are designed to be angry monsters - it's their calling card..

Have you actually driven one? You make it sound like they go out of control at the drop of a hat. They don't. I have driven them in the street version of one of these experiences. I went plenty fast on highways and things and did some cornering. I didn't feel even close to losing control no matter what I did.

Youve go it all figured out. I suppose the people I know who have done it were all lying about the 100 mph+ they were reaching, not to mention the countless videos that show it as well.

Going over 100 MPH is not THAT fast on a track, with no other cars near you in a supercar. It's not even THAT fast on an open highway in a sports car. Just because it is a 3 digit number that ends in two zeros doesn't make it a magical speed that causes mayhem by exceeding. They aren't having people push the limits of the capability of the cars where it would be risky and require driving skill. In the NASCAR experience they don't even let the professional drivers go as fast as the cars are capable of when you get one of the ride alongs.

If these experiences are so dangerous, why is this the first time that a serious accident has occurred?

 

[wdisney9000]

Have you actually driven one?

Yes, as well as other exotics, and at high speeds

You make it sound like they go out of control at the drop of a hat.

No I did not. I stated that vehicles can spin out or over/under steer regardless of speed.

Going over 100 MPH is not THAT fast on a track

Just because it is on a race track it does not make 100 mph a slow or safe speed.

It's not even THAT fast on an open highway in a sports car.

Perhaps your average commute is in excess of 90 mph, but most people are not used to travelling at that speed and I was only pointing out that in the event of anything from a wobble to a little drift, the average person may very well not be able to react properly.

 

[Master Yoda]

No I did not. I stated that vehicles can spin out or over/under steer regardless of speed.

Yes. Yes they can.

 

[flynnibus]

Have you actually driven one? You make it sound like they go out of control at the drop of a hat. They don't. I have driven them in the street version of one of these experiences. I went plenty fast on highways and things and did some cornering. I didn't feel even close to losing control no matter what I did.

Yes - this is the track I drive at

Even off the track... a car like a z06 can be spun just trying to accelerate when done poorly. This isn't mario kart where you just mash the pedal or brakes and turn in. Managing your traction is something you have to deal with on both straights and turns. When you have 400+hp... its not simply 'mash and point'

The cars will feel safe when you are conservative... the thing is they are capable of providing way more power, speed, and braking than the tires can actually manage so spins are a constant risk. The computer nanny will keep most people secure in most situations, or minimize the loss of constrol... but you still can get this situation even at low speeds. Like this guy learns the hard way


paging @ScoutN

If these experiences are so dangerous, why is this the first time that a serious accident has occurred?

Because like most things.. it takes an intersection of bad things happening to get really bad. I bet people go off track all the time at this place... its inevitable if you have non-pros behind the wheel. The key is you have an environment where it is safe to do so with minimal risk or damage.

Goto any track day on a real course... people make mistakes all the time and pay with their car's health. The biggest key is making sure people don't seriously injury themselves or cause damage/harm to others. Hence rules on passing, flags, vehicle checks, etc.

 

[ChrisFL]

so they re-open the experience officially, I wonder what track changes we'll see.

 

[DrewmanS]

To clarify, is the fatality a Disney CM or an employee of RPDE?

Lots of people are making comments about the design or safety of the track/guardrails. As I understand it, the track was originally built by the Indy Racing League for their use but ownership remained with WDW. The track is leased to RPDE. So, this fatality is first an OSHA issue with primary liability residing with the employer/operator (assuming the guest driver was not willfully negligent). If track conditions are determined to be a contributor to the fatality (i.e. guardrail design), then liability could be attributed to whomever is responsible for maintaining the track (RPDE or WDW). Lastly, the property owner (WDW) could have liability if they knowing allowed "unsafe" activities to occur on their property. For this reason, WDW likely has an arms length agreement with RPDE meaning the facility is leased to RPDE and WDW is not involved with any aspect of the driving experience operation.

 

[PhotoDave219]

To clarify, is the fatality a Disney CM or an employee of RPDE?

Lots of people are making comments about the design or safety of the track/guardrails. As I understand it, the track was originally built by the Indy Racing League for their use but ownership remained with WDW. The track is leased to RPDE. So, this fatality is first an OSHA issue with primary liability residing with the employer/operator (assuming the guest driver was not willfully negligent). If track conditions are determined to be a contributor to the fatality (i.e. guardrail design), then liability could be attributed to whomever is responsible for maintaining the track (RPDE or WDW). Lastly, the property owner (WDW) could have liability if they knowing allowed "unsafe" activities to occur on their property. For this reason, WDW likely has an arms length agreement with RPDE meaning the facility is leased to RPDE and WDW is not involved with any aspect of the driving experience operation.

They would be an employee of the Exotic Driving Experience, owned by Petty Holdings which is the owner of RPDE.

So while the accident did not take place as part of RPDE, its the same ownership group. Hopefully that makes some sense.

As for the guardrail/track safety? I simply do not have enough knowledge on the subject to speculate beyond the car in this incident drove the opposite way around the track then the IRL cars did.

 

[Innovention18]

It's a shame they let them go backwards on the oval portion of the track. What's the harm in the cars going left in the oval turns, and just reversing the whole course. Unless I'm missing how these cars actually go around, I'd assume it's through the esses and on the oval in a big clock-wise motion. Maybe there was a reason, but it seems inexcusable. Thoughts and prayers to everyone involved.

 

[PhotoDave219]

It's a shame they let them go backwards on the oval portion of the track. What's the harm in the cars going left in the oval turns, and just reversing the whole course. Unless I'm missing how these cars actually go around, I'd assume it's through the esses and on the oval in a big clock-wise motion. Maybe there was a reason, but it seems inexcusable. Thoughts and prayers to everyone involved.

Okay, if you go back to the sample video that someone posted back on page one, it shows someone driving on this course, complete with the instructor telling them what to do.

 

[flynnibus]

It's a shame they let them go backwards on the oval portion of the track. What's the harm in the cars going left in the oval turns, and just reversing the whole course.

Turns are not symmetrical - its not as simple as saying 'go the other way'.

 

[janoimagine]

Have you actually driven one? You make it sound like they go out of control at the drop of a hat. They don't. I have driven them in the street version of one of these experiences. I went plenty fast on highways and things and did some cornering. I didn't feel even close to losing control no matter what I did.

I really don't know where your coming from on this but I have done the Skip Barber School's have trained with the guys from Pursuit, and Filmotechnic and have the ability to do precision driving for features. Yes, a super car with that kind of power plant can get out of control very, very easily, and very, very quickly. That car involved in the crash does 0-60 in under 4 seconds, has almost 400 ftlbs of torque were you to stomp on it ... it has 550 hp ... the e-gears can be super tricky to master ... you can lose it in first gear if your not careful.

I have driven M5's, Vipers, R8's, several Porsche's and even had the opportunity to drive a Bugatti Veyro ... it is simple ... if you dont respect the car it wont respect you ... , and one day of training on a course with an instructor does not make an individual an expert by any means.

It is horrible when an accident like this happens and I feel terrible for the victims family and friends, but when you put a rookie behind the wheel of a 3000lb 500hp exotic ... it's not a matter of if an accident will happen it's a matter of when.

 

[janoimagine]

RWD cars with tons of power are difficult for inexperienced drives to control because of their tendency to oversteer.

Vipers are by far the worst of this class ... at the Autobahn CC in Chicago they have a corner called Viper corner, because every new viper owner who get one almost always wrecks it going into that corner because they get back on the gas too quickly and spin it out.

 

[flynnibus]

It is horrible when an accident like this happens and I feel terrible for the victims family and friends, but when you put a rookie behind the wheel of a 3000lb 500hp exotic ... it's not a matter of if an accident will happen it's a matter of when.

A fun example from 'omg, I can't believe they allow that' category...

Mercedes was a sponsor of one of the major tech tradeshows back in the day and they setup an auto-x course out in the parking lot with their range of cars. Show a driver's license, get in line for which car you want, and go! I trashed a monster v12 S-class and the CLK around the parking lot. Good times

 

[betty rose]

Vipers are by far the worst of this class ... at the Autobahn CC in Chicago they have a corner called Viper corner, because every new viper owner who get one almost always wrecks it going into that corner because they get back on the gas too quickly and spin it out.

For me , sometimes I forget about the pixie dust getting my eyes (not as much today), but before doing anything at Disney I would have thought " it's Disney, how dangerous can it be?" I'm much older and wiser....for me that attraction would be something I would never do, I've been at the Indy 500 and saw many crashes, and these were professional drivers...just wouldn't be my thing....

 

[rob0519]

The driver is going to wish he was dead once he realizes what has transpired.

Well, we don't yet know if there was a mechanical failure involved or if it was simply an accident caused by someone driving a high powered car with which he was not familiar. Either way, I'm sure the driver will be extremely emotionally upset and distraught over being in a fatal accident; one that he possibly caused. Yes, there is "survivor syndrome", wondering why someone else died and you did not. Why would you theorize the driver is going to wish he was dead? Perhaps he will, but perhaps he will be thanking, God, the Cosmos or whatever else he might believe in that he is indeed alive and able to see his family again.

Condolences to the family of the deceased and best wishes to the driver and his family as they try to get past this tragic accident.

 

[janoimagine]

A fun example from 'omg, I can't believe they allow that' category...

Mercedes was a sponsor of one of the major tech tradeshows back in the day and they setup an auto-x course out in the parking lot with their range of cars. Show a driver's license, get in line for which car you want, and go! I trashed a monster v12 S-class and the CLK around the parking lot. Good times

Nice .

When I was a creative on the Dodge account at BBDO they made us do the Skip Barber Schools to get certified for all the competitive ride and drives we use to do at the proving grounds (which were a blast by the way). I remember an account girl bragging that her dad was a race driver, and that he taught her how to drive, so she signed out a Viper from Chrysler and before she even got it back to the agency (which was 10 miles from the World Headquarters in Auburn Hills), she destroyed it coming off the exit ramp on i-75, took the exit ramp too fast and ended up hanging the thing on the guard rail ... did over 70K in damage to the car.

 

[Incomudro]

I may have missed it, but was the exotic car driving experience a Disney thing, or something the Richard Petty school offers?
I can't picture Disney taking the risk of having guests drive high performance stock production cars around a tack.

 

[danlb_2000]

I may have missed it, but was the exotic car driving experience a Disney thing, or something the Richard Petty school offers?
I can't picture Disney taking the risk of having guests drive high performance stock production cars around a tack.

Per @PhotoDave219 , this is run by Exotic Driving Experience, owned by Petty Holdings which is the owner of RPDE.

 

[Incomudro]

Per @PhotoDave219 , this is run by Exotic Driving Experience, owned by Petty Holdings which is the owner of RPDE.

Thank You.
Now that I see this, I'm familiar with it being advertised in Automobile Magazine and Car & Driver.
So, I guess WDW isn't bone headed to put its guests in these production cars.