DAS opinion as its almost 6 months in full effect

[Animaniac93-98]

Spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

I'm surpised you said that considering the first post was by someone who is the parent of an autistic child.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I think you may not understand what the spectrum means, it means everyone has different levels of ability including empathy. Given how many people on the Autism Spectrum know how it feels to be an outsider, many of them have greater empathy than those who've never faced adversity. Also, many normal young children hit people in their family without apologizing, should we assume that they are without empathy as well?

Really? I just went into all of this, and you don't think I know what I'm talking about? Look, I'm an autism advocate; I know perfectly well what it means. And believe it or not, these psychologists understand humans better than those with autism understand themselves, just like a doctor will understand a medical condition better. And yes, young children lack empathy until they learn it. My younger brother has very little empathy, and many on the spectrum have stated that they don't understand emotions

Please read this, and the links they mention. Autism Speaks benefits parents of children with Autism, but not people who actually have Autism. In fact they've ignored people who are Autistic who have criticized them. They also have a history of promoting a cure for Autism which is very controversial, as it also ties into eugenics suggesting Autistic people should be prevented from being born. To say I'm horrified that they were involved with this is the least I can say, but it certainly explains why it has been such a bad system.

http://thecaffeinatedautistic.wordpress.com/so-what-is-the-problem-with-autism-speaks/

I completely disagree with this article. Curing autism means reducing the risk for developing it, not going into eugenics. Early intervention means better quality of life. Also, I have to ask, have you used this system? Because my younger brother has, and he is FAR less verbal than you are, yet he has managed to say, "Hey, I'm good, this is fine." You have not provided any experience as to why this system harms you specifically; it's all in theory.

 

[violet_yoshi]

Maybe they meant the second one.

 

[violet_yoshi]

Really? I just went into all of this, and you don't think I know what I'm talking about? Look, I'm an autism advocate; I know perfectly well what it means. And believe it or not, these psychologists understand humans better than those with autism understand themselves, just like a doctor will understand a medical condition better. And yes, young children lack empathy until they learn it. My younger brother has very little empathy, and many on the spectrum have stated that

I completely disagree with this article. Curing autism means reducing the risk for developing it, not going into eugenics. Early intervention means better quality of life. Also, I have to ask, have you used this system? Because my younger brother has, and he is FAR less verbal than you are, yet he has managed to say, "Hey, I'm good, this is fine." You have not provided any experience as to why this system harms you specifically; it's all in theory.

I...I'm sorry.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

maybe this doesn't make sense to some...but wouldn't it be possible to let DAS guests assign one of every ride in the park a set time. If they don't like a certain ride, don't schedule it....but make it one ride per day. This would enable them to access everything Disney has to offer. I don't see how Disney could just promise the ability to keep jumping back in the FP line for certain attractions...Soarin', PP, etc., especially during busy seasons.

Only problem is that some kids would like to ride things multiple times. For instance, my younger brother would prefer to ride Space Mountain 3 or 4 times and never do Buzz Lightyear. The DAS system allows that for the moment. It's not a perfect system, but at least it's starting to prevent the abuse.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I...I'm sorry.

I strongly suggest you read Disney's DAS policy. If when you and others visit the parks you think that DAS will not accommodate your needs, speak to a CM or manager about another method. If you really think that this will not work for you, they will work with you:

The DAS card, with its virtual wait, will accommodate many of our Guests with disabilities. We
recognize, however, that our Guests with disabilities have varying needs, and we will continue to
work individually with our Guests to provide assistance.
In unique situations, our Guest Relations staff will discuss special accommodations for persons who
are concerned the DAS Card doesn't meet their needs (e.g., for those whose disability limits the
duration of their visit to the park or limits their choice of attractions).

 

[SherlockWayne]

I find it interesting reading both sides of the issue, and to be brutally honest, I think an argument loses credibility once the whole "I'd gladly trade the GAC/DAS to have a normal life or normal healthy kids etc.." line gets thrown out there.

The hard truth is, there is no such thing as normal. What looks normal to one person could be agony for another. I love going to the Disney parks, but have to avoid them more and more for a couple reasons. First, I get very uncomfortable in groups, and second, I am extremely self conscious about visiting the parks alone, which is typically the case. Waiting in long lines silently, watching and hearing all of the families enjoying their time together is extremely difficult to deal with.

Now, I have no disabilities (I don't consider Social Anxiety Disorder and Depression to be disabilities), and I'm in reasonably good health, but the existence of long lines makes it hard for me to visit the parks as well. Should I be entitled to DAS? Should I expect Disney to make that accommodation for me? I spend all of my time alone due to a crippling fear of people, and theme parks provide a respite from the misery that comes with that, so if the lines are keeping me away, do I have the right to demand an accommodation? I'd give just about anything to be "normal" with some friends or companionship of any kind, but because I don't have any major health problems, I guess I should just be happy to be so normal and healthy.

What about financial disabilities? If a Guest is only going to be able to afford one trip in their lifetime, shouldn't there be an accommodation to ensure they get to see everything? Seems like if Disney doesn't, that's not an equal experience for all Guests.

The big problem I see is the same problem I see with every controversial issue. People only want things to change to be fit their exact situation without thought to the other ramifications. The decisions regarding DAS need to be made in an objective unimpassioned way. To my mind, if Autism is granted that concession, then a whole spectrum of issues also should be respected, ranging from IBS to ADHD. A good lawyer probably could make the case for anyone having a need to bypass lines. It's just not practical to expect Disney or any park to do this. I feel the accommodations need to be addressed in a very exact manner, which I feel DAS does. If you cannot wait in line, Disney is making that accommodation in as fair of a way as possible. I'm all for front of the line access for folks with disabilities, but I'm a big fan of the phrase "You can't have it both ways". My feelings are, by the time you grant a GAC to everyone who can make a case for it, you're right back to the old days with no FP lines at all.

There is a degree of personal responsibility that needs to be exercised when visiting a theme park. I have learned my limits, and plan around them as best I can, knowing full well I'm not entitled to any special treatment. You won't catch me any where near any park next week, but you can bet I'm looking forward to the off-season(ish) weeks. I'll use FastPass where I can, and hop in short waits where I can, but I'll always be sure I have a plan in mind. Theme parks have lines, it's just about the only place left where one can reasonably expect to have to wait a long time to experience. To go to a park expecting anything different is, in my humble opinion, inherently unreasonable. Which is exactly the same word I would use to describe both the previous GAC program, and this extremely silly and idiotic lawsuit.

 

[Tom Morrow]

maybe this doesn't make sense to some...but wouldn't it be possible to let DAS guests assign one of every ride in the park a set time. If they don't like a certain ride, don't schedule it....but make it one ride per day. This would enable them to access everything Disney has to offer. I don't see how Disney could just promise the ability to keep jumping back in the FP line for certain attractions...Soarin', PP, etc., especially during busy seasons.

This essentially gives the DAS user a Fastpass for every ride. Disney offers VIP treatment for an (extreme) upcharge. Other parks, like Universal, offer a similar upcharge for this perk (which is why it isn't fair to compare Universal's Express Pass to Disney's Fastpass system). Unless these users are paying for it, they shouldn't be able to ride more than everyone else if they aren't paying more than everyone else.

Currently, they can ride the same amount as everyone (although if they are savvy with their time and Fastpass, still more than a non-DAS holder) while not physically having to wait in the queues.

 

[violet_yoshi]

I strongly suggest you read Disney's DAS policy. If when you and others visit the parks you think that DAS will not accommodate your needs, speak to a CM or manager about another method. If you really think that this will not work for you, they will work with you:

My family tried talking to a CM on our last trip. When we tried to give them a note explaining my needs, she flipped out saying "I DON'T NEED TO READ THAT!" The CMs were so petrified that someone would even think they read medical records, that they were refusing to read doctors notes. They demanded I prove my disability which for many people with Autism causes rage and sadness, as they are made to choose between humiliating themselves by acting like a , or to not get the help they need.

I understand it seems unfair to people seeing those with disabilities given special accommodations, the problem is they're basing fairness on a faulty scale. Life has not been fair to people who have disabilities many people with them would give anything to be normal enough to wait in line. They don't want to be singled out, now they face having their needs ignored, being forced into acting out a humiliating and degrading stereotype of what a person with mental disability acts like to get what they need. They need this, this isn't something they're doing for fun. Having a disability isn't fun.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I think that's taking it too far. Just because something was accomplished, that doesn't mean it's sustainable or qualified success. The shift in how ride access is distributed also changes the playing field compared to the past GAC usage. Scale of the usage also is another factor where one could justify change.

In the lawsuit, the plaintiffs state emphatically that GAC worked for them. From their perspective, GAC was a success. The plaintiffs are claiming GAC worked for them but DAS does not.

Disney's official response to the lawsuit has been to claim "We fully comply with all ADA requirements and believe that the legal claims are without merit." Legally, Disney is not claiming that GAC was unsustainable. See:

http://www.deadline.com/2014/04/disney-parks-lawsuit-autism/

IMHO, Disney is wise to take this approach. If they were to defend the change to DAS because the GAC system was unsustainable or was being abused, they would lose the case. Legally, it would be an indefensible position.

GAC satisfied the requirements of ADA. That point is not being disputed by Disney or the plaintiffs.

As written, ADA is not a symmetrical law and offers no protection to the non-disabled. In this sense, ADA is not about being "fair". It's about defending the rights of the disabled.

A private corporation can seek exception from ADA only if "the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" or it causes an "undue financial burden". The onus is the company to demonstrate this, not the plaintiff.

DLR/WDW offers a FP/FP+ line. DAS uses that. So did GAC. GAC and DAS did not fundamentally alter the nature of such services, no more than a handicap stall or ramp fundamentally alters the physical facilities. The operative word is "fundamentally".

A company cannot seek an exception because the system was being abused by some. (Frankly, if they could, it would invalidate most U.S. laws. ) It's simply not permitted by the law.

Beyond that, if there was widespread abuse at WDW, then the Standby wait times at WDW should have decreased. Yet according to an analysis performed by touringplans.com, wait times haven't appreciably changed in a "before-and-after" comparison of FP/FP+, which happens to correspond to the GAC/DAS transition. See:

http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/04/03/how-fastpass-plus-affects-your-wait-update/

At this time, there is no objective evidence that the system was subject to widespread abuse at WDW.

Too many are ignoring the legal issue being litigated, injecting their personal views in the case. This is not an public election or opinion poll. This is a lawsuit. In court, it needs to be argued by its legal merits.

The system doesn't need to be fair and equitable between WDW's two classes of guest (i.e. disabled vs. non-disabled). It has to satisfy ADA as long as the necessary modifications are reasonable.

It's a simple question: Does DAS comply with ADA?

 

[violet_yoshi]

You're right. I guess those of us with disabilities just feel we've been made helpless once again with a system like this. At least if they trained the CMs to handle it calmly that would help. It's extremely emotionally upsetting for people with disabilities to ask for help only to be told they can't receive it, or if they do they must jump through hoops to accomplish getting what they need. It's very fortunate that the true reason I couldn't stand in line was my feet were hurting, and I got some Skechers memory foam shoes that really helped with that. There were times I felt anxious, but I had become quite skilled at knowing it's better to try and ignore it then become upset.

I'm speaking for those who do not have the ability to do that. Those who felt Disney was one of the few places that accepted them as they are, and were faced with the devastation that Disney not only changed the system, but had CMs who were yelling at people in Town Hall at Magic Kingdom terrifying children with mental disabilities. It shouldn't be so difficult to know to keep your voice down around people who may have sensory sensitivities.

You have parents wondering why the CMs won't listen, wondering why they're targeting their child and making a spectacle of them. A situation that reminds many people with mental disabilities of being bullied in school. Most of all many people with mental disabilities want to please others, when you have a CM making demands of them they cannot meet, putting them in a situation that brings them fear of bullying and taunting. I felt upset, I felt such anxiety I thought I might puke, and I can function pretty well in most situations.

This is just not Disney quality, at the very least they could have explained the situation where the CMs were going to be loud.That children who suffer PTSD from bullying in school would be told to announce their disability in front of everyone. I can do that online because I'm anonymous, but for some reason that made me feel extremely upset. Not just because it was unlikely they'd believe me because I have an invisible disability.

I just felt what's the point, is it worth everywhere I go getting into an argument with a CM, or having to present myself as "autistic" and face humiliation by people who would pick on someone like that? Maybe it's that feeling of not knowing what to do to get what you need, I don't know how to act "disabled". I don't want to have to put a performance on flapping my arms and making noises. It's just another reminder that people feel it's okay to toy with the emotions of someone who has a disability. Now not every CM would do this, most wouldn't I'm sure. Those that would, those that would say you can't get the help you need you don't look Autistic. Even if I did act that way I couldn't keep the act up, then people will say I was faking it. All this could have easily been solved if they just would read the signed note from my psychiatrist.

I ended up having a good time. However now I realize just how people who don't understand this really don't get what the problem is. They think it's people who have functional disabilities cheating the system. Even saying they should just accept once again they're not allowed to participate in something normal people can. How do you tell a child you can't go to Disney World because people decided you're not welcome because you were born with a disability? How do you make sense of that, that which even full grown adults cannot understand? Those like myself, we've grown up living in a world that constantly invalidated us when we said we were upset or in pain. To think it's going to happen again, it's happening again is terribly frightening.

It's people without disabilities saying "I don't think those r-words should be in Disney World if they can't control themselves." People who all their lives tried to please others, be good children, who apologize when their bodies betray them. Now something else is taken from them through no fault of their own. It may be a just be a legal issue to you. Those those of us with disabilities this is about us fighting to be able to access life just as normal people do. Do you think a child enjoys being so handicapped mentally they can't communicate? Is it so hard to understand they deserve joy in their life, even if it means they have to commit the horrible crime of going ahead in line? I've lost part of my faith in humanity reading about what people have had to say about this. I learned a lot about selfishness too. It is selfish being a normal person and demanding those who are disabled suffer so you can feel you're being treated fairly.

I've learned there is no fairness for disabled people, those who are privileged with being normal minded and normal bodied will fight them at any turn they try to seek it.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

This is why the GAC card was important, it meant not just skipping line, it meant skipping the unpredictability of people around them, and their insensitivity to their child's suffering.

But the DAS scheme still offers this very concession. You don't wait in line, you wait outside of the line free to experience anything else in the park. What the DAS is not, is an unlimited near immediate access fastpass like the GAC was.

I don't think many people would seriously be against a front of the line pass for severely disabled people, that's why schemes such as the 'Give Kids the World' and 'Make a Wish' still exist in the parks. However, what has developed through unintended consequence in trying to protect peoples medical privacy is a simple way to abuse any system that offers a form of benefit. In my view, the problem is that once you have such a system, every is claiming to need some form of adaptation, just handing out front of the lines passes was not a solution and never should have been. The ADA is about protecting the rights of disabled people to be able to access services and facilities etc, not provide immediate access to them.

As written, ADA is not a symmetrical law and offers no protection to the non-disabled. In this sense, ADA is not about being "fair". It's about defending the rights of the disabled.

A private corporation can seek exception from ADA only if "the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" or it causes an "undue financial burden". The onus is the company to demonstrate this, not the plaintiff.

DLR/WDW offers a FP/FP+ line. DAS uses that. So did GAC. GAC and DAS did not fundamentally alter the nature of such services, no more than a handicap stall or ramp fundamentally alters the physical facilities. The operative word is "fundamentally".

A company cannot seek an exception because the system was being abused by some. (Frankly, if they could, it would invalidate most U.S. laws. ) It's simply not permitted by the law.

Beyond that, if there was widespread abuse at WDW, then the Standby wait times at WDW should have decreased. Yet according to an analysis performed by touringplans.com, wait times haven't appreciably changed in a "before-and-after" comparison of FP/FP+, which happens to correspond to the GAC/DAS transition. See:

http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/04/03/how-fastpass-plus-affects-your-wait-update/

At this time, there is no objective evidence that the system was subject to widespread abuse at WDW.

Too many are ignoring the legal issue being litigated, injecting their personal views in the case. This is not an public election or opinion poll. This is a lawsuit. In court, it needs to be argued by its legal merits.

The system doesn't need to be fair and equitable between WDW's two classes of guest (i.e. disabled vs. non-disabled). It has to satisfy ADA as long as the necessary modifications are reasonable.

It's a simple question: Does DAS comply with ADA?

But Disney isn't claiming it is exempt from the ADA.
Neither can I think in any way how DAS isn't ADA compliant. I don't see any part of the ADA which requires organisation to provide people with a disability immediate access to a service. If someone is unable to wait a long time in a line, then a reasonable adjustment may be to say "come back at x o'clock and we will see you immediately i.e. an appointment - exactly what DAS is.

Is DAS as beneficial to is its users as GAC? No, that's easy.
Does that mean Disney cannot change the assistance/adaptions it offers even if it is less beneficial users whilst still being ADA complaint? Yes of course it can.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

You're right. I guess those of us with disabilities just feel we've been made helpless once again with a system like this. At least if they trained the CMs to handle it calmly that would help. It's extremely emotionally upsetting for people with disabilities to ask for help only to be told they can't receive it, or if they do they must jump through hoops to accomplish getting what they need. It's very fortunate that the true reason I couldn't stand in line was my feet were hurting, and I got some Skechers memory foam shoes that really helped with that. There were times I felt anxious, but I had become quite skilled at knowing it's better to try and ignore it then become upset.

A genuine question, why would someone with disabilities feel made helpless by the system?

As I understand it, you tell GS you need some additional accommodation, they ask what you need and they give you a DAS which enables you go gain these accommodations. Unless it's I need to get to the front of the line immediately and without limits on re-rides.....because a non-disabled guest cannot do this so there is nothing to protect against.

 

[violet_yoshi]

I guess that's what I should have done. Of course there are many stories that people would go to guest services and get told another story completely different to the last guest service at another park because the rules are constant. Also unless you appear mentally disabled people will assume you're trying to cheat the system, so you won't get extra help.

You have to understand for people with disabilities you can't just walk into the park and get on rides. If you have a mental disability you have to negotiate with a GS person or a CM over your needs. Perhaps this would help you to understand.

http://www.atragickingdom.com/

This is a blog of stories written by parents who have experienced frustration with the DAS system. If you won't listen to me, will you listen to them?

 

[Anthony Alsup]

I'm surpised you said that considering the first post was by someone who is the parent of an autistic child.

I was speaking of the 2nd, which seems to be the posters opinion.

 

[The Mom]

It appears that people cannot discuss this without personal attacks - or perceiving another point of view to be one, so again, it will be locked.