DAS opinion as its almost 6 months in full effect

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Ariel Savage

Active Member
. Positive discrimination in favor of guests with disabilities is still negative discrimination in everyone else's eyes.

Most of the world does not give "positive discrimination" to people with disabilities so if Disney wants to make someone with a disability wait 10 minutes less for a boat ride with some robots in it, is that really so bad? I understand why people get upset about the system being abused, and Disney did address that, but Disney is like the one place in the world that is trying to roll out the red carpet for a child/adult/family that has had some rough days, whether it's dealing with surgeries, pain, discrimination, judgment, etc. Who cares? Just count your blessings that you never need to ask for a DAS. I'd kill to not ever have to worry about accommodations, wheelchairs, or funny looks from your healthy kids ever again. I'd gladly trade the DAS for that any day.
 
Just reading this topic for the first time & have been unaware of this until now. I just don't know where the line should be drawn in terms of who has access to DAS. My teenage DD has a limiting heart condition but I would never have asked for any special treatment at the rides for her. We just adjust our behaviour. & park plan to limit time waiting in line. As she dehydrates quickly. We have always accepted these adjustments as just part of life . She just wants to be like other teenagers & doesn't want a fuss made or any attention drawn to her. Even if she could get special treatment she wouldn't 't want it.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Most of the world does not give "positive discrimination" to people with disabilities so if Disney wants to make someone with a disability wait 10 minutes less for a boat ride with some robots in it, is that really so bad?
What we think is “fair” doesn’t matter. In the eyes of the court, unless we represent Disney or have a disability, we hold no legal standing.

ADA doesn’t cover the non-disabled. It’s concerned with protecting the rights of the disabled. In the case of WDW, it’s a battle between corporate Disney and those with disabilities who claim Disney’s new DAS insufficiently accommodates their disabilities.

The fundamental question is whether DAS satisfies the “reasonable accommodation” test.

A judge will have to decide whether making Little Johnny with Autism wait 50 minutes for a FP+ return time for Peter Pan is a reasonable accommodation of his disability. It doesn’t matter if non-disabled guests have to stand in line for 50 minutes.

Paraphrasing from the movie Unforgiven, fair’s got nothin' to do with it.

If Little Johnny legitimately needs quick access to accommodate his disability, and this access does not “fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations”, then Disney has to provide it.

You get 2 attorneys on opposite sides of the case and they’re going to have completely different interpretations of ADA. However, if I correctly understand ADA, the burden of proof is on Disney. Someone in a wheelchair does not have to prove they need a ramp for access. Disney has to provide that ramp unless they can demonstrate that it poses an “undue financial burden”. Similarly, someone with a cognitive disorder doesn’t have to prove they cannot wait in line. Per ADA, Disney isn’t even permitted to ask for proof, which is why GAC and even DAS have been subject to abuse.

As I wrote previously, Disney cannot claim that GAC posed an “undue financial burden” because they used it for years and were highly profitable throughout. From ADA’s perspective, GAC was a reasonable accommodation.

Is DAS also a reasonable accommodation?

The courts will decide.
 

Mouse_Trap

Well-Known Member
To correct the misconception, the GAC was not a "front of the line" card. It put you in the fastpass line.

Agreed, but FP is essentially marketed as a 'front of the line' card.
As from the image below "Get a time, why wait in line" and "Zip back to the FASTPASS return land during your Return Time, and hop on the attraction with little or no wait".

Being able to utilise the FP line all day is in effect like a front of the line gold ticket and I don't see how that can be disputed.

Disney-World-FastPass.gif


My other gripe is that I wish they would go the Universal route where it's 30 minutes or less goes in the FP+ queue, more than 30 minutes gives you a return time. Currently it is 10 minutes or less goes standby, more than 10 minutes gets a return time. The second complaint will more or less be a non-issue for us if it's integrated with the app.

Glad to hear it's working out quite well for you. Not like the complete disater some doom-sayers were predicting. However, why do you think it should be adjusted to 30 mins or less for FP lines? To my understanding, it's 10 minutes because you can reasonably expect the FP line to take around that. Now changing it to 30 means that someone using the DAS card can save 20 minutes off each attraction each time compared to someone using the standby line. That would present a major advantage which unfortunately would encourage people to abuse the system.
 
Have you seen the fastpass line for Soarin? But for real, it depends on the rides. Some were pretty much walkons and some were still a 10-15 min wait. My only point was that it was not the "stop the world" head of the line pass some made it out to be.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
In the Parks
Yes
Well I am glad the tempers have cooled and reasonable discussion of its merits can be discussed in a civil manner now.

The world still spins, children and adults alike smile, the mouse continues for another season.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
"Disney would not make them travel all the way to an attraction only to be told to leave and come back later"

So, if Disney created a central hub for those using DAS to get return times, everything would be fine?
I wonder if Disney could build DAS into MDE somehow...
Putting it on the kiosks like in Disneyland and/or MDE would be beneficial.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear it's working out quite well for you. Not like the complete disater some doom-sayers were predicting. However, why do you think it should be adjusted to 30 mins or less for FP lines? To my understanding, it's 10 minutes because you can reasonably expect the FP line to take around that. Now changing it to 30 means that someone using the DAS card can save 20 minutes off each attraction each time compared to someone using the standby line. That would present a major advantage which unfortunately would encourage people to abuse the system.
This is an opinion, nothing more. I think most rides have wait times more than 10 minutes and with the current issue of having to visit an attraction first there is more double backing than necessary. As I said though, I think this will be far less of an issue if this is put on MDE.

Previously when my family of 9 went around the park with a GAC, we still accomplished less than my wife and I without a GAC. The GAC was convenient because it didn't require back tracking, the current DAS requires it to a certain extent. As I said though, it's a minor gripe, and one that I think/hope will be fixed soon.
 

Ariel Savage

Active Member
I see your post and I raise you the following:
10151374_10102327446106374_6633183978604517838_n.jpg
998485_10102327446131324_5933620668865628658_n.jpg
Not much of a raise then. Sacrifice their own experience? Self entitlement? We are talking about an amusement park here. No one is asking anyone to sacrifice their quality of life or turn down a life changing opportunity. All I'm saying that it is a truly huge dick move for an adult to complain about waiting in line at an amusement park, as your friend with his/her horrible misspellings has pointed out for all of us. Again, I would relish the day where my sister could stand in line for 2 hours without the aid of crutches or a wheelchair. I've prayed for that day. So please, tell me more about how DAS hurts your feelings.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
My question is, how does Disney determine someone is disabled or Autistic, if you can't tell visually? Do the families have to provide a Dr.'s note? What about other disabilities such as Cerebral Palsy or Down syndrome?
Seriously, you only have to talk to them for a few minutes to figure it out.

My complaint with the system is that it only caters to those with autism when others with disabilities could use it as well.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Most of the world does not give "positive discrimination" to people with disabilities so if Disney wants to make someone with a disability wait 10 minutes less for a boat ride with some robots in it, is that really so bad? I understand why people get upset about the system being abused, and Disney did address that, but Disney is like the one place in the world that is trying to roll out the red carpet for a child/adult/family that has had some rough days, whether it's dealing with surgeries, pain, discrimination, judgment, etc. Who cares? Just count your blessings that you never need to ask for a DAS. I'd kill to not ever have to worry about accommodations, wheelchairs, or funny looks from your healthy kids ever again. I'd gladly trade the DAS for that any day.
May I give your post 1,000 likes?
 
Not much of a raise then. Sacrifice their own experience? Self entitlement? We are talking about an amusement park here. No one is asking anyone to sacrifice their quality of life or turn down a life changing opportunity. All I'm saying that it is a truly huge dick move for an adult to complain about waiting in line at an amusement park, as your friend with his/her horrible misspellings has pointed out for all of us. Again, I would relish the day where my sister could stand in line for 2 hours without the aid of crutches or a wheelchair. I've prayed for that day. So please, tell me more about how DAS hurts your feelings.

Well as someone with a form of Autism, Asperger's Syndrome, I'll tell you how the DAS does more than hurt people's feelings. People with forms of Autism have a hyper-reactive sensory system. This means sudden loud sounds, being touched without being prepared for it, can cause them to experience real physical pain and fear. I have read the stories here of the parents who are suing Disney:

http://dogalilaw.com/files/86572403.pdf

They speak of children who will bite, attack people, or even vomit if they are pushed into a meltdown by the unpredictable and frankly loud behavior of most people they are unfamiliar with. Your sister may need to use crutches or a wheelchair, thank God that she doesn't have a condition that makes her vomit because someone startled them. Also, people are much much more understanding of people with physical disabilities than mental disabilities.

People with mental disabilities and their families face pain from unkind people who when seeing their child behave in a way they cannot control, many people see nothing wrong with calling them , spaz, or other slurs should as someone Autistic said on their blog "show their Autism". Many people think it's funny to make the upset, they'll see someone flailing their arms or hitting their head and laugh at them. This can ruin not just a day at Disney World, it can make them feel as if they are a horrible person. To blame themselves and fear others.

I've been bouncing around Disney boards discussing this because I feel most people don't get it as there are people with Autism who can't really speak for themselves on this issue, so I'm trying to be their voice. I'm trying to get people to understand it's more than some selfish brat not wanting to wait their turn. It's a child who's a victim of their own neurology and body. Who has to fight melting down to survive in a world that will ruthlessly mock them should they do. People don't help people with Autism if they cover their ears, or slap themselves. They just point and say horrible things about them.

This is why the GAC card was important, it meant not just skipping line, it meant skipping the unpredictability of people around them, and their insensitivity to their child's suffering. It's very hard living in a world where when you feel or experience pain you know the majority of the time instead of being understood or shown concern, people will tell you to stop being oversensitive and to get over it.

I think this lawsuit may make more people aware of how people with Autism struggle through life dealing with people who aren't merely insensitive towards them, but who will bully them. That disability is not a matter of choice people with forms of Autism didn't have a choice in asking for them. Suggesting that Disney Parks are a right not a privilege, is essentially saying Disney Parks are a right for people who have been blessed to be free of disabilities and that people with disabilities are looking to have a undeserved privilege. It is privilege to be free from a disability and it's a display of that privilege to say those with disabilities shouldn't be able to go to the park if they can't control themselves.

It's like punishing someone for breathing, you are punishing people for things they have absolutely no way of controlling. People who have been punished most of their lives for the way their brains and bodies betray them. It must take a great amount of a lack of empathy or compassion to suggest certain people can't participate in visiting Disney because they can't force their minds and their bodies to be normal. It's what causes those with disabilities to resort to things like self-harm to keep from displaying their mental disability in public, what causes children to go home crying "Why can't I be normal?", to cause children to view themselves as freaks and undesirables. Sometimes people have enough of living in a world that punishes them for just existing as they are. By supporting a system that makes life harder for people who have suffered, who have felt like outsiders, to say they shouldn't be able to enjoy a Disney Park. All I can say is, I really hope someday those people consider they need to stop thinking only of the way life affects them.

They say people with mental disabilities like Autism lack empathy, but time and time again I've only seen this displayed in people who don't have mental disabilities towards those who do have them. Please thank whoever you believe in, thank them for giving you a perfect body and mind, thank them for seeing that you don't have to live a life full of fear where people instead of comforting you when you're scared just laugh and tease you for your fears. Thank them for seeing you're not the one who has to face the cruelty of others saying you shouldn't be allowed to visit Disney Parks, because of how you were born.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
My parents have used the DAS with my younger brother who is on the autism spectrum. They did not have an issue with it. More planning is required, but everyone has to plan, so it's fair.

Basically what happened is my mom went to Guest Services. She said that my brother has autism and they handled it. They took his photo and gave her the card. They did ask him questions, possibly to assess that yes he did have a legitimate disability (not hard to tell with him; he can't form an entire sentence properly and speaks in the 3rd person) and they gave her the card. When she filled the slots, all she had to do was bring it back to guest relations and they'd give her another one. It went pretty smoothly, which I expected it would. When we went to DL they had a similar system in place for Radiator Springs Racers and it worked fine to say "Look, we will ride it, but not yet."

What's nice is that you can send one runner to go get a ride, so if they knew that, for instance, they wanted to do Space Mountain, one of them would go get FPs for Space Mountain and the other would take him to do something else. They also used FP+, so they would plan it so that they would be using a FP+ while they were waiting for the DAS time to come up. If the wait was 20 minutes or less, they would use standby as they have always done. They don't want him to have a meltdown, but at the same time, they want him to learn to wait, not get a sense of entitlement, and have as much normalcy in his life as possible, so they explained to him "Because you have autism, this is a special pass you get when the line is really long so that you don't feel so anxious, but if the line is not long, we want you to be patient like everyone else". It usually works for him.

DAS guests still probably manage to get on more stuff than guests without it, but many kids on the autism spectrum also check out early (My brother will sometimes check out up to 3 hours before my dad and I do) and they need more frequent breaks usually so it evens out. With DAS, my parents reported that they were doing about the same, maybe slightly more, attractions than they did on legacy FP without GAC.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
@violet_yoshi
I see what you are saying, and as someone with a sibling on the autism spectrum, don't think for one second that I don't sympathize or try to understand, but at the same time, the system was subjected to a substantial amount of abuse. And the thing is, the abuse didn't just hurt the "normal" people; it hurt those who legitimately needed the pass as well. Because of people who abused it, it increased wait times for you in the FP line.

All this pass means is that instead of getting direct access to the FP line, you have to wait a bit longer to have access. That may mean getting on something with a short line (such as PeopleMover) or getting yourself a snack, using a FP+ in between, or going someplace quiet and turning your mind off for a few minutes, but you CAN make it work.
There's been a thread about this lawsuit that was deleted. The problem is that this argument can easily be proven invalid, such as one point about Disney not providing information ahead of time about the system when it is available on their Website. This lawsuit will most likely be dismissed by a federal judge almost immediately.
Also, people are much much more understanding of people with physical disabilities than mental disabilities.
Maybe my experience is different from yours, but while there are people who are not understanding of my younger brother, especially mid meltdown, the majority are. Also, I had moderate-severe asthma, and I quite often find that people aren't very understanding of that either. My own relatives can be inconsiderate when smoking around me. I ask them to stand a certain way, and unless my aunt, the family matriarch, tells them differently, I get blown off even when they hear me wheezing. This is my RELATIVES. Any disability, physical or mental, will encounter those who are understanding and those who are not.

People with mental disabilities and their families face pain from unkind people who when seeing their child behave in a way they cannot control, many people see nothing wrong with calling them , spaz, or other slurs should as someone Autistic said on their blog "show their Autism". Many people think it's funny to make the upset, they'll see someone flailing their arms or hitting their head and laugh at them. This can ruin not just a day at Disney World, it can make them feel as if they are a horrible person. To blame themselves and fear others.
People are cruel. That's life. I hate that it happens, but again, it happens to the person who can't control her acne, the person who is naturally thin and gets called anorexic, the person who likes comic books and gets called a nerd. It's horrible that people are cruel, and the slurs are very hurtful, but my experience is these slurs are becoming far less frequent as education about these mental disabilities increases.

I've been bouncing around Disney boards discussing this because I feel most people don't get it as there are people with Autism who can't really speak for themselves on this issue, so I'm trying to be their voice. I'm trying to get people to understand it's more than some selfish brat not wanting to wait their turn. It's a child who's a victim of their own neurology and body. Who has to fight melting down to survive in a world that will ruthlessly mock them should they do. People don't help people with Autism if they cover their ears, or slap themselves. They just point and say horrible things about them.
Disney worked with Austism Speaks on this program to ensure that this is the best way to benefit all of you. These are psychologists and behaviorists, the people not on the spectrum who understand you best. Disney realizes that this is not your fault and they are trying to create a program that is fair and well-balanced. Other people are just cruel, and would point and stare at anyone who behaves strangely. Not everyone is like that though.

This is why the GAC card was important, it meant not just skipping line, it meant skipping the unpredictability of people around them, and their insensitivity to their child's suffering. It's very hard living in a world where when you feel or experience pain you know the majority of the time instead of being understood or shown concern, people will tell you to stop being oversensitive and to get over it.
Again, while I understand and empathize with your situation, Disney worked with Autism Speaks so that you'd have a voice. This program is meant to benefit you, not punish you.

They say people with mental disabilities like Autism lack empathy, but time and time again I've only seen this displayed in people who don't have mental disabilities towards those who do have them. Please thank whoever you believe in, thank them for giving you a perfect body and mind, thank them for seeing that you don't have to live a life full of fear where people instead of comforting you when you're scared just laugh and tease you for your fears. Thank them for seeing you're not the one who has to face the cruelty of others saying you shouldn't be allowed to visit Disney Parks, because of how you were born.
Those on the autism spectrum do lack empathy. It's why I constantly get whacked on the head by my brother, and only once has he ever realized that it hurt and hugged me. Not his fault, though; I try to avoid the swipe.

And if you think any of us have perfect bodies, minds, or that we've never been teased, bullied, harassed, or felt insecure, you are mistaken. For you and those like you, it's amplified. No one here had said that those with autism should not be allowed to visit, and if anyone did, other members here would correct them very quickly. Please don't let the few who are harsh color your opinion of those who are not or who are simply ignorant.
 
Please read this, and the links they mention. Autism Speaks benefits parents of children with Autism, but not people who actually have Autism. In fact they've ignored people who are Autistic who have criticized them. They also have a history of promoting a cure for Autism which is very controversial, as it also ties into eugenics suggesting Autistic people should be prevented from being born. To say I'm horrified that they were involved with this is the least I can say, but it certainly explains why it has been such a bad system.

http://thecaffeinatedautistic.wordpress.com/so-what-is-the-problem-with-autism-speaks/
 

Dwarful

Well-Known Member
maybe this doesn't make sense to some...but wouldn't it be possible to let DAS guests assign one of every ride in the park a set time. If they don't like a certain ride, don't schedule it....but make it one ride per day. This would enable them to access everything Disney has to offer. I don't see how Disney could just promise the ability to keep jumping back in the FP line for certain attractions...Soarin', PP, etc., especially during busy seasons.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
As I wrote previously, Disney cannot claim that GAC posed an “undue financial burden” because they used it for years and were highly profitable throughout. From ADA’s perspective, GAC was a reasonable accommodation.

I think that's taking it too far. Just because something was accomplished, that doesn't mean it's sustainable or qualified success. The shift in how ride access is distributed also changes the playing field compared to the past GAC usage. Scale of the usage also is another factor where one could justify change.

If your old model was the gas station attendant would leave the counter and go help someone.. and you were able to do that for years because you only had a two pump station... that doesn't mean today with your new 16 pump station with 4x the customers the same model is proven as 'reasonable'. The situation changed, and the practicality of the previous accommodation is not the same. Not a one to one with Disney.. but chosen to illustrate that just because something was done previously, doesn't mean a company can not argue it's no longer viable.
 
@violet_yoshi
Those on the autism spectrum do lack empathy. It's why I constantly get whacked on the head by my brother, and only once has he ever realized that it hurt and hugged me. Not his fault, though; I try to avoid the swipe.

I think you may not understand what the spectrum means, it means everyone has different levels of ability including empathy. Given how many people on the Autism Spectrum know how it feels to be an outsider, many of them have greater empathy than those who've never faced adversity. Also, many normal young children hit people in their family without apologizing, should we assume that they are without empathy as well?
 
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