Daily Beast - "Workers Reveal Disney Is Covering Up Its COVID Cases"

CJR

Well-Known Member
You're entitled to dislike this article. But good journalism actually should try to "fill in the blanks" in a story in order to figure out what the story actually is and to make it make sense to the reader. A bullet list of facts wouldn't make much sense to anyone.

I think everyone has their own definition of what is considered "good". Just speaking personally, but I want the truth and only the truth. So, I would prefer the bullet points.

To each their own though, I'm glad that you like it.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
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And that's why you look at their examples given.. and look at what they are actually saying. Like all but one cited examples were nothing more than "people are not showing up and we're not being told why". There is no smoking gun in the cites here. It comes across more as rumors and hearsay.
Your'e right. There is no smoking gun. These are literally rumors and hearsay. But the CMs are not being given the info that would contradict the rumors and make them feel safe going to work. They already tried taking their concerns to their managers, to local officials, and to State officials. Now they're talking to the press. Hopefully, further investigation occurs.

Disney has told you how they are managing the response - as it impacts the customers.
Right. And here we're hearing from CMs that Disney may not be managing the response in the way they've told me they are.

Disney isn't drawing people from around the world right now... its just as 'non-essential' as you going to your neighborhood restaurant, or winery. Disney is not alone here - look at the news in any beach resort town from the summer.
Nobody is saying that Disney is alone. But while both are non-essential, Disney is different from my neighborhood restaurant in that there are literally thousands of people from different places gathering there. I understand that international travel is still limited, but there are still people from all over the country attending the parks and people from all over the world planning to as soon as restrictions are limited.

But we don't have that data saying it's not - nor is there anything showing Disney to be radically unique here. They are scale and diverse.. but you could walk into any Resort town and see far more greater issues and risks.
Again, it's no about Disney being unique, it's about Disney. Articles about issues and risks in other places would be great fodder for discussion on websites dedicated to discussion about those places.

Again your argument boils down to a curiosity to answer what you think MIGHT be something happening...
I really don't have an argument here, other than wanting to discuss the article with other WDWMagic members who also have read the article. I appreciate you engaging with me on this- that's really all I was after.

But it's much more than just curiosity and wanting to know about the total number of cases in/around Disney properties. People cannot make informed decisions about going to/working at Disney parks if they don't know whether there are more/fewer/the same rates of exposure there than any of the other places we might go.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
But it's much more than just curiosity and wanting to know about the total number of cases in/around Disney properties. People cannot make informed decisions about going to/working at Disney parks if they don't know whether there are more/fewer/the same rates of exposure there than any of the other places we might go.
The problem is no one will ever know the true rate of exposure at WDW, because guests that travel there may have picked it up at a different location completely unrelated to Disney, and even passed it to a CM. And CMs are the same way. They have lives outside of Disney, and may have gotten it from their local market or a restaurant they visited. If Disney released numbers that said that 500 CMs had tested positive, you know darn well that the media would make it look like the pandemic is right there at WDW, even though it is entirely possible that the vast majority probably caught the virus somewhere else. If I were Disney, I would never release those numbers for that very reason.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
So first, many people have reported that they feel safer at WDW than they do at their local grocery store, even with the local populace wearing masks. Second, I was speaking about the guests, not other CMs. While true that guests will not have as much contact as other CMs, the probability still isn't zero for transmission. Just much lower.

The other item is that I thought Disney was testing their CMs at the local facility located right on property, maybe not daily, but hopefully on a timely basis to catch people that are positive.

Anyway, the point is moot if businesses are not required to report numbers, as we all know that they won't unless they are required to by law. And then it would only apply in the state that passed that law, so if California says they have to report, that doesn't apply to their CMs at WDW.
I'm glad that guests "feel" safer when going to the reopened parks. But that feeling doesn't matter much if they're being unnecessarily exposed to the virus, does it?

I don't know anything about Disney doing testing on property. The article in The Daily Beast only mentioned that some CMs who took tests did so at their own expense.

The point is not moot if the law doesn't currently require businesses to disclose total numbers. The law and/or Disney's policies may need to be changed. The only way we can know whether changes are needed is to see how they play out in the real world. This article may help us identify areas that need further investigation in order to see the effects of current laws and policies in real life.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
The problem is no one will ever know the true rate of exposure at WDW, because guests that travel there may have picked it up at a different location completely unrelated to Disney, and even passed it to a CM. And CMs are the same way. They have lives outside of Disney, and may have gotten it from their local market or a restaurant they visited. If Disney released numbers that said that 500 CMs had tested positive, you know darn well that the media would make it look like the pandemic is right there at WDW, even though it is entirely possible that the vast majority probably caught the virus somewhere else. If I were Disney, I would never release those numbers for that very reason.
Right. And this is exactly why lots of people were concerned that as a non-essential vacation destination that attracts loads of self-centered (rightfully so- these are people on an expensive vacation!) people, Disney may be opening prematurely.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Nobody is saying that Disney is alone. But while both are non-essential, Disney is different from my neighborhood restaurant in that there are literally thousands of people from different places gathering there. I understand that international travel is still limited, but there are still people from all over the country attending the parks and people from all over the world planning to as soon as restrictions are limited. [...]

Again, it's no about Disney being unique, it's about Disney. Articles about issues and risks in other places would be great fodder for discussion on websites dedicated to discussion about those places.

But you did try to point them out as unique... "But it's also a bit unique in that the parks are non-essential vacation destinations that draw people from around the world."... citing a factor that is basically non-existent right now. It's not 'limited' - it's dead! Your regional resorts like Beach towns are far greater problems as they draw in people from hundreds of miles around and nearby states.

Disney is pulling people from all over the country... but at a small scale under super strict behaviors. Goto a Atlantic beach resort and you have people coming from dozens of states, at much greater numbers, under far more disconnected and irregular rules and constraints. And follow any of those and you'll see the struggles over what it means to track the heat map, sources, and consequences because of the wide variety in reporting standards, timeframes, etc.

Point being... chasing a 'total CM cases at Disney" number doesn't really address the real concerns. It's one number... one that is easy for people to clamor for as it's simplistic.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
I think everyone has their own definition of what is considered "good". Just speaking personally, but I want the truth and only the truth. So, I would prefer the bullet points.

To each their own though, I'm glad that you like it.
I'm not sure I like the article. I'm very interested to see what, if anything, comes of the claims these CMs are making. I do hope that by escalating the concerns to the media, and the media publishing articles like this, someone will look into them. I also hope any CMs out there with similar experience might come forward (not to the public, but to their employer and maybe to health officials).

I want the truth, too. But I'm pretty sure there's more to the truth than just facts. Wouldn't you agree? This is why a free press is so important. And why it's vital that we all learn to read news critically and correctly.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
Right. And this is exactly why lots of people were concerned that as a non-essential vacation destination that attracts loads of self-centered (rightfully so- these are people on an expensive vacation!) people, Disney may be opening prematurely.
If you don't feel safe going there, then by all means, don't go. Lots of us feel differently, as we will be there shortly for our vacation. Self-centered? Way to lump all of us together. :banghead: It seems to me that you're making the argument that just because you don't want to go, that none of us should want to go, and the place shouldn't even be open.

Oh, and as far as being an expensive vacation. We're DVC members, so pay nothing for our resort this trip (dues are paid once a year in January), we have APs which are covered by only one trip out of the 3 we usually make, so no cost for this upcoming trip for any park tickets. Our flights were heavily discounted to only $79 each way. Our main expense while we are there will be for food & wine. Hardly expensive, but that's ok, just lump all of us self-centered people together.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
But you did try to point them out as unique... "But it's also a bit unique in that the parks are non-essential vacation destinations that draw people from around the world."... citing a factor that is basically non-existent right now. It's not 'limited' - it's dead! Your regional resorts like Beach towns are far greater problems as they draw in people from hundreds of miles around and nearby states.

Disney is pulling people from all over the country... but at a small scale under super strict behaviors. Goto a Atlantic beach resort and you have people coming from dozens of states, at much greater numbers, under far more disconnected and irregular rules and constraints. And follow any of those and you'll see the struggles over what it means to track the heat map, sources, and consequences because of the wide variety in reporting standards, timeframes, etc.

Point being... chasing a 'total CM cases at Disney" number doesn't really address the real concerns. It's one number... one that is easy for people to clamor for as it's simplistic.
Right. "A bit," in this case, means "somewhat" or "slightly." In some ways, Disney is a business, like all other businesses. But in some ways, it is different. We don't treat all businesses the same- things like size, location, income, and management structure all factor in. So it's the things that make Disney unique that, in my opinion, warrant a higher expectation of transparency about the total number of cases on property.

This is a Disney fan discussion board, so that's why I haven't been talking about beaches or other destinations. I actually think it's the "destination" part (rather than the "business" part) of Disney's operations that warrant extra transparency.

Total number of cases on property is one number that might help people make more informed decisions. It's not everything, but it's not nothing.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
Total number of cases on property is one number that might help people make more informed decisions. It's not everything, but it's not nothing.
But it is nothing, as you cannot (nor can anyone else) prove that a person or CM got infected at WDW. You can't. So again, if Disney says so many hundreds of CMs, out of the thousands working there tested positive, the media would have a field day blaming Disney, when the probable answer is that most of them caught it from somewhere else not related to Disney at all. Not sure why you don't understand why they won't release the numbers, or are you just looking to shut down the parks?
 

ParkerLoLs

Well-Known Member
I still say that Disney is safe. It's all the travel obstacles to leap over that are concerning. If I lived down the street, I'd feel very comfortable in the parks. But I still won't get on a plane. Granted, I wear goggles on the subway, so don't mind me.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
If you don't feel safe going there, then by all means, don't go. Lots of us feel differently, as we will be there shortly for our vacation. Self-centered? Way to lump all of us together. :banghead: It seems to me that you're making the argument that just because you don't want to go, that none of us should want to go, and the place shouldn't even be open.

Oh, and as far as being an expensive vacation. We're DVC members, so pay nothing for our resort this trip (dues are paid once a year in January), we have APs which are covered by only one trip out of the 3 we usually make, so no cost for this upcoming trip for any park tickets. Our flights were heavily discounted to only $79 each way. Our main expense while we are there will be for food & wine. Hardly expensive, but that's ok, just lump all of us self-centered people together.
How would I know if I would feel safe going if I don't know how many cases are going in/coming out? That's why so much discussion on these boards have been around the efficacy of masks and distancing and lockdown measures–because we're all trying to gauge what the risks are, weigh those risks, and then make informed decisions.

I didn't say that all of anyone is self-centered, only that an expensive Disney vacation during a global pandemic seems likely to bring out the me-first attitude in guests. You're free to disagree, but there are literally thousands of posts in the COVID threads here to support my conclusion.

BTW, I really do want to go to Disney World!
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
I still say that Disney is safe. It's all the travel obstacles to leap over that are concerning. If I lived down the street, I'd feel very comfortable in the parks. But I still won't get on a plane. Granted, I wear goggles on the subway, so don't mind me.
I've been in those NYC subways. Got to get used to the sights and smells of the NYC subway system.
 

ParkerLoLs

Well-Known Member
I've been in those NYC subways. Got to get used to the sights and smells of the NYC subway system.

Sigh, I miss them so. But there's no social distancing on the train lately, mask usage is ok but has dwindled. And there are more than a few people chattering loudly, sneezing, coughing. So, I wear my goggles because it makes me feel... well, I do it for me.

ADDED: I've taken the train just thrice (I'll say it twice), just THRICE since March 18. It's not a comfortable experience whatsoever.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
But it is nothing, as you cannot (nor can anyone else) prove that a person or CM got infected at WDW. You can't. So again, if Disney says so many hundreds of CMs, out of the thousands working there tested positive, the media would have a field day blaming Disney, when the probable answer is that most of them caught it from somewhere else not related to Disney at all. Not sure why you don't understand why they won't release the numbers, or are you just looking to shut down the parks?
Nobody is trying to prove that a guest or CM got infected at WDW. But we can know if a knowingly-infected person was in close proximity (6ft., 15 consecutive minutes) to others in the parks (especially true of CMs, which is what the article was about).

I completely understand why Disney wouldn't want to release these numbers. But fear of negative PR can lead a big organization to hide things that consumers need to know. I think it would actually be in Disney's best interest to be more transparent about the numbers. I do not want to see the parks shut down.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
Nobody is trying to prove that a guest or CM got infected at WDW. But we can know if a knowingly-infected person was in close proximity (6ft., 15 consecutive minutes) to others in the parks (especially true of CMs, which is what the article was about).

I completely understand why Disney wouldn't want to release these numbers. But fear of negative PR can lead a big organization to hide things that consumers need to know. I think it would actually be in Disney's best interest to be more transparent about the numbers. I do not want to see the parks shut down.
You don't understand how the media works then. If Disney reports any cases at all, then the media will blow it so out of whack that everyone will believe that every single person that visits WDW will get COVID. If you don't believe that, then I'm sorry, but you are being very naive.

There was a story a while back from the news media that stated "Bars in Florida were forced to shutdown due to COVID-19 cases". From that headline, people would assume they meant every single bar in Florida and that some authority forced the closure. The truth was that it was 3 bars in Jacksonville, and all 3 closed voluntarily to get their employees tested at their expense, and to do a full cleaning of the bars. After which, they reopened. What do you think the news media, not too mention the social media nutcases, would do if Disney reported hundreds of CMs with COVID???

All you can do is understand that Disney is doing everything it can to make everyone's vacation as safe as possible while there at WDW. I mean, according to insiders, even though the parks have been open for almost 2 months, Disney has not raised the number of park reservations for people that are allowed to attend. They are doing their best, and if you don't think that, then don't go.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
You don't understand how the media works then. If Disney reports any cases at all, then the media will blow it so out of whack that everyone will believe that every single person that visits WDW will get COVID. If you don't believe that, then I'm sorry, but you are being very naive.
I think I have a pretty good handle on how the media works. If the numbers are high (lots of people exposed, lots of people testing positive) there would surely be exaggeration in the media (especially social media). But if the numbers are low, what do you think the response would be?

Either way, is it your opinion that Disney should not report any information about the parks or other aspects of their business that might make them look bad?

There was a story a while back from the news media that stated "Bars in Florida were forced to shutdown due to COVID-19 cases". From that headline, people would assume they meant every single bar in Florida and that some authority forced the closure. The truth was that it was 3 bars in Jacksonville, and all 3 closed voluntarily to get their employees tested at their expense, and to do a full cleaning of the bars. After which, they reopened. What do you think the news media, not too mention the social media nutcases, would do if Disney reported hundreds of CMs with COVID???
This is why it's so important to read news articles beyond the headlines. And to discuss them rationally on message boards like this. I'm sure there would be negative PR if the numbers are high.

All you can do is understand that Disney is doing everything it can to make everyone's vacation as safe as possible while there at WDW. I mean, according to insiders, even though the parks have been open for almost 2 months, Disney has not raised the number of park reservations for people that are allowed to attend. They are doing their best, and if you don't think that, then don't go.
According to the article, some CMs are claiming that Disney is not, in fact, doing everything they can to make everyone's vacation as safe as possible. I'd welcome further investigation and more transparency.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
I think I have a pretty good handle on how the media works. If the numbers are high (lots of people exposed, lots of people testing positive) there would surely be exaggeration in the media (especially social media). But if the numbers are low, what do you think the response would be?
Actually, there are already a lot of people saying that the media is and has been exaggerating in order to get viewers and clicks. That's all the alleged news media is about these days. It isn't about fairly reporting the news anymore, and hasn't been for a long time.

Oh just so you know my stance. I absolutely believe that this pandemic is real. My DW and I only go out for essential travel, and I'm fortunate that I can work full time from home. But we need a vacation, and WDW is so much safer than any other place to travel right now, so we will go.

Either way, is it your opinion that Disney should not report any information about the parks or other aspects of their business that might make them look bad?
No, that is not my opinion. If Disney has a safety problem in the parks, then that should and will get reported. People are injured on rides and even a few deaths, and those are reported, as they should be. But reporting something that may or may not have happened at WDW, does NOT need to be reported. Yes, if you or anyone else can PROVE that a person was infected with COVID at WDW, then that can absolutely be reported. But it has to be proven that someone got it there. That's the big difference.

This is why it's so important to read news articles beyond the headlines. And to discuss them rationally on message boards like this. I'm sure there would be negative PR if the numbers are high.
We can read the entire article, but in many cases, it's still full of half truths, inuendo, and straight out lies that can't be contradicted that are still the problem with today's media.

According to the article, some CMs are claiming that Disney is not, in fact, doing everything they can to make everyone's vacation as safe as possible. I'd welcome further investigation and more transparency.
Yes, so these CMs have access to proof that Disney isn't doing something right, or do they just "think" that? So you would welcome further investigation? Why didn't they do further investigation before publishing the article - maybe with some proof of what was being alleged? Again, that is a lot of my problem with the news media nowadays. They publish a damning article about something with no proof whatsoever, and then add a blistering headline so that they pretty much guarantee that people will click on the link, and then poof, they get revenue for the ads that are on their website. It's all about the greenbacks - and not about the truth.
 
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