Covid Vaccine Updates and General Discussion About Vaccines

[davis1978]

I'm not sure it would be as easy as that. I know students can easily get out of getting vaccinated by telling the school they can't for religious reasons. Or at least they could when I was in school. So I can WDW being wary of implementing a rule like this and then having people claim they're being discriminated against for religious reasons.
I don't know a whole lot about the laws when it comes to vaccines though, so maybe someone more knowledgeable about whether this would be allowed could chime in,

Well, to be honest, they should be excluded as well.

If I couldn’t eat a certain type of food for religious reasons and a restaurant only served that type of food, no one would expect the restaurant to change their entire menu to cater to me, I would need to find a different restaurant.

This pandemic is so much bigger than people with their own individual beliefs that for the good of the masses, those people that are willing to participate in something to protect their fellow human (getting the vaccine) should be rewarded. The rest, for personal, religious or other reasons who don’t want to get it will have to wait until the numbers of Covid drop substantially after the rest of us get the vaccine before they get to enjoy a theme park.

 

[Shouldigo12]

Well, to be honest, they should be excluded as well.

If I couldn’t eat a certain type of food for religious reasons and a restaurant only served that type of food, no one would expect the restaurant to change their entire menu to cater to me, I would need to find a different restaurant.

This pandemic is so much bigger than people with their own individual beliefs that for the good of the masses, those people that are willing to participate in something to protect their fellow human (getting the vaccine) should be rewarded. The rest, for personal, religious or other reasons who don’t want to get it will have to wait until the numbers of Covid drop substantially after the rest of us get the vaccine before they get to enjoy a theme park.

I agree people should realize this is bigger than themselves. Trust me, I work at a grocery store and I'm sick to death of people putting my coworkers and I at risk because they cant handle a strip of cloth on their face for thirty minutes. But that doesn't change discrimination laws. Like I said, I'm not an expert in this, so there may actually be no legal worries for Disney in this department. It would be an ironic sort of punishment for any anti-vaxxers who clamored for everything to reopen had to stay home until herd immunity was reached though.
(For clarity's sake, I understand if some people are concerned about the safety of any vaccines approved for emergency use and who want to wait a bit to get them. That last bit was strictly towards people who both want to ignore all safety rules and return to normal, and also don't want to get a vaccine).

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm not sure it would be as easy as that. I know students can easily get out of getting vaccinated by telling the school they can't for religious reasons. Or at least they could when I was in school. So I can WDW being wary of implementing a rule like this and then having people claim they're being discriminated against for religious reasons.
I don't know a whole lot about the laws when it comes to vaccines though, so maybe someone more knowledgeable about whether this would be allowed could chime in,

Public school is something that is guaranteed available to all citizens (and it’s legally required for a kid under a certain age to be educated)so people may get out of a vaccine requirement on the basis of religion there, but WDW is a private business. They have the right to set safety protocols and if people don’t want to follow they have the option to not go. I’m not saying they will do this or need to do it, but that if they don’t it most likely won’t be due to legal challenges. I think it all depends on the timing and how long it takes for a return to normal. For WDW they need to be free of Covid restrictions to expand capacity and start the return to business as normal. If they see that being 6 months or a year away I could see them considering this option. If it is more like a few additional months once the vaccine is readily available then I think they will ride it out.

 

[Shouldigo12]

Public school is something that is guaranteed available to all citizens (and it’s legally required for a kid under a certain age to be educated)so people may get out of a vaccine requirement on the basis of religion there, but WDW is a private business. They have the right to set safety protocols and if people don’t want to follow they have the option to not go. I’m not saying they will do this or need to do it, but that if they don’t it most likely won’t be due to legal challenges. I think it all depends on the timing and how long it takes for a return to normal. For WDW they need to be free of Covid restrictions to expand capacity and start the return to business as normal. If they see that being 6 months or a year away I could see them considering this option. If it is more like a few additional months once the vaccine is readily available then I think they will ride it out.

And this is why I made to sure to mention I'm no expert. I figured school being required might play a part in why students can still come even if they're not vaccinated. Thanks for the information!

 

[GoofGoof]

No, I don't like the restrictions, but I will not be tested or show that I had the vaccine. I know I will get alot of flack for my answers,but I have not been sick nor has my family since this so call virus started. We did not quarantine, we went on with our daily routine and life. To those of you who will give me the ,"well you didn't have anyone sick or die from it, sorry and condolences to you all"
But we are living our life as close to normal as before this virus. If asked or need be to get in stores or other areas ,I do wear a mask, but as far 24/7 wearing one ,no stinking way.

You kinda lost me at “so called virus”. Is there some question on whether Covid is a virus?

If Disney chose to implement this plan you would obviously be free to chose not to go. Nobody has to go to Disney World. I think a decision like this would be made by Disney to increase their business but also to protect their workers. People need to work, they need to earn a living, but an employer also needs to provide a safe working environment. There may come a point where it’s still not safe to remove Covid restrictions for their parks unless they can confirm the people visiting and working there are most likely virus free. That could possibly be achieved by showing proof of vaccination. It’s not going to be 100%, but so far both vaccine candidates that released prelim results have shown to be 95% effective. Pretty good odds. They could also choose to keep masks and other Covid restrictions in place longer, until the cases come way down, but that‘s a lot of potential lost business and a lot of workers not getting back to work. It all depends on the timimg and how many people resist the vaccine.

 

[Think Tink]

No, I don't like the restrictions, but I will not be tested or show that I had the vaccine. I know I will get alot of flack for my answers,but I have not been sick nor has my family since this so call virus started. We did not quarantine, we went on with our daily routine and life. To those of you who will give me the ,"well you didn't have anyone sick or die from it, sorry and condolences to you all"
But we are living our life as close to normal as before this virus. If asked or need be to get in stores or other areas ,I do wear a mask, but as far 24/7 wearing one ,no stinking way.

“So called virus” tells us all we need to know.
Must be nice to effectively say “since it hasn’t affected me, who cares”.

 

[GoofGoof]

We all hope that vaccination ensures non-transmission.

However, it may not be true.

I'm not trying to be a Grinchy. My point is only that we need to be prudent until we have the data. Even if I get the vaccine, I will wear a mask to protect others until I know that it is unlikely that I can harm them; especially the high-risk

From the Lancet Journal below. I may be misunderstanding, but I think it calls for prudence.
"However, the impact of these COVID-19 vaccines on infection and thus transmission is not being assessed. Even if vaccines were able to confer protection from disease, they might not reduce transmission similarly."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31976-0/fulltext

We don’t know for sure. There has been some research done that points to viral load being a factor on spread. That all infected people aren’t equally contagious. That’s why we see in one case a person test positive and his wife and kids living in the same house (24/7 these days) never get sick and in another case a person attends a party for a few hours and turns out to be a super spreader infecting dozens of people. My hope is that the viral load for people who got the vaccine but are still carrying the virus would be so low (if any) that they wouldn’t be very effective carriers. You are correct that we don’t know for sure. If enough people get the vaccine it may not matter long term as there will be so few people left to infect.

 

[Gringrinngghost]

No, I don't like the restrictions, but I will not be tested or show that I had the vaccine. I know I will get alot of flack for my answers,but I have not been sick nor has my family since this so call virus started. We did not quarantine, we went on with our daily routine and life. To those of you who will give me the ,"well you didn't have anyone sick or die from it, sorry and condolences to you all"
But we are living our life as close to normal as before this virus. If asked or need be to get in stores or other areas ,I do wear a mask, but as far 24/7 wearing one ,no stinking way.

It must be nice to be like a neutron star... but hey you do you. Must be nice to be so blissfully unaware all while not even have an iota of knowing if you were actively shedding the virus, especially as there is a chance to be asymptomatic. Here's the magical thing, if people did know how to wear a mask and showed this thing call personal responsibility instead of being bellends and didn't believe everything that a newsnetwork in legal filings have said isn't even trust worthy, then cases would be much lower but what do people care...

And yes, I am drawing parallels here, between you and this so called responsible public like the governor of South Dakota.

I'll catch you in line for Guest Services...

 

[Gringrinngghost]

We don’t know for sure. There has been some research done that points to viral load being a factor on spread. That all infected people aren’t equally contagious. That’s why we see in one case a person test positive and his wife and kids living in the same house (24/7 these days) never get sick and in another case a person attends a party for a few hours and turns out to be a super spreader infecting dozens of people. My hope is that the viral load for people who got the vaccine but are still carrying the virus would be so low (if any) that they wouldn’t be very effective carriers. You are correct that we don’t know for sure. If enough people get the vaccine it may not matter long term as there will be so few people left to infect.

With all the masks as well, its highly possible that with many who have worn masks have built up immunity via microdosing, so its possible the newer cases can be much less severe. At least in more populous areas.

 

[GoofGoof]

With all the masks as well, its highly possible that with many who have worn masks have built up immunity via microdosing, so its possible the newer cases can be much less severe. At least in more populous areas.

Let’s hope so, although the hospitalizations are really rising. There was a theory this summer that the spike in cases was just young people out partying but it wasn’t leading to hospitalizations or deaths so no big deal (not my theory, just one I’ve heard people throw out there), but that doesn‘t seem to be holding up.

 

[lazyboy97o]

this so call virus started

So called virus? So it's actually a bacteria? Maybe a fungus? Miasma?

 

[Heppenheimer]

I'm not a medical professional, however, here is my understanding. Current Stage 3 trials are measuring Efficacy (do vaccinated people get symptoms) and safety (are there adverse effects?). These trials are on thousands of people. Great news. However, the studies are not designed to measure if is possible for vaccinated people to transfer Covid to others. Vaccination may protect you but we don't know if a vaccinated person can still transfer Covid. So, we won't know about "herd immunity" until new studies are published. Masks should remain mandatory until we have answered the "safety of others" question.

The kind of studies that can answer that key question take a very long time. You need a huge cohort of vaccinated subjects and they need to live near a research center that can handle live viral cultures. Which limits you only a handful of locations in the US.

 

[Disney Experience]

I am not sure how much local case numbers would enter into this decision since so many people come from other parts of the country.

Valid point. I was originally thinking that the theme park industry is such a large part of the community that the local rate my be indicative of the covid transmission risk in park, but the crossover of infection rates between in park and local community is likely not conclusive. It would be good though if there was an objective variable that they could use to determine risk vs benefit. There is no way to mitigate all risk, some risk mitigation should be left to the individual, but when should a corporation decide to let the customer choose to wear a mask or not.

 

[Disney Experience]

The kind of studies that can answer that key question take a very long time. You need a huge cohort of vaccinated subjects and they need to live near a research center that can handle live viral cultures. Which limits you only a handful of locations in the US.

I agree. Though a study where you actually try to infect people that are vaccinated and see how long they emit viable virus would work much more quickly. The risk vs benefit of a study like that may not be there. Most likely they will just use real world empirical evidence. As more people are vaccinated can you tell if rate of transmission goes down beyond what could be accounted for by the number of those vaccinated.

 

[seascape]

WDW and DL should require proof of a vaccination for admittance to one of their parks. The people who refuse to take a vaccination should not put the rest of us at risk.

 

[Disney Experience]

I'm not sure it would be as easy as that. I know students can easily get out of getting vaccinated by telling the school they can't for religious reasons. Or at least they could when I was in school. So I can WDW being wary of implementing a rule like this and then having people claim they're being discriminated against for religious reasons.
I don't know a whole lot about the laws when it comes to vaccines though, so maybe someone more knowledgeable about whether this would be allowed could chime in,

But those students would have to have claimed exemption. So at least they had to do a little effort to be excluded from the requirement, and with it acknowledge the risk they were taking of getting the disease. The risk then is on those unvaccinated, the risk is low for those vaccinated.
Measles outbreak that started in Disneyland some time ago, those who depended on herd immunity and were unvaccinated were then vulnerable. Shame it happened, but better to be vaccinated. Disney had no obligation, in my opinion, to certify everyone had chosen to take the vaccinations.

When the likelihood in the general population of catching covid, and/or the risk of serious complications is low enough, and the profit upside is high enough I am sure Disney will relax or eliminate the rules.

 

[Heppenheimer]

I agree. Though a study where you actually try to infect people that are vaccinated and see how long they emit viable virus would work much more quickly. The risk vs benefit of a study like that may not be there. Most likely they will just use real world empirical evidence. As more people are vaccinated can you tell if rate of transmission goes down beyond what could be accounted for by the number of those vaccinated.

Any experiment where you deliberately infect people has almost no chnace of passing an institutional review board, even with willing, fully vaccinated volunteers.

The best you can do is find previously vaccinated subjects (via contact tracing) who may have been exposed, and take viral cultures. If the cultures grow anything, you can then estimate the viral burden versus levels that are known to result in contagious spread. It is possible to do these kind of studies, but you need a huge number of subjects to draw reasonable conclusions.

 

[GoofGoof]

Valid point. I was originally thinking that the theme park industry is such a large part of the community that the local rate my be indicative of the covid transmission risk in park, but the crossover of infection rates between in park and local community is likely not conclusive. It would be good though if there was an objective variable that they could use to determine risk vs benefit. There is no way to mitigate all risk, some risk mitigation should be left to the individual, but when should a corporation decide to let the customer choose to wear a mask or not.

A corporation has to provide a safe work environment for their employees so until the time when cases are so low that the risk of infection is remote guests will have to wear masks. Remember the mask prevents you from infecting others. A work around would be requiring people to be vaccinated to get in which would also keep the chance of infection remote even if overall cases aren’t low enough.

 

[Disney Experience]

Any experiment where you deliberately infect people has almost no chnace of passing an institutional review board, even with willing, fully vaccinated volunteers.

The best you can do is find previously vaccinated subjects (via contact tracing) who may have been exposed, and take viral cultures. If the cultures grow anything, you can then estimate the viral burden versus levels that are known to result in contagious spread. It is possible to do these kind of studies, but you need a huge number of subjects to draw reasonable conclusions.

Now Pfizer did do an animal study (Because of that probability) and part of the results were
" Immunization with BNT162b2 reduced viral infection with no viral RNA detected in the lower respiratory tract of the immunized animals, while in most non-immunized (saline) animals, there was evidence of viral RNA."
So hopefully this means retransmission of virus from a Pfizer vaccinated subject is not likely.

Oh more results from the study: the effective rate is now gone from 90% to 95%. I joked with my wife this morning....it is a race, she had Moderna vaccine and their first look shows at least 94.5% effective, now Pfizer has past/matched Moderna's results. Of course both results are good for all of us. Emergency use request by Pfizer to FDA is just days away too.

 

[Disney Experience]

A corporation has to provide a safe work environment for their employees so until the time when cases are so low that the risk of infection is remote guests will have to wear masks. Remember the mask prevents you from infecting others. A work around would be requiring people to be vaccinated to get in which would also keep the chance of infection remote even if overall cases aren’t low enough.

Theme park employees may be behind first responders and those with comorbidities, but they do interact with a lot of people. I know the research site was interested in theme park workers in central Florida. Hopefully many of the employees will get vaccinated once they can.

Even vaccinated, as I am, if someone with a large viral load coughed into my open mouth as I breathed in, I would expect that I would show symptoms until my immune system won the race with the virus. The Phase 3 study shows that most vaccinated people have very few symptomatic covid cases. I personally am not worried about being maskless. I think, but do not know, that I am unlikely to be a carrier of covid for any length of time. But I agree that the level of vaccination will grow and the empirical results of that will lead to relaxed rules. I wear a mask when near people even though I think it is unneeded, I do not wear one when alone.