Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[LaughingGravy]

It’s true that speed alone may scare some people, but if they can’t formulate intelligent reasons for their fear, we may not be able to wait for them. The impact of this virus is too devastating. At this point, I’m starting to think that employer mandates and vaccine passports may be necessary - we can’t cater to people who have no reason for avoiding the vaccine other than “I want to wait for years” with no intelligent reason for waiting.

Cars used to be made by hand, taking much longer. Technology of the assembly line made the cost come down. The vaccine development CRISPR technology is like that, an assembly line for development of vaccines. Henry Ford's assembly line didn't just happen. People made the machinery to make the process easier once the idea happened.
Robotic welders on an assembly line come to mind, similar to the vaccine tech enabled us to be where we are vs waiting years.
We are very lucky to be in this time and place vs. 5-10 years to develop multiple effective vaccines.

 

[Chi84]

Give me the Novavax vaccine, and the conversation is over.

No conversation ever started. A conversation implies a discussion in which information and ideas are exchanged. If one side of the discussion is nothing more than "V1.0," (which I interpret as you won't take a new vaccine solely because it's new), then it's no more possible to have a discussion than it is with a toddler who won't take a bath because "no, mama."

 

[DonniePeverley]

Give me the Novavax vaccine, and the conversation is over.

What happened to that vaccine?

 

[Lilofan]

Give me the Novavax vaccine, and the conversation is over.

There was a lot of hype on Novavax. The stock was selling at a low of $5 per share for several months in late 2019, early 2020 then peaked at $331 per share in Feb 2021. Whoever bought and accumulated many shares at the low price and sold in Feb 2021 is a happy camper.

 

[Heppenheimer]

You are correct.


The mRNA and J&J vaccines are (briefly) teaching your body to make (harmless) spike proteins that your body is then going to fight. This concept in and of itself gives me pause. I don't believe the six-week standard for vaccine adverse reactions is enough to build trust in this particular case. It's a promising start, no doubt, and the VAERS reports should continue to be researched.

The Novavax vaccine is built on standard, "tried and true" vaccine technologies. This is one I could trust out of the gate.

The spike protein gets gobbled up by macrophages almost as soon as the target cells release it, because it lacks the signature that allows the immune system to recognize "self". The macrophage then breaks it down into large fragments to present to the immature lymphocytes. Once it finds a lymphocyte that makes a reciprocal antibody to the spike protein, it gets further degraded into its constituent amino acid building blocks, and its remnants are now effectively indistinguishable amongst the normal amino acid soup of the cell cytoplasm and insterstitial fluid.

By what conceivable mechanism could a protein that exists in the body for no more than a few hours to at most a day or two somehow trigger an adverse event months to years later? Selecting a self-reacting lymphocyte (ie, autoimmune) is always a slight risk, but this shows up within weeks- hence, the standard 3 month observation period.

If you still want to wait, then that's fine, you have that choice. But the scientific consensus is in regarding the safety and efficacy of the mRNA vaccines. Don't be surprised if your hesitancy starts to cause restrictions, since more and more of society seems to be moving toward vaccine mandates.

 

[Touchdown]

What happened to that vaccine?

Waiting for EUA from the FDA. Also, what’s funny is that is also newer type of vaccine, it works by inserting proteins into your sub cu and a bunch of immunoaccelent chemicals to supercharge a immune reaction in your body. The technology in J&J is older by nearly 100 years.

*It appears to be a very effective vaccine but it’s two shots and is not as affective in studies compared to mRNA. I suspect it’s been put on the back burner because it doesn’t bring anything new to the table in the US, and much like AZ was simply too late to gain a foothold here. It appears this vaccine will be the new canard thrown by the antivaxxers once the mRNA vaccines get new approval.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Yes, something could happen. It could be the body gets good at making the spike proteins and just keeps doing it, even after the instructions have dissolved. Or, it makes so many it overwhelms the immune system. I don't know all of the combinations and permutations of what could happen when you introduce a radical new concept into your body, but I know I'd need time to see what they are or aren't before I trusted it. Because of the novelty of the approach, that trust will take time.

This reply show me that you have no idea how cells make proteins.

 

[Heppenheimer]

This is not a radical new concept being introduced to your body. Your body is doing it right now. If your cells could somehow memorize mRNA then you would have a disorder right now and would already be spontaneously producing random proteins right now. You’ve had 56 years to see that your body isn’t spontaneously making proteins.

To be fair, there are diseases of unregulated protein production- multiple myeloma, amyloidosis, Waldenstrom's gammaglubulinemia, and a few others. But these are caused by defects in the regulatory genes at the DNA level.

 

[Heppenheimer]

No conversation ever started. A conversation implies a discussion in which information and ideas are exchanged. If one side of the discussion is nothing more than "V1.0," (which I interpret as you won't take a new vaccine solely because it's new), then it's no more possible to have a discussion than it is with a toddler who won't take a bath because "no, mama."

Monty Python's Argument Clinic sketch comes to mind.

 

[King Panda 77]

Monty Python's Argument Clinic sketch comes to mind.

No it doesn't

 

[Heppenheimer]

Waiting for EUA from the FDA. Also, what’s funny is that is also newer type of vaccine, it works by inserting proteins into your sub cu and a bunch of immunoaccelent chemicals to supercharge a immune reaction in your body. The technology in J&J is older by nearly 100 years.

*It appears to be a very effective vaccine but it’s two shots and is not affective in studies compared to mRNA. I suspect it’s been put on the back burner because it doesn’t bring anything new to the table in the US, and much like AZ was simply too late to gain a foothold here. It appears this vaccine will be the new canard thrown by the antivaxxers once the mRNA vaccines get new approval.

There is one potential advantage for Novovax. In addition to using the spike protein, it also uses the much more seldom discussed M protein, which I don't believe has shown nearly as much variance as the spike. So conceivably, if the antibodies induced by the mRNA vaccines lose some degree of their effectiveness against a new spike protein variant, some additional antibodies against the M protien could add an extra boost.

 

[Deanieb59]

Not if another variant gets created..........
Vaccine is really the only way out of this crap fest.
Create a passport system, most will get the vaccine.

Take care

The smaller businesses that did survive would probably never survive another lock-down. I really hope that never happens. I don't see most people complying this time around. Fear of the unknown played a factor in getting people to do as told or asked. Won't be the same if they ever felt the need for more serious control like a lock down.

 

[Timmay]

It’s funny how so many who claim the vaccines are under studied will also push gobbling up supplements that all too often rely on being unstudied so they can make nebulous claims.

You have data that shows this?

 

[correcaminos]

There's a world of difference between study and real world application. V1.0 of anything should be viewed skeptically until trust can be proven. That trust may take weeks, months, or years of analyzing results.

This is a way simplifed and wrong take on science. A very dangerous one too. Trials are to find what is safe. People like me went through this so you won't get shot that is version 1.0. What you are getting is tested and true.

You are correct.


The mRNA and J&J vaccines are (briefly) teaching your body to make (harmless) spike proteins that your body is then going to fight. This concept in and of itself gives me pause. I don't believe the six-week standard for vaccine adverse reactions is enough to build trust in this particular case. It's a promising start, no doubt, and the VAERS reports should continue to be researched.

The Novavax vaccine is built on standard, "tried and true" vaccine technologies. This is one I could trust out of the gate.

This isn't religion. Your "beliefs" don't matter in science. Also J&J is pretty "normal" for a vaccine. However you need to use real facts, not beliefs with something like this.

 

[correcaminos]

To be fair the speedy development of the COVID19 vaccines has been truly mind boggling. Historically 5 to 10 years lapse before a vaccine is developed / approved and deployed for use. That is a substantial amount of time that elapses while many people suffer and die waiting for the approved vaccine. It is amazing effective vaccines were developed, available and being dispensed in the brief span of time since COVID19 first appeared. Speed also scares many people. There are many fence sitters out there that truly believe they are being prudent in waiting and seeing before partaking of the vaccines. Many pro-vaccination folks pushing to force or scare people into vaccinating are actually being counter productive and reinforcing the reasons for the Wait and See attitude and getting the no-vax folks to dig in their heels. Everyone does not adapt nor accept change at the same pace or way.

Except this wasn't really speedy when one looks at the history. MERS and SARS ran out of people sick to test on. The only thing speedy was how fast we got results because the pandemic is that bad. Feeding into fears without backing up real facts is not helpful. Instead of feeding the fears being kind and giving the real facts will help for many. I've flipped more than a few with actual facts and such IRL. Most of these fears can be reasoned with. Yes pushing is bad, but letting fears go uncorrected is bad too.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Except this wasn't really speedy when one looks at the history. MERS and SARS ran out of people sick to test on. The only thing speedy was how fast we got results because the pandemic is that bad. Feeding into fears without backing up real facts is not helpful. Instead of feeding the fears being kind and giving the real facts will help for many. I've flipped more than a few with actual facts and such IRL. Most of these fears can be reasoned with. Yes pushing is bad, but letting fears go uncorrected is bad too.

Thankyou. Most of the holdouts don't appear to be true antivaxxers. They have concerns, which unfortunately, are usually maliciously seeded through social media by actual antivaxxers. The best way forward is to ask them what specific concerns they have, then address them. It does require constantly staying on top of both the current literature and the latest antivaxx poppycock, which I admit, can sometimes be hard even for people who do this professionally (that lipid nanoparticles in the ovaries thing from yesterday was a new one for me). Unless you are really dealing with a malicious actor, "meeting people where they are" seems to be the best approach. Many people just have a mental hump they need to get over. Unfortunately, though, with the delta variant now gaining steam, we might not have enough time for people to get over their own hump. That's why I support a combination of vaccine passports and mandates.

 

[correcaminos]

Thankyou. Most of the holdouts don't appear to be true antivaxxers. They have concerns, which unfortunately, are usually maliciously seeded through social media by actual antivaxxers. The best way forward is to ask them what specific concerns they have, then address them. It does require constantly staying on top of both the current literature and the latest antivaxx poppycock, which I admit, can sometimes be hard even for people who do this professionally (that lipid nanoparticles in the ovaries thing from yesterday was a new one for me). Unless you are really dealing with a malicious actor, "meeting people where they are" seems to be the best approach. Many people just have a mental hump they need to get over. Unfortunately, though, with the delta variant now gaining steam, we might not have enough time for people to get over their own hump. That's why I support a combination of vaccine passports and mandates.

Meeting people where they are is really important. So many have had so many different fears that each individual has to be addressed one by one. I'm no medical person, but there is a weird trust that people have when they realize that a person they know IRL went through vaccines long before others, so I use it to help others.


I might be blunt sometimes here, but if there is a real fear, I'll gently chip away to try to help. Like a parent sometimes forces kids to do things, I find gentle nudges, a little hand holding, and a hug (literally or figuratively) goes a long way.

On the internet though, I do assume some are trolling. IRL, I'm rather gentle even when others are stubborn or mean.

 

[Lady Liberty]

Never said you weren't vaccinated so do not put words in my mouth. Thanks.

If you don't understand why regurgitating anti-vax rhetoric is hurtful, I don't know what to say. There are many who vaccinated who still share comments that spread distrust. Right now we need to come together and not post negatives as you did when medical professionals told you otherwise.

For the record, you shared info and someone asked for proof. Just share it and don't put the burden of proof on them. That's also a tactic that never helps.

Again if you don't understand why it is bad,I'm not sure I can help you. Just know it is and think twice before relaying some information that causes distrust.

I never said you did, you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Also I never regurgitated anti-vaxers, I personally don't know any of them and I'm not as on top of their rhetoric as you appear to be. Medical professionals are not above making making mistakes. Just look at Fouchi who has change his recommendations time and time again. This could be attributed to the fact that this was a new virus and nobody, not even the experts knew what to expect, they were learning just like the rest of us.


At this point I don't see the point in continuing this conversation with you, you have your opinions and I have mine and apparently the two do not match. I hope you and your family stay well. I hope we see an end to this sometime soon. Unfortunately the virus will be with us for the foreseeable future but hopefully we will get it under control if enough people see the light and get vaccinated.

 

[Timmay]

Thankyou. Most of the holdouts don't appear to be true antivaxxers. They have concerns, which unfortunately, are usually maliciously seeded through social media by actual antivaxxers. The best way forward is to ask them what specific concerns they have, then address them. It does require constantly staying on top of both the current literature and the latest antivaxx poppycock, which I admit, can sometimes be hard even for people who do this professionally (that lipid nanoparticles in the ovaries thing from yesterday was a new one for me). Unless you are really dealing with a malicious actor, "meeting people where they are" seems to be the best approach. Many people just have a mental hump they need to get over. Unfortunately, though, with the delta variant now gaining steam, we might not have enough time for people to get over their own hump. That's why I support a combination of vaccine passports and mandates.

For me this is an issue of the antiquated bureaucratic slog that is the FDA…especially given the evidence of the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines. I don’t mean to start page after page of debate on this, but come on!

 

[Lady Liberty]

Definitely a communication problem. You're not an anti-vaxxer and you're vaccinated, but both of those are anti-vaxxer talking points.

They're also both half truths and twisting of facts without context trying to create meaning that's the reverse of what we know.


No google search will turn this up. At best you'll find opinion pieces saying that someone else, not the opinion piece author, fits that scenario. But drilling down to what that is based on will find that the opinion piece is itself the same twisting of statement and removal of context to create a different message than was actually being communicated.

Really, I guess since I'm NOT an anti-vaxxer I don't know this. Not sure what exactly you are trying to say in your second sentence, not good communications here.

I don't agree with you on the google search, I did one and I found what I was looking for. Try again if your so inclined but I think you already know who the naysayers were.

It has been shown that the lipid nanoparticles that encase the mRNA do concentrate in the ovaries which was not envisioned in the original trial plan.

What is the outcome of this finding? Noone knows at this point.

Exactly, we still don't have all the answers. The answers will come in time but at this point we are still learning.

Just because you are vaccinated doesn’t mean you can’t be influenced by anti-vaxxers and spread their bunk.

I guess that could be true if I knew any anti-vaxxers but I don't. The only anti-vaxxers I know about are the ones from early on who have done a 180 since that time.