Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Touchdown

Well-Known Member
The same people who would die of Covid, will still of Covid now. The only difference is we are over stopping the world to try to save the weak. I don't mean that in a vicious way but many of the population are weak body wise. The slightest thing will kill them.

Whatever, sure we stopped the surge that would have overwhelmed hospitals saving huge amounts of life. Deaths by suicide, violence, drug OD's, alcohol abuse etc. those don't matter. The fact that all those numbers went up hugely has no correlation to the Covid lock downs. Sure it doesn't. Sure this won't have effects on society going forward for years to come.....

My parents are in their 80's and you can ask them. The Covid vaccine doesn't do much for the over 80 crowd, they still die quickly from Covid or for that matter anything. My parents were so pro vaccine and everything else because they thought that would solve everything. Their friends started dying after 3 Covid shots and have now given up on everything. They have gone back to living a normal life. They are out doing a cruise right now and they are traveling the world. They simply don't care about Covid an more. Their choices are, don't come out in public and drop dead of old age or go live life to it's fullest and drop dead of old age.

Who are you actually saving and from what????
Watch what happens in China and the death rate there over the next few months before you decide Covid vaccine does nothing for octogenarians. You and your parents do not seem to grasp the concept between risk reduction and elimination of risk, the vaccine does the latter not the former. Please take a look at the graph:

C20FA207-2DF4-41B2-9195-A5B9DA517A40.jpeg


2021 saw the emergence of Delta which was far deadlier then the Wuhan strain, and Omicron that was as deadly as the Wuhan strain and far more infectious but yet the worst spike of deaths in the United States was during the alpha wave. Ever wonder why? The answer is the vaccine. That said, you parents should be cruising right now, Covid cases are extremely low outside of Asia.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member

As scientists who study how viruses evolve, we are often asked about the future of the coronavirus. Will it go away? Get worse? Fade into the background of our lives? Become seasonal like the flu?

Here’s what we know: The virus’s Omicron variant was significantly more infectious and more resistant to vaccines than the original strain that first emerged in Wuhan, China. There’s no reason, at least biologically, that the virus won’t continue to evolve. The coronavirus variants that have emerged thus far sample only a fraction of the genetic space that is most likely available for evolutionary exploration.

Many coronavirus vaccines train the immune system to recognize a particular section of the original virus: the 201 amino acids that allow the virus to latch onto human cells.

Only two of those amino acids were mutated in the Delta variant. The mutations weren’t enough to make vaccines ineffective.

Fifteen of the 201 amino acids that vaccines target were mutated in Omicron.The mutations helped Omicron evade the immune system and infect people who had been vaccinated or previously infected.

But the virus can mutate much further than the handful of changes seen in Omicron. Each amino acid can mutate 19 different ways.

Scientists have already documented more than 400 other mutations in the amino acids that vaccines target.

By our count, there are nearly 2,000 other ways that the 201 targeted amino acids could mutate and still be able to attach to human cells.


A virus like SARS-CoV-2 faces one overriding pressure: to become better at spreading. Viruses that cause more infections will be more successful. The virus can do this by becoming more contagious and by skirting around the immune system. This coronavirus has undergone several adaptations that make it better at spreading in humans.


But although many scientists, including us, expected SARS-CoV-2 would be under evolutionary pressure to transmit better, it’s been remarkable just how well the virus has responded to that pressure. Recent variants like Omicron and Delta are several times more transmissible than the strain that first spread around the globe in early 2020. That’s a huge increase, and makes SARS-CoV-2 more contagious than many other human respiratory viruses. These big jumps in contagiousness have played a major role in driving the pandemic so far.


Chart showing properties of certain SARS-CoV-2 variants. Along the X axis, reductions in antibody effectiveness for variants is shown. Along the Y axis are figures on how much more contagious the variant is compared to the original SARS-CoV-2.

1648470300065.png




How much more transmissible SARS-CoV-2 can become is an open question, but there are limits. Even evolution is constrained: a cheetah can’t evolve to be infinitely fast, and SARS-CoV-2 won’t become infinitely transmissible.


Other viruses have reached plateaus in their ability to spread. Some respiratory viruses such as measles are more contagious than today’s SARS-CoV-2. Others, such as influenza, are generally not as contagious as SARS-CoV-2. We don’t know when this coronavirus will hit its transmissibility plateau, but it will happen eventually.


Viruses such as this one can also spread better by “escaping” immunity to prior variants. Early in the pandemic, few people had immunity to SARS-CoV-2. But now much of the world has antibodies from vaccination or prior infection. Because these antibodies can block infection, variants with mutations that skirt around them have an increasing advantage.


The importance of immune escape has become apparent with Omicron. Prior variants like Delta were only modestly able to sidestep antibodies, but Omicron has many mutations that reduce the ability of antibodies to recognize it. This, coupled with how contagious Omicron is, has enabled it to cause a huge wave of infections.


The fact that the virus developed the ability to infect people who had been vaccinated or previously infected shouldn’t have been a surprise, but how it happened with Omicron certainly was. Evolution often proceeds stepwise, with new successful variants descended from recent successful ones. That’s why six months ago many scientists, including us, thought the next variant would descend from Delta, which was dominant at the time. But evolution defied our expectations, and we got Omicron, which has a huge number of mutations and isn’t descended from Delta. It’s not known exactly how the virus made the big evolutionary jump that led to Omicron, although many scientists (including us) suspect the variant may have emerged from someone who couldn’t fight off the virus well, allowing it time to mutate.


It’s impossible to say whether future variants will have more big Omicron-like jumps or more typical stepwise changes, but we are confident SARS-CoV-2 will continue to evolve to escape immunity.


While transmissibility of viruses does plateau at a certain point, other human viruses that escape immunity keep doing so. The influenza vaccine has been updated annually for decades to chase viral evolution, and some influenza viruses show no sign of slowing down. Immune escape is an endless evolutionary arms race, because the immune system can always make new antibodies and the virus has a vast set of mutations to explore in response. For instance, Omicron has just a tiny fraction of the many mutations that have been observed in SARS-CoV-2 or related bat viruses, which are in turn just a small fraction of what lab experiments suggest the virus could potentially explore.


Taking all this together, we expect SARS-CoV-2 will continue to cause new epidemics, but they will increasingly be driven by the ability to skirt around the immune system. In this sense, the future may look something like the seasonal flu, where new variants cause waves of cases each year. If this happens, which we expect it will, vaccines may need to be updated regularly similar to the flu vaccines unless we develop broader variant-proof vaccines.


And of course, how much all this matters for public health depends on how sick the virus makes us. That is the hardest prediction to make, because evolution selects for viruses that spread well, and whether that makes disease severity go up or down is mostly a matter of luck. But we do know that immunity reduces disease severity even when it doesn’t fully block infections and spread, and immunity gained from vaccination and prior infections has helped blunt the impact of the Omicron wave in many countries. Updated or improved vaccines and other measures that slow transmission remain our best strategies for handling an uncertain evolutionary future.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
But the CDC changed metrics for a reason. The idea was that in the early days of the pandemic, when there were no vaccines and no effective therapeutics, it made sense to judge risk based solely on transmission levels in a community. But now that folks can get vaccinated if they choose and we have decent therapeutics as well, people have the tools to protect themselves from severe outcomes. So "how likely are you to be exposed to Covid" is no longer considered the appropriate metric. It's "how often are people in a community having serious problems because of Covid." And I think that makes sense.
Yes, from a Public Health and policy perspective, it makes sense.

That "Public Health" and "Personal Health" have different goals and concerns has been an something that's clearly come out of all of this.

There's lots of examples of this. Something has to be really bad on a personal level before it's restricted. There's all kinds of stuff that bad for "Personal Health" but doesn't matter from "Public Health" perspective and isn't restricted at all.

Just look at food labeling and what ingredients are actually restricted. If it was "Personal Health" focused, lots of stuff wouldn't be allowed. However, with a "Public Health" perspective, if it doesn't kill you (or make you very sick), you're on your own. The label requirements at least let people make their own decision.

I can see where managing overall public health the first map works to know the system isn't in danger of collapse. But, on a personal level, I still prefer the "how many infected and infectious people am I likely to run into" metric.

They're both trending in the right direction, the second just moves slower.

Since, if possible, I would prefer not to test out the breakthrough rate, reduced impacts, or provide a chance at virus mutation. I would like to sit all those out within reasonable actions. Meaning the lower the transmission, the less actions I need to worry about. Even if the hospital has room for me either way. My level of "reasonable" may not be the same as everyone else, that's fine. I'm probably in the middle to more conservative side. Certainly, we're doing more and more activities that include "greater risk" as cases get lower and lower.
 

Insoc

New Member
Hi! What do you think are the chances that this week, the White House or the CDC are going to LIFT the pre departure testings for vaccinated persons? Thanks!
 

Joesixtoe

Well-Known Member
Watch what happens in China and the death rate there over the next few months before you decide Covid vaccine does nothing for octogenarians. You and your parents do not seem to grasp the concept between risk reduction and elimination of risk, the vaccine does the latter not the former. Please take a look at the graph:

View attachment 629035

2021 saw the emergence of Delta which was far deadlier then the Wuhan strain, and Omicron that was as deadly as the Wuhan strain and far more infectious but yet the worst spike of deaths in the United States was during the alpha wave. Ever wonder why? The answer is the vaccine. That said, you parents should be cruising right now, Covid cases are extremely low outside of Asia.
Like many ive been tracking this since day one and I've personally never heard of Omicron being as deadly as the Wuhan variation, in fact it was lauded as being almost a good thing so people can get some immunity to covid. Delta was always known as being a little less harmful but more transmissable and so on. Also look at UK and Isreals history and right now most deaths occur in the vaccinated by a very wide margin. But truth is at war these days(or always have been). I can show a chart and someone else can show another chart countering it. So the only thing I can go by is this, I've come across maybe a handful or so people who've never been vaccinated and gotten it twice, I've come across many who's been vaccinated and still get it, in the ED no less. Vaccines help for 3-6 months however I believe boosters are probably more like 2-3 months effective. Problem is, is there any real long term immunity acquired from the vaccine? Time will tell, but so far I'm seeing a no.
 

GuyFawkes

Active Member


Might want to look around at what the CEO's of these vaccine companies have to say not politicians.


Everyone in the advanced world will need a yearly shot forever. If you are the people making the vaccine that's great business isn't it?
 

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
Thanks, let that sink in for a few folks.
Let this sink in. The annual campaign to get people to take flu shots was due to people foregoing the flu shots. The manufacturers of flu shots were not reaping the profits they had projected so the strong advertising campaigns. The public became skeptical of the flu shots after big pharma admitted the effectiveness of the shots was inconsistent. The way things are evolving with the COVID vaccine's a similar pattern is taking shape.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
But I have never gotten the flu shot? I'm in my 30s....crazy how that works.
That's the thing. I'm pretty sure I never got a flu shot until I was at least 35 and then it was mostly because I could get a $10 gift card from Publix to get it. Mostly I just don't like being sick so I figure that maybe it will keep me from getting sick not that I'm concerned particularly about the flu.

For me, the biggest motivation for getting the COVID shots + booster was that a lot of people I know who got COVID lost their sense of taste and/or smell for weeks or months and I don't want to experience that symptom.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
That's the thing. I'm pretty sure I never got a flu shot until I was at least 35 and then it was mostly because I could get a $10 gift card from Publix to get it. Mostly I just don't like being sick so I figure that maybe it will keep me from getting sick not that I'm concerned particularly about the flu.

For me, the biggest motivation for getting the COVID shots + booster was that a lot of people I know who got COVID lost their sense of taste and/or smell for weeks or months and I don't want to experience that symptom.

I got my two orginal shots....saw no need for the boosters since the increased protection seemed very limited for most. (According to the data) for seniors? Sure makes sense.

Yeah I might do it for 10 bucks. Just never have
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
For me, the biggest motivation for getting the COVID shots + booster was that a lot of people I know who got COVID lost their sense of taste and/or smell for weeks or months and I don't want to experience that symptom.
My best friend was boostered and still lost his sense of taste and smell two months ago from a breakthrough (most likely Omicron) that was similar in symptoms to a bad two-week cold. His senses returned in three weeks. His hacking cough took four weeks to go away (an aftereffect of damage to lung lining, most likely cilia damage -- which is also what happens with cold-induced bronchitis).

Who know how much worse it could have been (or not) if he wasn't fully vaccinated. Unlike colds and flu viruses which have been studied for many decades, there's only two years of investigation into this literally novel virus that keeps having significant mutations.

I'm not as anxious to get a second booster, but, if it's available for the next round of flu shots, I'll take it. If a new booster comes out that boosts the previous formulations and also includes an updated formulation that targets newer variants... I'll jump on that.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
I got my two orginal shots....saw no need for the boosters since the increased protection seemed very limited for most. (According to the data) for seniors? Sure makes sense.
Are you sure about that comparison?

If you don't compare "Unvaccinated to 2 doses" along with "2 doses to 3 doses", but just compare "2 doses to 3 doses" on it's own?

Those graphs that show all 3 lines are very misleading about the difference "2 doses to 3 doses". The difference between "Unvaccinated to 2 doses" is so huge that it clearly dwarfs the difference between "2 doses to 3 doses". It also messes with the Y axis on those charts to fit the scale in.

The advantage of "2 doses to 3 doses" is clearly not as large as the advantage "Unvaccinated to 2 doses", but that's not the same as limited or incidental. Isn't is something like a 3X or 5X improvement in protection? An improvement from something in the 30%-50% effectiveness to something around 70% effective? Even just picking the smallest, a 3X or 20% bump in effectiveness, that's a big difference.

If you told me how to improve my chances at getting on ROTR by 3X, that would be a HUGE help. :cool:
 

DisneyDebRob

Well-Known Member
Are you sure about that comparison?

If you don't compare "Unvaccinated to 2 doses" along with "2 doses to 3 doses", but just compare "2 doses to 3 doses" on it's own?

Those graphs that show all 3 lines are very misleading about the difference "2 doses to 3 doses". The difference between "Unvaccinated to 2 doses" is so huge that it clearly dwarfs the difference between "2 doses to 3 doses". It also messes with the Y axis on those charts to fit the scale in.

The advantage of "2 doses to 3 doses" is clearly not as large as the advantage "Unvaccinated to 2 doses", but that's not the same as limited or incidental. Isn't is something like a 3X or 5X improvement in protection? An improvement from something in the 30%-50% effectiveness to something around 70% effective? Even just picking the smallest, a 3X or 20% bump in effectiveness, that's a big difference.

If you told me how to improve my chances at getting on ROTR by 3X, that would be a HUGE help. :cool:
After reading your post 3 times.. I finally understand it! Lol Agree with you. Only on second cup of coffee.🙂
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
I don’t honestly even understand why anti-vax covid deniers even post here. Except to stir the pot.

I've had my flu shot every year since I was 16 and I am now 45. I started when my mom was dying of cancer. I was told to do it by doctors to protect her. That stuck. I don’t vaccinate for myself. I vaccinate for others. Same reason why I did covid. Did the trial for others and not myself. Always will be that way until I'm old and gray
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
Let this sink in. The annual campaign to get people to take flu shots was due to people foregoing the flu shots. The manufacturers of flu shots were not reaping the profits they had projected so the strong advertising campaigns. The public became skeptical of the flu shots after big pharma admitted the effectiveness of the shots was inconsistent. The way things are evolving with the COVID vaccine's a similar pattern is taking shape.
Some skeptics I know had a bad case of the flu. Did they get their shots? Nope. The misinformation on big pharma / annual flu shots is a good one.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
My best friend was boostered and still lost his sense of taste and smell two months ago from a breakthrough (most likely Omicron) that was similar in symptoms to a bad two-week cold. His senses returned in three weeks. His hacking cough took four weeks to go away (an aftereffect of damage to lung lining, most likely cilia damage -- which is also what happens with cold-induced bronchitis).

Who know how much worse it could have been (or not) if he wasn't fully vaccinated. Unlike colds and flu viruses which have been studied for many decades, there's only two years of investigation into this literally novel virus that keeps having significant mutations.

I'm not as anxious to get a second booster, but, if it's available for the next round of flu shots, I'll take it. If a new booster comes out that boosts the previous formulations and also includes an updated formulation that targets newer variants... I'll jump on that.
At this point, I’d only get a 2nd booster of the original formulation if required. We are traveling abroad this summer, so if Europe requires another booster, we will. But these requirements seem to be disappearing.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Like many ive been tracking this since day one and I've personally never heard of Omicron being as deadly as the Wuhan variation, in fact it was lauded as being almost a good thing so people can get some immunity to covid. Delta was always known as being a little less harmful but more transmissable and so on. Also look at UK and Isreals history and right now most deaths occur in the vaccinated by a very wide margin. But truth is at war these days(or always have been). I can show a chart and someone else can show another chart countering it. So the only thing I can go by is this, I've come across maybe a handful or so people who've never been vaccinated and gotten it twice, I've come across many who's been vaccinated and still get it, in the ED no less. Vaccines help for 3-6 months however I believe boosters are probably more like 2-3 months effective. Problem is, is there any real long term immunity acquired from the vaccine? Time will tell, but so far I'm seeing a no.

The protection against infection does wane over the course of a few months, but the protection against serious disease, hospitalization and death lasts longer.
 
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