Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[LittleBuford]

I apologize I must have missed the question. It's not the easiest question to answer on a forum as it can be a forever argument. I personally when shopping for anything I take a long time to carefully choose what I want. So personally speaking I wanted to wait and see how people would react from the shot. Long term studies. However I've had covid, and natural immunity has been shown to be a great defense and one recognized in many countries. So essentially a virus with a very low death rate in my age group, no long term studies(I get the blow back from this), a country that doesn't advocate for better health/immune system building nor natural immunity (when it did at first, until vaccines rolled out) but just push vaccines and say it's the only way... then push for more vaccines. Everything that's been said has been altered. I'm reminded of Vader to Lando in Empire Strikes Back. I've altered the deal, pray I don't alter it any further. This is mainly my reasoning. I also have religious reasons. But I'll save that.

Thank you for your answer.

With regard to long-term side effects, numerous posts in this forum from medically qualified individuals (@Heppenheimer in particular) have discussed the scientific impossibility of the vaccine staying in your body and causing any harm down the road. Have you found any evidence to make you doubt this?

I’m not sure when you had COVID, but your natural immunity will only last so long. It’s not worth taking the risk.

I can’t speak directly to your religious objections, but I would think that protecting your health and others’ is a morally fitting choice. I speak as a fellow person of faith.

I truly wish you well and hope you come to realise the importance of the vaccines to getting us out of this mess.

 

[LittleBuford]

@Joesixtoe, forgive me if I’m mistaken, but I believe you’re a Christian. This may interest you and others of a similar faith background who have religious concerns about the vaccine:

​

It should be part of our thankfulness as Christians to recognize that God so planned the world that even those who are not aware of the creation mandate or who deny God’s existence have, by virtue of his having breathed into Adam the breath of life, the capacity and sometimes the motivation to explore the hierarchically structured realities and stable causal processes that he has created. Virtually any human being, simply by being made in God’s image, may serve as one of God’s providential instruments to discover some feature of his creation that conveys the health and healing that, ultimately, comes only as a gift from him. The COVID vaccine is, I think, one of those gifts.​

The Bible and COVID Vaccines

Does the Bible offer us any insight into whether we should take the COVID vaccine? I think it does when we think through the implications of the early chapters of Genesis.

www.pastortheologians.com

ETA: For those who don’t like or who disagree with such religious perspectives, my own faith background and views don’t align with what I’ve quoted and linked to above, so please don’t shoot the messenger! I’m just trying to reach a fellow poster on his own terms.

 

[Joesixtoe]

Thank you for your answer.

With regard to long-term side effects, numerous posts in this forum from medically qualified individuals (@Heppenheimer in particular) have discussed the scientific impossibility of the vaccine staying in your body and causing any harm down the road. Have you found any evidence to make you doubt this?

I’m not sure when you had COVID, but your natural immunity will only last so long. It’s not worth taking the risk.

I can’t speak directly to your religious objections, but I would think that protecting your health and others’ is a morally fitting choice. I speak as a fellow person of faith.

I truly wish you well and hope you come to realise the importance of the vaccines to getting us out of this mess.

Thank you for the kind response as it does go a long way. I've seen some aspects of vaccine issues interms of health. I don't talk to much on that right now as correlation does not equal causation. Just trying keep an open mind. Religiously speaking there is more to it, as well we disagree with the overall role of vaccines in combating covid. Well I'm off to bed, it's late. Again thanks for the none angry response.

 

[Joesixtoe]

@Joesixtoe, forgive me if I’m mistaken, but I believe you’re a Christian. This may interest you and others of a similar faith background who have religious concerns about the vaccine:

​

It should be part of our thankfulness as Christians to recognize that God so planned the world that even those who are not aware of the creation mandate or who deny God’s existence have, by virtue of his having breathed into Adam the breath of life, the capacity and sometimes the motivation to explore the hierarchically structured realities and stable causal processes that he has created. Virtually any human being, simply by being made in God’s image, may serve as one of God’s providential instruments to discover some feature of his creation that conveys the health and healing that, ultimately, comes only as a gift from him. The COVID vaccine is, I think, one of those gifts.​

The Bible and COVID Vaccines

Does the Bible offer us any insight into whether we should take the COVID vaccine? I think it does when we think through the implications of the early chapters of Genesis.

www.pastortheologians.com

ETA: For those who don’t like or who disagree with such religious perspectives, my own faith background and views don’t align with what I’ve quoted and linked to above, so please don’t shoot the messenger! I’m just trying to reach a fellow poster on his own terms.

I'll read it tomorrow, thanks for the link

 

[Incomudro]

It’s a major point by itself. Crowded hospitals are bad for us all.

I'll argue it's the primary reason we've done anything that we did from the very start.
We didn't do things to "save lives."
We did them to keep the rate of the ill, and dying at one that the system can handle.

 

[Jrb1979]

I get it, but its been pushed far beyond bars. Especially in other countries.

In Ontario Canada it's also for restaurants, concerts, casinos, movie theaters and sporting events. Would you say that's too far? I don't

 

[Jrb1979]

I'll argue it's the primary reason we've done anything that we did from the very start.
We didn't do things to "save lives."
We did them to keep the rate of the ill, and dying at one that the system can handle.

I don't see what the problem with that is. Had they just let things go things would have been a lot worse. I really don't understand the hate for wearing masks and social distancing. People make it like they are hard done by

 

[JoeCamel]

I'll argue it's the primary reason we've done anything that we did from the very start.
We didn't do things to "save lives."
We did them to keep the rate of the ill, and dying at one that the system can handle.

Don't stop with the healthcare system, if it is overwhelmed many more die. It was to "save lives"

 

[Heppenheimer]

Because I see the "we don't know the long term side effects of the vaccines" canard has arisen yet again, it's time again to give the refutation.

The long-lasting effect of vaccination is not from the presence of the vaccine material itself. What is actually injected into your arm within days is either completely excreted or broken down into basic biochemical building blocks that are indistinguishable on a molecular level from the chemical soup that bathes every cell in the body. The COVID vaccines are no different in this regard.

The immunity from vaccines comes from stimulation of a population of lymphocyte stem cells specifically selected to respond to a particular bacteria, bacterial toxin or virus. Anytime you stimulate these cells, either from vaccination or far more likely, natural infection or just as the result of random chance, there is a very low, but real risk that they could cross-react with some component of the human body. This is why autoimmune diseases exist. If this will happen, the reaction will occur relatively soon after the inciting incident (illness or vaccination). Historically with vaccination, these rare reactions occur mostly within days, or at the absolute longest delay, about 6 weeks. If the new B and/or T cells don't cause an autoimmune reaction within this time frame, they never will. Out of an abundance of caution, all vaccine trials, including the current COVID vaccinations, require a 3 month observation period for safety.

We're closing in on over 6 billion people worldwide vaccinated, and some have been vaccinated for longer than a year at this point. The safety of the COVID vaccinations is more than adequately established and has compared very favorably with previous vaccines (one exception, J&J is not a good choice for women of reproductive age due to the clotting issue).

Let me close with making one key distinction. Yes, any approved vaccine has the possibility, albeit very rare, of causing a long-lasting side effect. But the latency for this side effect to manifest always occurs very soon after administration. Someone recovering from Guillan-Barré may certainly suffer from the sequelae of this unfortunate disease for years, particularly if they had a severe case, but the disease begins pretty soon after the inciting event, be it an infection or the much more rare case of vaccine-triggering.

 

[Incomudro]

I don't see what the problem with that is. Had they just let things go things would have been a lot worse. I really don't understand the hate for wearing masks and social distancing. People make it like they are hard done by

I don't have a problem with it.
I do have a problem with much of mask use - as you've seen by my posts - as I believe that much of it is useless.
Functional under some conditions, and with the right mask.
Essentially useless under other conditions.
As for social distancing, depending on conditions - much of that is probably useless too, but I love social distancing.
I'd have preferred that most people stayed 6 feet away from me well before covid reared its head.

 

[Incomudro]

Don't stop with the healthcare system, if it is overwhelmed many more die. It was to "save lives"

I know I bring this up often:
People die of heart disease in the US at a rate of some 650,000 per year.
You don't see a big push to save those lives.
As long as they die at a rate that the system can accommodate, those deaths are considered to be an acceptable fact of life.
If when covid first broke out, the CDC and WHO determined that the infection rate and death rate would be something the health care systems could handle, recommendations would have been little, and not strict.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Because I see the "we don't know the long term side effects of the vaccines" canard has arisen yet again, it's time again to give the refutation.

The long-lasting effect of vaccination is not from the presence of the vaccine material itself. What is actually injected into your arm within days is either completely excreted or broken down into basic biochemical building blocks that are indistinguishable on a molecular level from the chemical soup that bathes every cell in the body. The COVID vaccines are no different in this regard.

The immunity from vaccines comes from stimulation of a population of lymphocyte stem cells specifically selected to respond to a particular bacteria, bacterial toxin or virus. Anytime you stimulate these cells, either from vaccination or far more likely, natural infection or just as the result of random chance, there is a very low, but real risk that they could cross-react with some component of the human body. This is why autoimmune diseases exist. If this will happen, the reaction will occur relatively soon after the inciting incident (illness or vaccination). Historically with vaccination, these rare reactions occur mostly within days, or at the absolute longest delay, about 6 weeks. If the new B and/or T cells don't cause an autoimmune reaction within this time frame, they never will. Out of an abundance of caution, all vaccine trials, including the current COVID vaccinations, require a 3 month observation period for safety.

We're closing in on over 6 billion people worldwide vaccinated, and some have been vaccinated for longer than a year at this point. The safety of the COVID vaccinations is more than adequately established and has compared very favorably with previous vaccines (one exception, J&J is not a good choice for women of reproductive age due to the clotting issue).

Let me close with making one key distinction. Yes, any approved vaccine has the possibility, albeit very rare, of causing a long-lasting side effect. But the latency for this side effect to manifest always occurs very soon after administration. Someone recovering from Guillan-Barré may certainly suffer from the sequelae of this unfortunate disease for years, particularly if they had a severe case, but the disease begins pretty soon after the inciting event, be it an infection or the much more rare case of vaccine-triggering.

Thank you for continuing to spell this out so clearly.

 

[Jrb1979]

I know I bring this up often:
People die of heart disease in the US at a rate of some 650,000 per year.
You don't see a big push to save those lives.
As long as they die at a rate that the system can accommodate, those deaths are considered to be an acceptable fact of life.
If when covid first broke out, the CDC and WHO determined that the infection rate and death rate would be something the health care systems could handle, recommendations would have been little, and not strict.

Somewhere along the lines the CDC threw their hands up and let it rip. IMO some mitigations should have been in place til hospitals stop being over run.

 

[lazyboy97o]

immune system building nor natural immunity (when it did at first, until vaccines rolled out) but just push vaccines and say it's the only way

The way you build your immune system is vaccines. That’s what they do and that’s the way to do it. Anything else is either more dangerous or just bunk.

I know I bring this up often:
People die of heart disease in the US at a rate of some 650,000 per year.
You don't see a big push to save those lives.
As long as they die at a rate that the system can accommodate, those deaths are considered to be an acceptable fact of life.
If when covid first broke out, the CDC and WHO determined that the infection rate and death rate would be something the health care systems could handle, recommendations would have been little, and not strict.

All sorts of things are done to reduce heart disease, going all the way down to elementary school with things like Jump Rope for Heart. Heart disease is also a group of diseases, not a single communicable disease.

 

[DisneyCane]

Based on the early FL data it seems that the hospitalization rate for Omicron is about 2% of cases. For the Delta wave it was about 9% if you ignore the plateau where clearly the cases were really higher.

That suggests that Omicron has around a 78% lower incidence of severe disease then Delta. If the death rate keeps the same ratio, the Omicron variant could very well have a lower fatality rate than that other disease I won't mention that's been around for hundreds of years or longer.

 

[Heppenheimer]

I know I bring this up often:
People die of heart disease in the US at a rate of some 650,000 per year.
You don't see a big push to save those lives.
As long as they die at a rate that the system can accommodate, those deaths are considered to be an acceptable fact of life.
If when covid first broke out, the CDC and WHO determined that the infection rate and death rate would be something the health care systems could handle, recommendations would have been little, and not strict.

The American Heart Association, the medical profession and the entire medical triage system that is designed to get people to the cath lab within 90 minutes of the start of an MI would beg to differ on your assertion. This system didn't just happen because we decided it would be a good idea, it happened through massive expenditures of resources, and a huge public-provate cooperative effort. That we still lose people to MIs every year is not for want of every bit of effort to try to prevent many of them.

And also, a not insignificant number of those deaths lumped under the broad category of "heart disease" will occur in hospice settings, where comfort is the goal over survival.

We don't just say, oh well, a significant number of people will die of, let's say, pulmonary embolisms anyway, no point in try to prevent those deaths.

 

[correcaminos]

Because I see the "we don't know the long term side effects of the vaccines" canard has arisen yet again, it's time again to give the refutation.

The long-lasting effect of vaccination is not from the presence of the vaccine material itself. What is actually injected into your arm within days is either completely excreted or broken down into basic biochemical building blocks that are indistinguishable on a molecular level from the chemical soup that bathes every cell in the body. The COVID vaccines are no different in this regard.

The immunity from vaccines comes from stimulation of a population of lymphocyte stem cells specifically selected to respond to a particular bacteria, bacterial toxin or virus. Anytime you stimulate these cells, either from vaccination or far more likely, natural infection or just as the result of random chance, there is a very low, but real risk that they could cross-react with some component of the human body. This is why autoimmune diseases exist. If this will happen, the reaction will occur relatively soon after the inciting incident (illness or vaccination). Historically with vaccination, these rare reactions occur mostly within days, or at the absolute longest delay, about 6 weeks. If the new B and/or T cells don't cause an autoimmune reaction within this time frame, they never will. Out of an abundance of caution, all vaccine trials, including the current COVID vaccinations, require a 3 month observation period for safety.

We're closing in on over 6 billion people worldwide vaccinated, and some have been vaccinated for longer than a year at this point. The safety of the COVID vaccinations is more than adequately established and has compared very favorably with previous vaccines (one exception, J&J is not a good choice for women of reproductive age due to the clotting issue).

Let me close with making one key distinction. Yes, any approved vaccine has the possibility, albeit very rare, of causing a long-lasting side effect. But the latency for this side effect to manifest always occurs very soon after administration. Someone recovering from Guillan-Barré may certainly suffer from the sequelae of this unfortunate disease for years, particularly if they had a severe case, but the disease begins pretty soon after the inciting event, be it an infection or the much more rare case of vaccine-triggering.

I think we should just quote this one anytime someone asks.

For those wondering dates, the earliest trials were May last year for getting the shots. I was originally scheduled August myself when a power outage caused me to reschedule for Sept. So we definitely have long term people as it is.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I would caution against using such charged words as “segregation” in relation to vaccine passports. To be discriminated against on the basis of your race, nationality, religion, etc. is very different from being kept out of a bar because you refuse to get a free and safe vaccine.

It fits the definition of the word -

“the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart.”

 

[correcaminos]

It fits the definition of the word -

“the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart.”

Please don't go this direction. You left the remainder out

• the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.
  "an official policy of racial segregation

Vaccines are not something people are born with. Makes a big difference to it all. If you cannot see a difference, consider yourself lucky.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Vaccines are not something people are born with. Makes a big difference to it all. If you cannot see a difference, consider yourself lucky.

But some are born with an issue that would prevent them from safely getting a vaccine.