Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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hopemax

Well-Known Member
From an evolutionary biology perspective, why would unvaxxed be the cause of variants? Is it not the vaccinated, as the vaccine imparts a force upon the virus that the virus counter acts?
Uh, no. Inoculations / vaccinations are a pretty new invention, given the length of human existence. So for thousands of years, it is accurate to say that every single human was unvaccinated. Viruses still mutated. Evolutionary biology says that in an environment with high levels of immunity, such as through natural infection, in order to survive, the virus must adapt to invade immunity. Vax / no vax isn't the "force". Immunity, in general, is. So are you against immunity in order to prevent mutation?

Edit to add: @lazyboy97o described the means and opportunity (persistent infection in an unvaccinated host). My post is more about the motive.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
It does seem in South Africa that previous infection from delta or beta doesn’t necessarily give you protection from getting omicron. But it supposedly keeps the case less severe. Or it can be they omicron is less severe in general. Still early.

the other way around that you mentioned, who knows. But if omicron can outcompete delta, it may not matter.

I am not sure if I entirely understand the concept of one variant "outcompeting" another. Unless I am missing something, the only way I can see one variant supplanting another is if a more contagious variant arises that also gives you at least some immunity from the other variants, this is what happened with Delta. So hypothetically, of Omicron didn't give you protection against Delta, you could end up getting both variants at the same time.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
I am not sure if I entirely understand the concept of one variant "outcompeting" another. Unless I am missing something, the only way I can see one variant supplanting another is if a more contagious variant arises that also gives you at least some immunity from the other variants, this is what happened with Delta. So hypothetically, of Omicron didn't give you protection against Delta, you could end up getting both variants at the same time.
It would be omicron being so much more transmissible than delta, that it becomes the vast majority of cases in the US. Like what happened when delta came in and overtook alpha. That’s how I have read it.
Point taken though. Maybe you’re right.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if I entirely understand the concept of one variant "outcompeting" another. Unless I am missing something, the only way I can see one variant supplanting another is if a more contagious variant arises that also gives you at least some immunity from the other variants, this is what happened with Delta. So hypothetically, of Omicron didn't give you protection against Delta, you could end up getting both variants at the same time.
It’s the survival of the fittest docterine in real time. The virus which is able to infect more people will reproduce more while the less fit virus will reproduce less. Over generations that less fit virus will disappear. Viral generations are measured in days so what can take centuries in animals occurs in weeks-months in viruses.
 
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Ayla

Well-Known Member
And kill millions of other people sick with hospital requiring ailments who can’t get the care they need as the health care system gets overrun.

Not a good plan Cotton.
That's already happening in my area. Three patients who were suffering strokes this last week were turned away because the hospital had no capacity to treat them because most of the beds were taken by Covid patients.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
It’s the survival of the fittest docterine in real time. The virus which is able to infect more people will reproduce more while the less fit virus will reproduce less. Over generations that less fit virus will disappear. Viral generations are measured in days so what can take centuries in animals occurs in weeks-months I. Viruses.
This is my understanding as well.

So for those who are now convinced I'm some sort of covid denier or something, please understand that this evolution is promising in that since we cannot vaccinate fast enough thanks to misinformation this is our "way out" and I am hopeful for it.

Just because I point to promising news, doesn't mean I am a maskhole or a vaxhole. I have to wear my mask in public every single place I go. I'm not running free maskless anywhere. While my keloid is hating this again (burned like crazy this morning) I still will not remove in public period.

I honestly am not sure why it is bad to be hopeful about this set of mutations. Travel hasn't changed. This variant is here and circulating whether it's been reported or not and has been likely for a month or more. There is no downside to a masking always in public person who has been triple vaxxed as a part of the trial to help save the world to be hopeful. It changes nothing about what I do in public. Just remember that before one tries to scold me or roll eyes at me. Almost 2 years later I'm taking this as serious as ever.
 

Bob Harlem

Well-Known Member
We don’t know if it’s mild for all, and in fact early reports from SA contradict that (hospitalizations going up, amongst the unvaccinated.). That’s what I’m alluding to.
All indications so far is that It is mild. The predominant symptoms are cough, body pains, headaches and tight chest but no evidence of lung involvement (pneumonia). The loss of taste and smell is not a symptom. Most cases in SA were detected by admissions procedures while going into the hospital for other reasons (76% were incidental and only detected by the policy to test everyone admitted). It's typically mild even in the unvaccinated and often asymptomatic in the vaccinated. Children have fever & cough & discharged in 2 to 3 days, no deaths https://www.statnews.com/2021/12/04/omicron-covid19-south-africa-data/

All sorts of detail on this can be found here: https://www.samrc.ac.za/news/tshwane-district-omicron-variant-patient-profile-early-features
 
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Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
From an evolutionary biology perspective, why would unvaxxed be the cause of variants? Is it not the vaccinated, as the vaccine imparts a force upon the virus that the virus counter acts?

The breakthrough in the vaxxed is transmitted, incubated, and propagates with accelerated efficiency through the unvaxxed to both unvaxxed and vaxxed with less efficiency.

Variants aren’t a response to something like a vaccine, they are typically random mutations.

As a virus reproduces itself a few of the copies will have flaws, normally that flaw causes the virus to simply die, occasionally it survives and starts reproducing, thus creating a new variant.

The more sick people we have, all reproducing millions of the virus within themself, the more likely a variant is to happen.

So long story short, vaccinated people, who are getting sick less often and in shorter intervals, thereby reproducing fewer virus, are much less likely to cause a variant.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
This is my understanding as well.

So for those who are now convinced I'm some sort of covid denier or something, please understand that this evolution is promising in that since we cannot vaccinate fast enough thanks to misinformation this is our "way out" and I am hopeful for it.

Just because I point to promising news, doesn't mean I am a maskhole or a vaxhole. I have to wear my mask in public every single place I go. I'm not running free maskless anywhere. While my keloid is hating this again (burned like crazy this morning) I still will not remove in public period.

I honestly am not sure why it is bad to be hopeful about this set of mutations. Travel hasn't changed. This variant is here and circulating whether it's been reported or not and has been likely for a month or more. There is no downside to a masking always in public person who has been triple vaxxed as a part of the trial to help save the world to be hopeful. It changes nothing about what I do in public. Just remember that before one tries to scold me or roll eyes at me. Almost 2 years later I'm taking this as serious as ever.
That is not my intent or my belief. I am however genuinely worried about your community going into this phase and therefore you. You have said you need to think a certain way to keep your anxiety in check. I do understand that. But to take that extra step to "the severity seems like it's mild" when we only know people who should have a mild case are having mild cases is how I think a lot of misinformation happens even when someone doesn't have nefarious intent. People propagating what might be a false hope out of a personal need, to the point where it reaches general acceptance that "Omicron is inherently (not just mitigated via population immunity) more mild." I will counter that until we have the final score and not the first 5 minutes, of the first quarter. IMO, it's adding fuel to an anxiety-driven fire if it's not accurate. Because that happens to me. If I didn't prep myself in advance about what bad might look like. When the bad stuff happens, it's much worse. Were we really better mentally off when everyone ripped off our masks in May and then Delta happened? When researches were saying Alpha and Delta were more severe?, people were all "Wait!" And it turned out not to be that different, just more transmissible. Now that it's flipped to maybe mild?, it's suddenly acceptable to not wait? This is what I'm pushing back against.

I don't know why it's so bad to assume that inherent severity is the same, not better or worse. Just the same. But the protection granted has helped immensely. Or recognizing that the math is problematic to keep things low enough where healthcare infrastructure is not hit with another surge. It still is hopeful for those who have taken the appropriate steps, but without the added downside of being caught off guard when it's not enough and the numbers climb. As people close to us get sick, to varying degree based on their age, health and immunity status. People who did the right thing by getting vaccinated, boosted, wore their masks, but don't get the non-Covid medical care they need because of others needing Covid care. Is this not a concern in your community? People who might need care for heart attacks, cancer, pulmonary issues, etc. who may be delayed and experience different outcomes because of an overburdened system? Does witnessing those things not have a negative impact on your anxiety? That's why I used the Genie+ analogy; there are some times people need to know when there are still storm clouds working against. If that makes me a bad person, I'm past the point of caring. I've backed off before (although I'm sure it doesn't feel like it :)) figuring reality would reveal the truth soon enough. I have never seen the experts I follow on Twitter, like whose tweets I posted and who are normally very cautious about things like this, be so concerned about the raw math, even as they are less worried about severe outcomes for vaccinated people in general.

Travel hasn't changed, IMO, because no one wants to be the villain and say "No" during Christmas (although Portugal is apparently considering). No one wants to risk the civil unrest. But lack of action /= lack of consequences. They are pushing responsibility onto individuals because they are running low on options. It's not an expression of what needs to be done, it's an expression of how they chose to respond. We'd like to think if something is needed, it gets done, but we should all know better about that at this point.
 

Danissmart

Member
No, not at all. I live in NJ, and our governor put some pretty strict mitigation measures in place early last year but voluntarily lifted every one of them when conditions improved. It's not like we are talking about something like taxes where the government benefits for it, the government doesn't really benefit by forcing you to wear a mask unless you buy into the conspiracy theory that covid is a plot to control every facet of our life to establish a new world order.
Ok
 

ABQ

Well-Known Member
This truth about ECMO machines is there just aren't very many around in general and even if one is available, it's unfortunately considered a last resort treatment.
No paywall on this article.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
You didn’t answer the question that was put to you. Why do you feel they wouldn’t repeal it? Put differently, what would they have to gain from a truly permanent mask mandate?

Why? Because it’ll give the health department permanent power that they’ll interpret to extend far beyond masks.

Power and control, the endless fight.
 
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