LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
But why would health departments want such power? What do they have to gain?
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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion
- Thread starter Parker in NYC
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Vegas Disney Fan
Well-Known Member
Power itself is enough. A certain segment of people crave power over everything else and will do anything to keep it. It’s the same reason politicians spend millions of their own money for a job that pays a couple hundred thousand a year.
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
But you’re just begging the question (in the original and proper sense of the term). Your answer boils down to “They want power because they want power”. That’s no answer at all.
Nubs70
Well-Known Member
If both vaxxed and unvaxxed can contract Covid. Both classes provide an environment in which a virus can replicate with a potential to mutate.
Is it the case that only unvaxxed can produce mutations based on probability?
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
The rate of contraction—and hence mutation—is lower among the vaccinated.
Chi84
Premium Member
“Power is not a means, it is an end. *** The object of power is power.” George Orwell’s 1984. I think this idea could be the concept some people are referring to here. Maybe not.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
You keep presenting a false equivalency. There is an order of magnitude of difference. It is like comparing someone who had a sip of wine with someone who has been drinking hard for hours.
hopemax
Well-Known Member
Since vaccinated are far more likely to have an infection that is mild, it is less likely for a vaccinated person to have a persistent infection leading to more chances for mutation. Is it possible? In an immunocompromised person, such as being speculated about Omicron developing in a person with untreated HIV and a cold virus, then, yes, possible. Probable? You said it was your job to think about possible incidents involving machinery. In your list of possibilities, have you included a plane crashing into one end of the factory and a piece of shrapnel flying into a worker who ends up falling in a way that their arm is caught? How about Chinese paramilitary forces entering the factory and to display they are in charge, they grab someone's extremity and insert it? Does your employer offer safety instructions about what to do in these scenarios? Planes do crash, and hit buildings and I could totally see China doing something in Hong Kong or Taiwanese factories if given the chance.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
Spread increases the probability of variants. Partial population immunity is what drives selective pressure for an escape variant to be favoured. The only means of decreasing this from happening is decreasing spread. Something many countries have long since given up on.
This is the consequence of the good enough crowd.
On the lighter side spread will always be selectively favoured by the virus, not necessarily morbidity. So it is possible Omicron is less harmful.
This is the consequence of the good enough crowd.
On the lighter side spread will always be selectively favoured by the virus, not necessarily morbidity. So it is possible Omicron is less harmful.
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
Why would a public health department, of all entities, want such power?
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
Worried about my community? I'm not sure you know where I live to even make a remark like that. I am concerned for the unvaccinated as we have far too many. As for me? Yeah I call BS on that. I'm triple vaxxed and mask everywhere. Not sure why I'm concerning. Truly felt like you are trying to play into fears here with the majority of your post - which is entirely unhealthyThat is not my intent or my belief. I am however genuinely worried about your community going into this phase and therefore you. You have said you need to think a certain way to keep your anxiety in check. I do understand that. But to take that extra step to "the severity seems like it's mild" when we only know people who should have a mild case are having mild cases is how I think a lot of misinformation happens even when someone doesn't have nefarious intent. People propagating what might be a false hope out of a personal need, to the point where it reaches general acceptance that "Omicron is inherently (not just mitigated via population immunity) more mild." I will counter that until we have the final score and not the first 5 minutes, of the first quarter. IMO, it's adding fuel to an anxiety-driven fire if it's not accurate. Because that happens to me. If I didn't prep myself in advance about what bad might look like. When the bad stuff happens, it's much worse. Were we really better mentally off when everyone ripped off our masks in May and then Delta happened? When researches were saying Alpha and Delta were more severe?, people were all "Wait!" And it turned out not to be that different, just more transmissible. Now that it's flipped to maybe mild?, it's suddenly acceptable to not wait? This is what I'm pushing back against.
I don't know why it's so bad to assume that inherent severity is the same, not better or worse. Just the same. But the protection granted has helped immensely. Or recognizing that the math is problematic to keep things low enough where healthcare infrastructure is not hit with another surge. It still is hopeful for those who have taken the appropriate steps, but without the added downside of being caught off guard when it's not enough and the numbers climb. As people close to us get sick, to varying degree based on their age, health and immunity status. People who did the right thing by getting vaccinated, boosted, wore their masks, but don't get the non-Covid medical care they need because of others needing Covid care. Is this not a concern in your community? People who might need care for heart attacks, cancer, pulmonary issues, etc. who may be delayed and experience different outcomes because of an overburdened system? Does witnessing those things not have a negative impact on your anxiety? That's why I used the Genie+ analogy; there are some times people need to know when there are still storm clouds working against. If that makes me a bad person, I'm past the point of caring. I've backed off before (although I'm sure it doesn't feel like it) figuring reality would reveal the truth soon enough. I have never seen the experts I follow on Twitter, like whose tweets I posted and who are normally very cautious about things like this, be so concerned about the raw math, even as they are less worried about severe outcomes for vaccinated people in general.
Travel hasn't changed, IMO, because no one wants to be the villain and say "No" during Christmas (although Portugal is apparently considering). No one wants to risk the civil unrest. But lack of action /= lack of consequences. They are pushing responsibility onto individuals because they are running low on options. It's not an expression of what needs to be done, it's an expression of how they chose to respond. We'd like to think if something is needed, it gets done, but we should all know better about that at this point.
I'm going to say this kindly. I am not plucking facts. I am not diminishing. I am not spreading misinformation and honestly I really dislike you used that word with me. So with that I honestly won't bother with the rest. Stop painting me as a spreader of lies. To be true, I am not even if you want to see it differently. I welcome good news if it is there and cautiously so far we have better news. Unlike you I will say the truth for the time and be okay if we are wrong.
living waiting for the next shoe to drop is unhealthy for everyone. So don't use my comments about myself against me. You really are unknowing of me and pretending to go on and on like you know me because I use ways to not go crazy? Not okay and please don't try to lecture me again. Put me on ingore please as I find your reply so condescending that I'm sorry I even read it.
Acting like the world is going to die will not do you any good. So why are you harping anyone sharing on possible good news? Honestly that baffles me. The WHO said vaccinate to stop spread. Follow them if you have issues with me. Enjoy your day.
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DisneyFan32
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
No! I don't want a permanent mask mandate forever...I don't want this happen.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
It won't. There is a whole lot of gray with everything and nothing is forever I promise you.
hopemax
Well-Known Member
I would have phrased it the same way for anyone else on this thread. I am worried for all of us, all of our communities. Not from mass death as you assigned to my expectations. It's trauma I'm worried about. Collective trauma. I'm sorry my genuine concern is so upsetting. We have shared a lot of information about ourselves throughout this thread. Were we not supposed to pay attention to what others share about themselves?
Vegas Disney Fan
Well-Known Member
The virus can mutate in anyone, BUT…
Data has shown that unvaccinated people are 6x more likely of getting the virus than vaccinated people. That’s alone causes a 600% increase in the chance that the unvaxxed cause a mutation.
AND… data shows vaccinated people recover faster. So if a sick person is replicating a million virus a day and the vaxxed person is only sick for 2 days vs the unvaxxed for 6 days it’s a massive decrease in possibility one of their virus will have a mutation.
Say you have 100 vaccinated people and 100 unvaccinated and 2 of the vaccinated get sick and 12 of the unvaccinated get sick (6x more likely). At a million replications a day you now have 2 million chances of a mutation among those 100 vaxxed people and 12 million chances among this 100 unvaxxed people per day.
The vaxxed people will recover in about 2 days, so 2 million replications x 2 days is 4 million chances at a mutation. The unvaxxed will recover in about 6 days, so 12 million replication x 6 days is 72 million chances at a mutation.
So although the mutation could happen in anyone it’s 18x more likely to happen in the unvaccinated population.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
Trauma comes in many forms. The anxiety you cherry picked actually has me 100% aware that there are many types of truama.
A few days ago my sibling - who is highly negative and points to many things like you posted the article that I reposted here. It stated from the WHO that vaccination is what we need to do. Curbing travel at this point? People may want it but unless we 100% shut everything down spread is impossible to curb. So following that, I see no point in looking for the bad when there is more good news at this moment. If bad comes, we'll deal but to look for bad when signs are good? Not good for us as a whole.
It is traumatic to one's self to live in constant fear. In constant worry.
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hopemax
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of people think this is no different than the previous pandemics the world has experienced that didn't seem to have lasting impact. Not just the 1918 one, but the 1957 and the 1968 one. So much in health care has changed since then. We didn't have transplants, we didn't have bypass surgery as something completely survivable. ICU care at all, was a result of the Polio pandemic. There are so many ways people died in those pandemics that aren't dying similarly now because we have treatment options. And we take the availability of these things for granted far more than we realize.
People in the US have traditionally been so worried about these options, and lesser procedures being available that people denigrate the Canadian and UK health care systems because people have to wait. Rationed care is not something many Americans say they can handle. We're barreling right into that situation, potentially extending for years past whenever this acute stage ends, due to early retirements and other labor shortages due to what they say is a result of too few, especially those with the power to do anything, caring about their trauma and willingness from society to lighten their load. Everyone says they will just deal... I don't think it will be that easy. The same way people haven't handled unavailability of anything during this. We have a case here in Denver, where a man was experiencing a mental health emergency, known to law enforcement because of previous incidences with this man. He was unable to be taken to the hospital best served to handle his needs because of admitted low staffing. So many hospitals were on divert due to our COVID surge, he ended up at a hospital who admitted they were unequipped to deal with him, so they released him. He was arrested for making threats to 911 and because the jails are operating differently due to COVID surge, and attempts to keep the population lower, he was released on bond. He beat an elderly man to death in a local park that night. And worse, the mental health element and hospital diversions didn't make it into the reporting. They presented it as a bond issue. A reporter wrote about these elements on Twitter.
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DisneyFan32
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
Ugh, I hope the pandemic will ending soon so the masks will be dropping for good.
Vegas Disney Fan
Well-Known Member
We all hope that but we aren’t there yet, it’s best to focus on how far we’ve come though.
Compared to a year and a half ago when we were hiding in our homes and everything was closed worldwide life is pretty good right now. It’s better to focus on all the positive changes that have happened in the last year (vaccines, schools opened, businesses open, Disney open, etc) rather than the few remaining negatives like masks.
DisneyFan32
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
Hopefully by Mid-March 2022 as the masks will be finally be dropped for trains, buses and planes as possible if the cases are low enough.
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