Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Heppenheimer]

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, if you have COVID and end up on a ventilator you are not likely to ever come off of it so I don't know how much this would matter.

I do think that if a hospital is going to run out of room, COVID patients who are vaccinated should be prioritized.

I disagree with you on a lot... but not necessarily here. If and when COVID ever causes what is effectively a mass casualty situation (defined as when the immediate medical demand exceeds the local medical resources ability to meet that demand), those who are unlikely to be saved are placed in the "expectant" category. Meaning, they are kept as comfortable as possible, but not treated with more resource-intensive, curative intent.

I don't know if any region in the US has effectively reached this point yet, but in such a case, because being vaccinated gives a clear survival benefit even in severe illnesses, care could reasonably be triaged to the disadvantage of the unvaccinated. That wouldn't be a moral judgement of who is more "deserving", it would simply be a matter of allocating limited resources where they can have the greatest impact.

I've worked in a MASCAL situation before. It isn't pretty and its something we absolutely want to avoid in all possible scenarios. Hence, why I favor vaccine and mask mandates.

 

[Disney Analyst]

Incredible letter from a doctor here in Canada:

 

[mmascari]

A pair of twins, who grew up together, own a business together split 50/50, each have a spouse and 2 kids of nearly the same ages each need a ventilator. Both will almost certainly die without the ventilator and both will most likely make a full recovery with the ventilator. One is unvaccinated and sick with COVID-19 and the other (vaccinated) was hit by a drunk driver. There is only one ventilator. Who gets it? Somebody will die. Somebody will be denied care. There is no win for everyone. Someone louses a spouse, a sibling loses a sibling, children lose a parent, other children lose an aunt/uncle. This isn’t about just leaving people to die while there is more than enough staff and equipment, this is about lousy decisions where someone will lose. Why is it more compassionate to save the unvaccinated twin?

The Trolley wins.

Always, the Trolley is the only winner.

Side note, Twitter surfaced this post to me recently, from 2015. Its amazingly appropriate for today.

 

[GoofGoof]

Looks like NBA players won't be required to get the vaccine.

Sources: NBA players won't have to get vaccine

The COVID-19 vaccine won't be required for NBA players this season, sources tell ESPN's Baxter Holmes and Adrian Wojnarowski.

www.espn.com

They will have to get weekly tests once the OSHA rules kick in unless the teams just eat the fines which they may be willing to do. The unvaccinated players are subject to a bunch of additional protocols like separate locker areas and not being in the same area of the team plane or eating at the same table as teammates. I think it’s actually a pretty good example of allowing people to remain unvaccinated but their lives are altered in certain ways.

 

[mmascari]

Looks like NBA players won't be required to get the vaccine.

Sources: NBA players won't have to get vaccine

The COVID-19 vaccine won't be required for NBA players this season, sources tell ESPN's Baxter Holmes and Adrian Wojnarowski.

www.espn.com

I suppose this makes it a competitive advantage for teams where all players (and staff) are vaccinated. They're less likely to have a case that results in game impacts.

If I was a coach, I wouldn't want the disadvantage of having to deal with unvaccinated players (or staff).

Any competent front office team management is going to ditch unvaccinated people. How much good does it do a team if a star player causes them to forfeit games.

 

[Andrew C]

They will have to get weekly tests once the OSHA rules kick in unless the teams just eat the fines which they may be willing to do. The unvaccinated players are subject to a bunch of additional protocols like separate locker areas and not being in the same area of the team plane or eating at the same table as teammates. I think it’s actually a pretty good example of allowing people to remain unvaccinated but their lives are altered in certain ways.

I think the NBA execs are cowards if I’m honest. And those protocols you mentioned are not yet final. Their business, their choice I guess.

 

[GoofGoof]

I think the NBA execs are cowards if I’m honest. And those protocols you mentioned are not yet final. Their business, their choice I guess.

I don’t disagree but it’s a league run by the players. It’s interesting to me that 85% of the players are vaccinated but the union still won’t support vaccine mandates. What would the other 15% do? Go play in Europe or China?

 

[Andrew C]

I don’t disagree but it’s a league run by the players. It’s interesting to me that 85% of the players are vaccinated but the union still won’t support vaccine mandates. What would the other 15% do? Go play in Europe or China?

They have had lockouts in the past for less serious matters.

 

[GoofGoof]

I suppose this makes it a competitive advantage for teams where all players (and staff) are vaccinated. They're less likely to have a case that results in game impacts.

If I was a coach, I wouldn't want the disadvantage of having to deal with unvaccinated players (or staff).

Any competent front office team management is going to ditch unvaccinated people. How much good does it do a team if a star player causes them to forfeit games.

So far only NYC and San Fran have required all players to be vaccinated so an unvaccinated player cannot play for those 3 teams unless they want to skip every home game. Somehow the visiting players aren’t required to be vaccinated tp enter those arenas. I guess that’s a league rule. The home team cannot ban the visiting team‘s beat player from playing. If more cities follow that plan, and it’s likely they will, there will be less and less places for unvaccinated players to play. Right now it’s 10% of teams but that could easily reach 30% or more if a handful of major urban centers make arena rules like NY and SF. Cities like LA, Chicago, Philly, DC, Boston, Portland, etc…

 

[Virtual Toad]

Alaska E.R. patients are waiting hours in vehicles as a major hospital rations care.​

Alaska’s largest hospital announced Tuesday that a relentless coronavirus outbreak driven by the highly contagious Delta virus variant has left emergency room patients waiting hours in their vehicles and forced medical teams to ration care.​

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At Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage, the hospital said it was now operating under “crisis standards of care” — procedures put in place to prioritize resources in a way that may leave some patients with substandard care.​

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Alaska, where 60 percent of adults are fully vaccinated, is just one state among many where the Delta variant has run rampant, straining hospitals to their breaking points. Last week, Idaho announced that medical centers in the northern part of its state would move to crisis standards of care. In Alabama, all I.C.U. beds are occupied, as hospitals in Southern states run dangerously low on space in intensive care units.​

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In Mississippi, where 51 percent of adults are fully vaccinated, state officials tried to outsource “I.C.U.-level-care patients” to Kentucky. And in North Dakota, an executive at the state’s largest health care system said it could use as many as 300 additional nurses to help treat Covid-19 patients.​

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In Anchorage, Dr. Kristen Solana Walkinshaw, a senior leader at the Providence hospital, wrote in a message to the community that the hospital did not have the necessary staff, space or beds to keep pace with demand.​

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“Due to this scarcity, we are unable to provide lifesaving care to everyone who needs it,” Dr. Solana Walkinshaw wrote.​

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The hospital said that with an emergency room overflowing, patients have to wait in their cars for hours to see a physician for emergency care. Elective surgeries continue to be postponed. Dr. Solana Walkinshaw said rationing care may include dialysis and “specialized ventilatory support.”​

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Providence Alaska Medical Center is a critical hub for patients from all over the state, serving as the destination for many people who need a higher level of care that can’t be provided in their home communities. Dr. Solana Walkinshaw said the hospital has been unable to accept patients from other facilities.​

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Alaska has been reporting record hospitalization numbers in recent days. New daily case numbers have also been on the rise, but Gov. Mike Dunleavy has resisted implementing mitigation measures — such as mask mandates — that other states have embraced.​

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On Tuesday, Dr. Solana Walkinshaw pleaded with members of the public to wear masks, even those who are vaccinated, and encouraged more vaccinations. She also encouraged people to avoid potentially dangerous activities because people who get seriously injured may not get access to a bed at the hospital’s trauma center.​

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Dr. Solana Walkinshaw said the hospital expects an escalation in Covid hospitalizations in the coming weeks.​

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“What is already a stressful situation could rapidly progress to a catastrophe,” Dr. Solana Walkinshaw wrote.​

Evidence such as this is proof that we are still in the clutches of a critical crisis.

Evidence is also overwhelming that compassionate but firm public policy is our path out of this crisis.

Anyone okay with hospitals in crisis mode due exclusively to surges in unvaccinated COVID cases is completely out of touch.

To those who wish to continue to argue about it: Express your opinions, even if they are unpopular. It’s certainly your right and despite some saying their opinions are being oppressed, I’ve seen a ton of patience here from folks willing to continue to discuss and debate.

But COVID isn’t going to grant us a “time out” to endlessly debate what to do. The problem at this point is clear and so are the solutions. Enacting those solutions is not being mean and it’s not without compassion. It’s also not a coordinated conspiratorial assault on freedom of expression or personal freedom.

Doing everything responsible to get us past this is the only way forward. Policy hesitation for fear of angering a minority of those with opposing views is just prolonging the suffering and uncertainty for everyone.

 

[mmascari]

So far only NYC and San Fran have required all players to be vaccinated so an unvaccinated player cannot play for those 3 teams unless they want to skip every home game. Somehow the visiting players aren’t required to be vaccinated tp enter those arenas. I guess that’s a league rule. The home team cannot ban the visiting team‘s beat player from playing. If more cities follow that plan, and it’s likely they will, there will be less and less places for unvaccinated players to play. Right now it’s 10% of teams but that could easily reach 30% or more if a handful of major urban centers make arena rules like NY and SF. Cities like LA, Chicago, Philly, DC, Boston, Portland, etc…

I hadn't thought about a city rule knocking out players on the other team. But, that's an interesting concept that could play out with local regulations. If a city government develops a last minute regulation and knocks out the opponent team, while also betting on the game, what would we call that?

I was just thinking about the protocols around when someone tests positive. Presumably, if a team has a player (or staff) test positive, there are impacts to that player, any close contact that's unvaccinated, and possibly some lesser impact to vaccinated close contacts. I doubt they just let the positive player and unvaccinated contacts play normally. We can think of it similar to a player being injured and missing games. Only, the chance of "injury" is much larger and likely to impact more than just one player. Something like a team bus getting in an accident that prevents half the team from playing in a few games. Except, the risk of positive COVID test with unvaccinated players (and staff) is much larger than the bus accident injuring the team.

That's what makes it a competitive disadvantage. Carrying unvaccinated players/staff means if they're not really careful, any of the routine testing has the possibility of tanking a few games. In a close season, that could be enough to knock a team out of contention.

 

[LittleBuford]

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, if you have COVID and end up on a ventilator you are not likely to ever come off of it so I don't know how much this would matter.

Absolutely false. The likelihood of survival is somewhere around 50%. It varies widely depending on such factors as the age of the patient, but the point is that being ventilated is not a death sentence; on the contrary, it’s some people’s only chance of making it.

 

[drizgirl]

Absolutely false. The likelihood of survival is somewhere around 50%. It varies widely depending on such factors as the age of the patient, but the point is that being ventilated is not a death sentence; on the contrary, it’s some people’s only chance of making it.

Yes, early in the pandemic they lost about 80% of those put on ventilators. But treatment protocols have improved and the numbers have gotten better.

 

[SteveAZee]

I don’t think the suggestion is to knowingly just deny care while standing idly by, but to prioritize people who have been vaccinated over those who are not vaccinated. Decisions regarding who gets care are already being made, and the suggestion is that those who chose to be vaccinated should not be the ones left to suffer. If two people need a ventilator and only one is left it goes to the vaccinated person.

I'd be curious to hear from people on the front lines regarding this. If you take the vax/unvax part of it out, do you provide the single resource (ventilator in this case) to the one most likely to survive, OR do you pick the one who's least likely to survive without it?

I see your point regardless, though.

 

[mmascari]

Vaccine exemption letters – Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

www.spaghettimonster.org

Make sure to read what it's exempting.

 

[Heelz2315]

I posted this in the return to normalcy tracker but it may be relevant here as well:

I did some digging. Per the CDC website, Orange Co Fl has a rolling positivity rate of 12.54%, with a last weekly decrease of .88%. They define levels of transmission like this:

0-5% is Low
5.1-7.99% - Moderate
8-9.99% - Substantial
10% and higher - High

IF Disney goes by this to remove indoor masks I think they'll want to get it to the Moderate stage. At the current rate the % is falling that'd be in about 6-8 weeks or so IF it continues to drop at that same .88% rate or so.

Novemberish the levels SHOULD be low enough for Disney to relax the indoor masks. Whether they do it or not is anybody's guess.

 

[carolina_yankee]

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, if you have COVID and end up on a ventilator you are not likely to ever come off of it so I don't know how much this would matter.

I do think that if a hospital is going to run out of room, COVID patients who are vaccinated should be prioritized.

Plenty of people with COVID on ventilators do get off them so that is not true, at least not to the point where "it doesn't matter."

Part of the problem now, in fact, is that younger people, who are inherently stronger, are getting on ventilators, and staying on them longer precisely because they are stronger, before either dying or getting successfully weaned off.

 

[Patcheslee]

School board finally made a vote on the mask policy. Now required if county status is Red or Orange in the Indiana website. Vaccinated students still don't have to quarantine unless symptomatic. Slightly annoying it took them 6 weeks to make a decision especially when cases are going down. They could have had the same policy in place 6 weeks ago when school started and been doing this much sooner. We went Orange 3 weeks ago.

 

[Lilofan]

I don’t disagree but it’s a league run by the players. It’s interesting to me that 85% of the players are vaccinated but the union still won’t support vaccine mandates. What would the other 15% do? Go play in Europe or China?

Some play in China and are worshipped. Linsanity paid more and more lucrative in China/CBA but Lin decided to gamble and go back to the NBA, Marbury went to China/ CBA after the NBA and he is King Marbury over there.

 

[Willmark]

Vaccine exemption letters – Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

www.spaghettimonster.org

Make sure to read what it's exempting.

I don’t think his noodliness would bother his noodly appendage with such trivial matters.

The Pastafarians are on their own here.

But checking I don’t see anything in the Book of Ramen regarding the vax. Definitely a temporal not spiritual matter.