Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Lilofan]

Survival means something very different to people who haven’t eaten for days and who don’t have electricity to turn on their TVs or go argue on the Internet let alone a slice of bread.

This makes for interesting non fiction but not buying it.

 

[ohioguy]

Your freedom ends where mine begins. I'd be fine with individuals not getting vaccinated if they weren't compromising precious medical resources and mostly being belligerent about getting the the vaccine for political reasons. Otherwise, sleeves up or shut up.

 

[Lilofan]

Your freedom ends where mine begins. I'd be fine with individuals not getting vaccinated if they weren't compromising precious medical resources and mostly being belligerent about getting the the vaccine for political reasons. Otherwise, sleeves up or shut up.

And also to add - pony up more $$. Being unvaccinated can cost more in the future and shut one out some of life's opportunities and enjoyment. That " Ma' Freedom, Body, Choice in 'Merica" can have its drawbacks.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Makes you look pro-active after the fact.

Or, helps prevent or mitigate the next wave. Lest we forget, remember how everyone was celebrating the "end of COVID" at the beginning of summer 2020? Well, the virus taught us a lesson that many of us refuse to learn.

 

[Willmark]

My friend, our problems clearly run much deeper than covid. Covid is nothing compared to it, honestly. I thought the last 4 years of the political forum were bad. This place (which is likely just a reflection of the larger populace) is setting a new low.

Indeed it is.

I'm floored really.

I’m not.

I would say this based on my own experience here and in the private forum, is that you can't even suggest a contrarian position or raise a question that goes against the narrative.

Nope, not allowed.

While there may be those who are saying things just to downplay covid or the vaccine, some of us are simply questioning the plan or asking questions in general. And there is much to question all around the pandemic. That is evident here in these last few pages.

Skepticism? Nope fall in line.

I am beginning to think that being homeless is right where I need to be. It's not comfortable to be sure but I will not abide some of this nonsense. And there is nothing righteous or 'right side of history' about any of the behavior you describe.

Can’t like this part enough.

Well said, but this is not the general tone around here. It can be and has been in brief spurts when the either/or garbage subsides. But it is never sustained and this mirrors what is going on in real life.

This post is correct in every particular.

I’d add more but have a feeling there would be or already are some twitchy fingers on the report buttons. I’ve been vaccinated for while, but I have a whole lot of doubts about the entire situation regarding the pandemic.

 

[Lilofan]

There has to be a common middle ground. In this case, responsible public vaccination policy; vaccine passports/testing requirements for crowded venues; a genuine, sincere, enthusiastic and concerted effort from state and local leaders across all 50 states to encourage folks to get vaccinated, including widespread and ongoing vaccination drives and outreach; responsible mitigation strategies in schools and crowded places; and insurance incentives/penalties for vaccinated/unvaccinated citizens (either or both) all seem like reasonable ways to get through this as quickly as possible with compassion *and* resolve.

Some are misled that feel that anti vax are being attacked such as ( penalizing , restricting opportunities for work and enjoyment for the anti vax ). I feel that these items are in order for the able bodied ones who refuse to be vaccinated and I think there is more coming. There may be a light bulb that may go off ( ie a loved one , friend, family , anti vax radio host , dying from covid ) to make a few realize to roll up their sleeves for the shot. I don't believe they should shut up ( freedom of speech ) but " you reap what you sow ".

 

[LaughingGravy]

I have to take issue with the bolded. Look, I get your frustration, and completely sympathize. Personally though, that’s a line I don’t think any of us should cross. Yes, no doubt the vast majority of Covid patients in intensive care chose not to be vaccinated. They also chose the consequences of what may happen if they contracted Covid. I seriously doubt any of them checked the box that had the choice of being hospitalized.

My Body My Choice which seems to be the mantra, even if you didn't directly say that here means that at this point, anyone who can get the vaccination who refuses who catches covid and ends up in the hospital is absolutely checking the box of the choice to be hospitalized with Covid. They may not bring themselves to the hospital, but unless there is the equivalent of a DNR for their families to obey, that box is checked.
We are well past lines to not be crossed as well as slippery slopes.

 

[LaughingGravy]

Thank you for being the voice of humanity. I'm so discouraged lately at the attitude shown by so many. I think if someone suggested setting up concentration camps for the unvaccinated many here would herald it a great advancement and jump right on board.

I say that as a fully vaccinated person who is also very frustrated by all the vaccine hesitancy I see.

The attitude comes from the frustration of the nonsense and it being promoted either tacitly ( saying nothing and being vaccinated) or actively by those with influence whether they be Nicki Minaj, or those who grab on to that and repeat/promote it as "something to think about", while at the same time saying things like " I didn't suggest not getting vaccinated. That's a personal choice." in the exercise of absolving themselves of any responsibility for actively contributing to this going on much longer than it should have.

There is frustration with certain channels of social and regular media, but they aren't the only ones to blame. You've also got the neighbor who watches this stuff talking to the neighbor or family member who doesn't and that passes on the reluctance because people often trust their friends and relatives to not steer them wrong.
Dad/Mom/Pastor/(pick your real in person authority figure) said the vaccines are evil/microchipped/ not safe/useless so I'm not getting it or they are not letting me get it.
The jumps to the ideas of nazis and concentration camps don't help.

All this after how many people have already been vaccinated and the incredibly vast and clear majority of fatal cases of covid are now of those unvaccinated.
It's affecting lots of lives, not just those who die and their families, but lots of businesses and the economy in general.

I would love to go to DL or Knoebels ( local park), but I'm not. I'm vaxxed and so are a lot of others, but many of us are curtailing things such as travel, in person shopping, and other events such as parties, theater, you name it because this is all still going on.
We know of a breakthrough case of a friend with a two shot vaccine who was miserable for a week.

 

[lewisc]

Thank you for being the voice of humanity. I'm so discouraged lately at the attitude shown by so many. I think if someone suggested setting up concentration camps for the unvaccinated many here would herald it a great advancement and jump right on board.

I say that as a fully vaccinated person who is also very frustrated by all the vaccine hesitancy I see.

I think you're overstating the solution that the vaccinated might secretly want. I think house confinement would be enough to keep that group happy

 

[MisterPenguin]

Alaska E.R. patients are waiting hours in vehicles as a major hospital rations care.​

Alaska’s largest hospital announced Tuesday that a relentless coronavirus outbreak driven by the highly contagious Delta virus variant has left emergency room patients waiting hours in their vehicles and forced medical teams to ration care.​

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At Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage, the hospital said it was now operating under “crisis standards of care” — procedures put in place to prioritize resources in a way that may leave some patients with substandard care.​

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Alaska, where 60 percent of adults are fully vaccinated, is just one state among many where the Delta variant has run rampant, straining hospitals to their breaking points. Last week, Idaho announced that medical centers in the northern part of its state would move to crisis standards of care. In Alabama, all I.C.U. beds are occupied, as hospitals in Southern states run dangerously low on space in intensive care units.​

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In Mississippi, where 51 percent of adults are fully vaccinated, state officials tried to outsource “I.C.U.-level-care patients” to Kentucky. And in North Dakota, an executive at the state’s largest health care system said it could use as many as 300 additional nurses to help treat Covid-19 patients.​

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In Anchorage, Dr. Kristen Solana Walkinshaw, a senior leader at the Providence hospital, wrote in a message to the community that the hospital did not have the necessary staff, space or beds to keep pace with demand.​

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“Due to this scarcity, we are unable to provide lifesaving care to everyone who needs it,” Dr. Solana Walkinshaw wrote.​

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The hospital said that with an emergency room overflowing, patients have to wait in their cars for hours to see a physician for emergency care. Elective surgeries continue to be postponed. Dr. Solana Walkinshaw said rationing care may include dialysis and “specialized ventilatory support.”​

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Providence Alaska Medical Center is a critical hub for patients from all over the state, serving as the destination for many people who need a higher level of care that can’t be provided in their home communities. Dr. Solana Walkinshaw said the hospital has been unable to accept patients from other facilities.​

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Alaska has been reporting record hospitalization numbers in recent days. New daily case numbers have also been on the rise, but Gov. Mike Dunleavy has resisted implementing mitigation measures — such as mask mandates — that other states have embraced.​

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On Tuesday, Dr. Solana Walkinshaw pleaded with members of the public to wear masks, even those who are vaccinated, and encouraged more vaccinations. She also encouraged people to avoid potentially dangerous activities because people who get seriously injured may not get access to a bed at the hospital’s trauma center.​

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Dr. Solana Walkinshaw said the hospital expects an escalation in Covid hospitalizations in the coming weeks.​

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“What is already a stressful situation could rapidly progress to a catastrophe,” Dr. Solana Walkinshaw wrote.​

 

[MisterPenguin]

The U.S. Army tells troops to get vaccinated soon or face discipline up to possible dismissal.​

The U.S. military’s largest service branch has announced an extensive timeline for troops to get vaccinated against Covid-19, and what they can expect to have happen if they don’t.​

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Army officials said Tuesday that all active-duty units are expected to be fully vaccinated by Dec. 15, and Reserve and National Guard members by June 30. Those who refuse to be vaccinated and have not been given an exemption will face suspension or even dismissal, according to the guidelines.​

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“While soldiers who refuse the vaccine will first be counseled by their chain of command and medical providers,” the Army guidelines say, “continued failure to comply could result in administrative or nonjudicial punishment — to include relief of duties or discharge from the service.”​

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Since the Pentagon mandated coronavirus vaccinations last month, the percentage of all military service members with at least one shot has risen to 83 percent from 76 percent, according to Defense Department data. By comparison, in the general American population only 63 percent have gotten at least one shot and 54 percent are fully vaccinated, according to a New York Times database.​

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The possible consequences for not complying in the Army vary somewhat by role. Army commanders, command sergeants major, first sergeants and officers on track for future command assignments who refuse to be vaccinated and are not given an exemption face suspension and relief from duty. Soldiers of all ranks who are not in command positions can receive a general order of reprimand, which may be removed from their file when they are next transferred or may be placed into their permanent file, affecting future assignments and promotions.​

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The Army is the last branch of the military to issue guidelines following the Pentagon’s announcement last month that active-duty military personnel would be required to be vaccinated.​

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The Navy and Marines have already informed their rank and file that the clock is ticking on their vaccinations.​

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All active-duty Air Force troops must be fully vaccinated by Nov. 2, and Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve members by Dec. 2. The directive has had immediate impact in the Air Force: 74.5 percent of active-duty members have now had at least one vaccine shot, up from 65.2 percent last month.​

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Active-duty sailors and Marines must be fully vaccinated within 90 days of Aug. 30, while reserve Navy service members have 120 days to comply. Refusal without an approved exemption may result in administrative action, according to the Navy plan.​

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All Navy coronavirus deaths have been among troops who were not fully immunized; one was partially vaccinated.​

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Vaccination rates in the military already outpace much of the rest of the country, but commanders are seeking nearly total compliance, as the military does with many other vaccines, fearing that failure to get everyone inoculated would imperil readiness.​

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“This is quite literally a matter of life and death for our soldiers, their families and the communities in which we live,” Lt. Gen. R. Scott Dingle, the Army Surgeon General, said in a news release. “Case counts and deaths continue to be concerning as the Delta variant spreads, which makes protecting the force through mandatory vaccination a health and readiness priority for the total Army.”​

 

[GoofGoof]

I’m talking about communities outside the political spectrum of this whole debate. Say you get 85% of the country vaccinated, you call that other 15% “idiots” but they’re not idiots, they live horrible lives in rural and urban places. The vaccine and covid don’t take center stage over hunger. They have the same concerns over the vaccine as the “lunatics” that get talked about everywhere.

All I’m saying is that this isn’t a one answer game. Nudging people, trying to change their mind, forcing your standards on them - it’s not going to work. If you want 80% vaccinated you need to understand life outside your world and you need to understand that your solution is not everyone’s solution. Covid will still exist in these communities that you will never ever hear about on whatever your news source of choice is.

So you think the only problem is poor people living in condemned houses? 15% of the population is 50M people. A basic Google search shows me that 34M people in America live below the poverty line. That’s not to say they all sleep on the floor of a crack house with no electricity and no job. Many of those people have jobs and families but they just don’t make a lot of money. So even if 100% of the people below the poverty line decided not to get vaccinated if we got everyone else that is about 90% of the country. Realistically there’s no reason to believe the vaccine rate of those in poverty won’t be at or above 50% at worst. As I said already there have been numerous campaigns run to get people vaccinated and those efforts will continue. Just like MMR and polio vaccines many of those people will likely be among the last to go. It takes time and it takes manpower to bring the vaccine to these people.

All that being said what you are ignoring is the benefit of getting to the 100M people covered under OSHA and employer mandates. You are suggesting that we shouldn’t be attempting to get these people vaccinated because there are some other poor people who haven’t gone either. That makes no sense. You say the plan I support won’t work but you advocate that we continue the status quo and that hasn’t and will not work. We waited (patiently at first and impatiently more recently) for people to go and get the shot on their own. We have waited since April. That plan isn’t working and won’t work. We’ve moved on to plan B.

 

[MisterPenguin]

‘Their Crisis’ Is ‘Our Problem’: Washington Grapples With Idaho Covid Cases (Published 2021)

Hospitals in Washington State, already strained, are taking on an influx of Covid patients from Idaho, where the governor has refused to require masks or vaccinations.

www.nytimes.com

 

[GoofGoof]

Or, helps prevent or mitigate the next wave. Lest we forget, remember how everyone was celebrating the "end of COVID" at the beginning of summer 2020? Well, the virus taught us a lesson that many of us refuse to learn.

Agreed. Plus as I stated earlier the executive order signed by the Mayor of Honolulu that covers dining on Oahu and Aulani that we were talking about was signed 8/23 and went into effect 9/13. Maui has a similar order, not sure about the other 2 islands. The case numbers peaked in Hawaii on 9/3 so the narrative that they waited until cases dropped to put this into place is untrue (Shocking…I know). Yes, cases are dropping now but they certainly were not when the order was signed and they are still above where leaders would like to see them.

 

[GoofGoof]

I think you're overstating the solution that the vaccinated might secretly want. I think house confinement would be enough to keep that group happy

I just want the people to take the vaccine and safely move on with their lives. Like they took the MMR vaccine and polio vaccine and others. There’s no need for dramatics and hysterics. It’s a simple process we’ve all been doing for generations now. People have over complicated this situation.

 

[DisneyCane]

I don’t think the suggestion is to knowingly just deny care while standing idly by, but to prioritize people who have been vaccinated over those who are not vaccinated. Decisions regarding who gets care are already being made, and the suggestion is that those who chose to be vaccinated should not be the ones left to suffer. If two people need a ventilator and only one is left it goes to the vaccinated person.

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, if you have COVID and end up on a ventilator you are not likely to ever come off of it so I don't know how much this would matter.

I do think that if a hospital is going to run out of room, COVID patients who are vaccinated should be prioritized.

 

[drizgirl]

I think you're overstating the solution that the vaccinated might secretly want. I think house confinement would be enough to keep that group happy

Maybe we could weld them into their apartments.

 

[drizgirl]

The attitude comes from the frustration of the nonsense and it being promoted either tacitly ( saying nothing and being vaccinated) or actively by those with influence whether they be Nicki Minaj, or those who grab on to that and repeat/promote it as "something to think about", while at the same time saying things like " I didn't suggest not getting vaccinated. That's a personal choice." in the exercise of absolving themselves of any responsibility for actively contributing to this going on much longer than it should have.

There is frustration with certain channels of social and regular media, but they aren't the only ones to blame. You've also got the neighbor who watches this stuff talking to the neighbor or family member who doesn't and that passes on the reluctance because people often trust their friends and relatives to not steer them wrong.
Dad/Mom/Pastor/(pick your real in person authority figure) said the vaccines are evil/microchipped/ not safe/useless so I'm not getting it or they are not letting me get it.
The jumps to to the ideas nazis and concentration camps don't help.

All this after how many people have already been vaccinated and the incredibly vast and clear majority of fatal cases of covid now are of those unvaccinated.
It's affecting lots of lives, not just those who die and their families, but lots of businesses and the economy in general.

I would love to go to DL or Knoebels ( local park), but I'm not. I'm vaxxed and so are a lot of others, but many of us are curtailing things such as travel, in person shopping, and other events such as parties, theater, you name it because this is all still going on.
We know of a breakthrough case of a friend with a two shot vaccine who was miserable for a week.

I've been reading here a while. No need to restate all of that. I'm frustrated too.

Instead of using the fact that the vast and clear majority of fatal Covid cases are unvaccinated to make your case about others, use it as reassurance that you should get back out and go to Disneyland.

You could also catch any one of another viruses and be miserable for a week. Do you stay home to avoid that?

 

[drizgirl]

Looks like NBA players won't be required to get the vaccine.

Sources: NBA players won't have to get vaccine

The COVID-19 vaccine won't be required for NBA players this season, sources tell ESPN's Baxter Holmes and Adrian Wojnarowski.

www.espn.com

 

[Heppenheimer]

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, if you have COVID and end up on a ventilator you are not likely to ever come off of it so I don't know how much this would matter.

I do think that if a hospital is going to run out of room, COVID patients who are vaccinated should be prioritized.

I disagree with you on a lot... but not necessarily here. If and when COVID ever causes what is effectively a mass casualty situation (defined as when the immediate medical demand exceeds the local medical resources ability to meet that demand), those who are unlikely to be saved are placed in the "expectant" category. Meaning, they are kept as comfortable as possible, but not treated with more resource-intensive, curative intent.

I don't know if any region in the US has effectively reached this point yet, but in such a case, because being vaccinated gives a clear survival benefit even in severe illnesses, care could reasonably be triaged to the disadvantage of the unvaccinated. That wouldn't be a moral judgement of who is more "deserving", it would simply be a matter of allocating limited resources where they can have the greatest impact.

I've worked in a MASCAL situation before. It isn't pretty and its something we absolutely want to avoid in all possible scenarios. Hence, why I favor vaccine and mask mandates.