Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Andrew C]

The rule will be coming from OSHA not the White House

Who is directing OSHA to implement this policy? Where did the policy start?

 

[GoofGoof]

Personally, I'm tired of sitting back and waiting for states and people to "do the right thing." Biden has been incredibly patient and nearly pleading every citizen to take the completely safe and effective vaccine and there's still 80 million that have found a way to come up with excuses that don't make sense.

It's obvious at this point leaving it up to the states won't move the needle for those that are left to be vaccinated. This might.

At least for the 100M+ workers covered by OSHA and millions more who work for the Federal Government. It doesn’t help state workers and people who don’t work at all. Still a big step forward.

 

[Andrew C]

Personally, I'm tired of sitting back and waiting for states and people to "do the right thing." Biden has been incredibly patient and nearly plead every citizen to take the completely safe and effective vaccine and there's still 80 million that have found a way to come up with excuses that don't make sense.

It's obvious at this point leaving it up to the states won't move the needle for those that are left to be vaccinated. This might.

I want all 50 states to act, but the feds don't get to do what they want because the states won't act on vaccine mandates. Watch it play out though...it is gonna get messy.

 

[GoofGoof]

Who is directing OSHA to implement this policy? Where did the policy start?

Why would that matter? All that matters is whether OSHA has the authority or not.

 

[disneygeek90]

A president doesn't get to do what he wants because the states won't act on vaccine mandates. Watch it play out though...it is gonna get messy.

Like it or not, we are a United States. I haven't seen very much unity over the past 18 months. Maybe it's time we start acting like it.

 

[Andrew C]

Why would that matter? All that matters is whether OSHA has the authority or not.

That is not accurate at all. And that is not how the states or anyone else is gonna play it out in a courtroom.

 

[Timmay]

So you believe that if an agency has clear authority to implement a policy, the fact that it stated an intent other than that intended by the policy will result in removing the authority to act?

I think it can be called into question, especially when it was the WH Chief of Staff that said the move was “the ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations.” He probably should have just kept his face shut.

At the end of the day, we won’t be the ones arguing the cases in front of the courts, and anything any of us say is pure speculation…mostly based on what we think is right, not necessarily what we think is constitutional law. This probably needs to go right to the top quickly, but I don’t know if that’s possible.

 

[Andrew C]

Like it or not, we are a United States. I haven't seen very much unity over the past 18 months. Maybe it's time we start acting like it.

I am really trying to avoid politics, but I think certain governors should have been invited to the WH for a summit. Come up with a freakin compromise instead of the endless lawsuits we are about to see. This new order will only further divide. Maybe a governor would not be willing to mandate vaccinations for all in his/her state, but would be willing to mandate it for all state/local govt employees, contractors, hospital workers and everyone at public schools. I dunno, maybe they do talk and we don't hear about it. But I highly doubt there is anything direct between the Pres and some governors. It is sad...

 

[DisneyFan32]

When they will approve vaccines for 12+ and 5-11 kids by end of the year or 2022?

 

[Touchdown]

I am really trying to avoid politics, but I think certain governors should have been invited to the WH for a summit. Come up with a freakin compromise instead of the endless lawsuits we are about to see. This new order will only further divide. Maybe a governor would not be willing to mandate vaccinations for all in his/her state, but would be willing to mandate it for all state employees, contractors, hospital workers and everyone at public schools. I dunno, maybe they do talk and we don't hear about it. But I highly doubt there is anything direct between the Pres and some governors. It is sad...

And then pixie dust could erupt from all presents posteriors and turn into a giant rainbow as a unicorn walks in the room.

When there are certain governors auditioning to be a presidential candidate by choosing to do exactly the opposite of the current holder of that office it’s never going to happen.

 

[Andrew C]

And then pixie dust could erupt from all presents posteriors and turn into a giant rainbow as a unicorn walks in the room.

When there are certain governors auditioning to be a presidential candidate by choosing to do exactly the opposite of the current holder of that office it’s never going to happen.

You won't know until you get in the room and sit down with someone and talk it out. Better than throwing elbows from across the country. I know it is not politics. But it is leadership.

 

[GoofGoof]

That is not accurate at all. And that is not how the states or anyone else is gonna play it out in a courtroom.

It’s actually 100% accurate. We can agree to disagree. Let it play out in court.

 

[Andrew C]

It’s actually 100% accurate. We can agree to disagree. Let it play out in court.

You're a constitutional attorney today, I see? 100%!! come on...

 

[Touchdown]

You won't know until you get in the room and sit down with someone and talk it out. Better than throwing elbows from across the country. I know it is not politics. But it is leadership.

If you don’t think private phone calls haven’t already occurred I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

 

[sullyinMT]

I'm terribly conflicted about all of it. I'm a strong supporter of states' rights but we are in a pandemic so if ever there will be extenuating circumstances, this is it. But I do feel strongly that if you're going to strong arm some citizens, they you should try hard to apply the same rules to everyone. Plus I have a suspicion that the teachers' unions are getting special treatment here.

I've been fully vaccinated since the early days, as has the rest of my family and my parents. So I sit and watch, not fully on either side of this issue.

I understand your being torn on the issue. Others have laid out the precedent for OSHA and CMS rules, which have been around with bipartisan court precedent since long before our current situation. I also found the quotes from Justice Harlan, shared by @MisterPenguin last night align pretty well with what it means to have individual freedom vs a functioning society and economy. He inspired me to do a little reading on the justice, and I found the potential parallels to today quite fascinating. Prior to serving on the Supreme Court, he was a Republican AG of Kentucky and a defender of civil rights when that was a lonely position to have. In the 1905 decision of Jacobson v Cambridge, he wrote, "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

My being miffed, though, has a hierarchy. First, the anti-vaxx movement and the social media/private broadcasting platforms that have profited from people's (at first) legitimate concern or curiosity. They shouldn't have been allowed to feed the algorithm and fear to open this door so wide in the first place. I'm somewhere between angry and apathetic and the individual holdouts, depending on their level of indignation and vociferousness. But their sources of "information" and "research" have a special ring of brimstone awaiting them. Then I place state officials who are actively standing in the way of school boards and businesses from operating in the way they best see fit. I wish they'd move aside and let the free market decide what it wants. Allow businesses to set their employment standards and see which cream rises to the top, and which businesses lose out due to lost productivity, employee hospitalization, and death. Next, I'm angry at whichever businesses are lurking in the shadows, excited at this announcement but unwilling to step up like Disney, United, and Delta to a lesser but significant degree. Hiding behind government action as the reason for their rules only opens the door to more governmental power, as opposed to taking the bull by the horns themselves.

So, I'm not thrilled that it had to come to this. But the administration is where I place the least blame, and who gets the smallest slice of my discontent.

 

[Chi84]

That is not accurate at all. And that is not how the states or anyone else is gonna play it out in a courtroom.

I'm still trying to figure out why you believe it's not accurate. If a valid policy is enacted, why do you believe statements by the White House would render it invalid.

 

[MisterPenguin]

USPS workers are federal employees taking full advantage of the federal employee benefits / retirement plans . They get the same benefits as other federal employees even though USPS claims they are not federal.

Law can create categories that defy logic.

Law can dictate, e.g., "This agency shall no longer be considered a Federal agency, but it retains certain Federal benefits."

And boom, you have Frankenagency.

Unless the courts determine that such a law violates the constitution or the law is changed, such chimeral organizations perdure to the chagrin of taxonomists.

 

[Andrew C]

If you don’t think private phone calls haven’t already occurred I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

I think phone calls have occurred between aides. That is about it. Nothing direct.

 

[Patcheslee]

Biden said yesterday he doesn’t have the authority to mandate vaccinations nationally on everyone. That’s not what the OSHA rule would do and he does have the authority to mandate vaccines for Federal workers.

The OSHA thing is pretty much air tight. I’m sure it gets challenged in court, but it will be terribly difficult for a judge to block that since there are literally years of precedent of OSHA setting safety requirements for workers in the private sector. There is no states rights issue there since OSHA has always been a Federal agency and all 50 states have allowed OSHA to set workplace safety for private companies for decades now. I do think any attempt to force states to mandate vaccines for their own government workers (like teachers) is much less certain to succeed. The precedent is not as strong and there is a much better chance of success in court. That doesn’t mean they won’t try it, just that it has a better chance of being blocked.

Some states have their own occupational safety requirements as well. All so far conform to the current Federal OSHA standards, and some have additional requirements. Makes me wonder if a state will try to do a work around with their state program to contradict the Federal. Like a certain green plant...

 

[Lilofan]

And then pixie dust could erupt from all presents posteriors and turn into a giant rainbow as a unicorn walks in the room.

When there are certain governors auditioning to be a presidential candidate by choosing to do exactly the opposite of the current holder of that office it’s never going to happen.

The guy from FL is batting 0 for 2 with the Courts.