Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[drizgirl]

I'm terribly conflicted about all of it. I'm a strong supporter of states' rights but we are in a pandemic so if ever there will be extenuating circumstances, this is it. But I do feel strongly that if you're going to strong arm some citizens, they you should try hard to apply the same rules to everyone. Plus I have a suspicion that the teachers' unions are getting special treatment here.

I've been fully vaccinated since the early days, as has the rest of my family and my parents. So I sit and watch, not fully on either side of this issue.

 

[drizgirl]

They even said in July that they don’t have the authority.

That seems to happen a lot.

 

[Andrew C]

I'm terribly conflicted about all of it. I'm a strong supporter of states' rights but we are in a pandemic so if ever there will be extenuating circumstances, this is it. But I do feel strongly that if you're going to strong arm some citizens, they you should try hard to apply the same rules to everyone. Plus I have a suspicion that the teachers' unions are getting special treatment here.

I've been fully vaccinated since the early days, as has the rest of my family and my parents. So I sit and watch, not fully on either side of this issue.

Yeah. I’m not happy with any of them to be honest.

 

[GoofGoof]

A certain person in the WH has already come out and basically admitted that this is essentially a way for them to federally mandate the vaccine. This intent is definitely going to be challenged now by the states. I’m not happy with any of the 50 states not doing these types of vaccine mandates on their own. But because they won’t do it doesn’t mean the feds all of a sudden have the authority..outside of federal workers. They even said in July that they don’t have the authority.

Biden said yesterday he doesn’t have the authority to mandate vaccinations nationally on everyone. That’s not what the OSHA rule would do and he does have the authority to mandate vaccines for Federal workers.

The OSHA thing is pretty much air tight. I’m sure it gets challenged in court, but it will be terribly difficult for a judge to block that since there are literally years of precedent of OSHA setting safety requirements for workers in the private sector. There is no states rights issue there since OSHA has always been a Federal agency and all 50 states have allowed OSHA to set workplace safety for private companies for decades now. I do think any attempt to force states to mandate vaccines for their own government workers (like teachers) is much less certain to succeed. The precedent is not as strong and there is a much better chance of success in court. That doesn’t mean they won’t try it, just that it has a better chance of being blocked.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I am not really sure anyone knows at this point, since the Labor department still needs to develop the actual rules.

There are already rules that apply based on business size so I imagine they’d follow that same basis of determination.

 

[Andrew C]

Biden said yesterday he doesn’t have the authority to mandate vaccinations nationally on everyone

Those are just words/talking points. In a courtroom it will be about intent. And someone on his staff high up just admitted what the intent was, in an indirect but clear way. They found a loophole to get what amounts to be a federal mandate.

 

[Touchdown]

I'm terribly conflicted about all of it. I'm a strong supporter of states' rights but we are in a pandemic so if ever there will be extenuating circumstances, this is it. But I do feel strongly that if you're going to strong arm some citizens, they you should try hard to apply the same rules to everyone. Plus I have a suspicion that the teachers' unions are getting special treatment here.

I've been fully vaccinated since the early days, as has the rest of my family and my parents. So I sit and watch, not fully on either side of this issue.

The federal govt has the right to attach strings to money it gives (healthcare workers, headstart, govt contractors)

OSHA had been given a wide mandate by Congress to protect workers (who work for private companies) to mandate safety rules to protect workers from dangers at work. It is not a giant leap to believe that Covid-19 can be considered a “workplace danger” and if a means exist to lessen said danger that OSHA can and should mandate companies to protect their workers.

This really isnt far reaching stuff, I had a problem with CDC mandating an eviction notice as that was clearly outside their scope, but this mandate I feel is completely in OSHAs scope.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm terribly conflicted about all of it. I'm a strong supporter of states' rights but we are in a pandemic so if ever there will be extenuating circumstances, this is it. But I do feel strongly that if you're going to strong arm some citizens, they you should try hard to apply the same rules to everyone. Plus I have a suspicion that the teachers' unions are getting special treatment here.

I've been fully vaccinated since the early days, as has the rest of my family and my parents. So I sit and watch, not fully on either side of this issue.

I’m not sure the teachers union would matter much. The OSHA rules will apply to Teamsters and members of the United Auto Workers and United Steel workers unions which are all massive and powerful unions. The school issue is more around them being state workers.

 

[Lilofan]

Then I guess this is not true? So the post office may not be federal workers but then let's put them in a business category with a LARGE exemption (over 600,000 exemption). And the unions will lead the way with exemptions and leave it at that.


@FanforDisney

Can you explain why US Postal workers are exempt from Biden’s executive order? Seems like there is some politics involved. They are one of the largest groups and have a lot of public contact.

“APWU, one of the very powerful unions representing postal workers blasted Joe Biden in July: “While the APWU leadership continues to encourage postal workers to voluntarily get vaccinated, it is not the role of the federal government to mandate vaccinations for the employees we represent.”

According to a report by the Washington Post, USPS workers are EXEMPT even though they are required to be included in executive orders that apply to federal employees.”

USPS workers are federal employees taking full advantage of the federal employee benefits / retirement plans . They get the same benefits as other federal employees even though USPS claims they are not federal.

 

[GoofGoof]

Those are just words. In a courtroom it will be about intent. And someone on his staff high up just admitted what the intent was, in an indirect but clear way. They found a loophole to get what amounts to be a federal mandate.

This isn’t the court of public opinion or a political debate. In court it’s very fact based and they will look at the facts and circumstances and what authority OSHA has and I don’t think it will be easy to dispute.

 

[Andrew C]

This isn’t the court of public opinion or a political debate. In court it’s very fact based and they will look at the facts and circumstances and what authority OSHA has and I don’t think it will be easy to dispute.

In a courtroom, intent does matter. This isn't just my opinion. It is how the law works.

 

[GoofGoof]

In a courtroom, intent does matter. This isn't just my opinion. It is how the law works.

Intent of what? The rule will be set by OSHA under their well established authority not by executive order from POTUS. You are talking about a whisper down the line rumor that an unnamed source supposedly said, but that person doesn’t formally represent OSHA. There is no way a judge reverses the well established authority of OSHA based on a rumor.

 

[Andrew C]

Intent of what?

The intent of a policy. The policy comes from the WH. Not OSHA. And it is not a rumor. The WH chief of staff is the one who let the cat out of the bag with his little "innocent" retweet.

 

[Chi84]

In a courtroom, intent does matter. This isn't just my opinion. It is how the law works.

So you believe that if an agency has clear authority to implement a policy, the fact that it stated an intent other than that intended by the policy will result in removing the authority to act?

 

[Andrew C]

So you believe that if an agency has clear authority to implement a policy, the fact that it stated an intent other than that intended by the policy will result in removing the authority to act?

I believe the people who will challenge the policy will use the intent of the policy (or what they deem to be the intent based on evidence) in a court of law. I cannot make a clear prediction on how this will turn out.

How many times have we seen one federal judge striker down this policy, then another reverse the ruling, etc. etc.?

 

[Lilofan]

I'm terribly conflicted about all of it. I'm a strong supporter of states' rights but we are in a pandemic so if ever there will be extenuating circumstances, this is it. But I do feel strongly that if you're going to strong arm some citizens, they you should try hard to apply the same rules to everyone. Plus I have a suspicion that the teachers' unions are getting special treatment here.

I've been fully vaccinated since the early days, as has the rest of my family and my parents. So I sit and watch, not fully on either side of this issue.

Being a supporter of state rights has an ugly past in that it was the rallying cry of staunch state segragationists in the 1950s and 1960s. One famous Hollywood actor even voiced his support in his speech in Philadelphia, Mississippi in August 1980.

 

[correcaminos]

There is seriously a part of me that wishes we could mandate people tod o this but I know that will backfire. There is a part of me that wouldn't want to. I still don't get why people are being such ninnies about it all.

 

[GoofGoof]

The intent of a policy. The policy comes from the WH. Not OSHA. And it is not a rumor. The WH chief of staff is the one who let the cat out of the bag with his little retweet.

No you are wrong on this. The rule will be coming from OSHA not the White House. the Chief of Staff can have any opinion he wants but that’s not relevant here. I know you hate me saying it, but that’s a political argument not a legal one.

The only way to overturn it will be to say OSHA does not have the right to oversee the safety of private sector workers despite that authority being established in 1970 by Congress. The only way to legally revoke that authority would be an act of Congress.

 

[disneygeek90]

Personally, I'm tired of sitting back and waiting for states and people to "do the right thing." Biden has been incredibly patient and nearly plead every citizen to take the completely safe and effective vaccine and there's still 80 million that have found a way to come up with excuses that don't make sense.

It's obvious at this point leaving it up to the states won't move the needle for those that are left to be vaccinated. This might.

 

[Andrew C]

Being a supporter of state rights has an ugly past in that it was the rallying cry of staunch state segragationists in the 1950s and 1960s. One famous Hollywood actor even voiced his support in his speech in Philadelphia, Mississippi in August 1980.