Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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dovetail65

Well-Known Member

U.S. states with low vaccination rates see sharp spikes in children with Covid-19.

The number of children admitted to the hospital in the United States with Covid-19 has risen to the highest levels reported to date. Nearly 30,000 of them entered hospitals in August.

Pediatric hospitalizations, driven by a record rise in coronavirus infections among children, have swelled, overwhelming children’s hospitals and intensive care units in states like Louisiana and Texas. During the summer surge, the hospitalization rate was about 10 times as high in unvaccinated adolescents as in those who were vaccinated, according to a recent federal study. Data on hospitalizations among children of different ages is limited.

Children remain markedly less likely than adults to be hospitalized or die from Covid-19. But the United States recorded more than 250,000 child virus cases in the past week, the highest number to date, according to the most recent American Academy of Pediatrics survey of state data.

“It should concern us all that hospitalizations — indicators of severe illness — are rising in the pediatric population, when there are a lot of steps we could take to prevent many of these hospitalizations,” said Jason L. Salemi, an epidemiologist at the University of South Florida, who tracks Covid-19 hospitalization data.

According to Dr. Christopher Carroll, a pediatric intensivist at Connecticut Children’s Medical Center, the average U.S. pediatric I.C.U. in the U.S. has 12 beds. “In a system that small, even a few patients can quickly overrun the capacity, ” he said. “And there are fewer specialty trained pediatric clinicians to pick up the slack.”

Experts have said that vaccinations can make all the difference. States with the highest vaccination rates in the country have seen relatively flat pediatric hospital admissions for Covid-19 so far, while states with the lowest vaccine coverage have child hospital admissions that are around four times as high.

View attachment 585978
And here is the problem when people see this information:

People using their politics and not science and disregarding the reality going on right now proven by the numbers of sick and dead say :

See even with vaccinations people and even kids are getting sick or die.

It is a Logical fallacy.

The people that look at the science and put their political views aside say:

Heck, the vaccine was designed for Covid, not the Delta strain and even still look how the Vaccinations are protecting us and the kids.

This View represents what is actually happening proven by the numbers now and over the last 18 months.

The biggest fallacy is people saying see all the break though cases, why even get vaccinated, people are still getting sick anyhow it doesn't work(again disregarding the numbers ). When in fact break through cases actually mean we need more vaccinated people, not less.
 

sullyinMT

Well-Known Member
*And as an aside, I put a large portion of the blame for the opiate epidemic on the Joint Commission, when they decided to make pain the "5th vital sign" and instituted all those inflexible rules about how pain needed to be addressed.
My wife went to nursing school during this time. By the time I finished allied med 6 years later, it was already out of vogue. I didn’t realize it was a JC thing.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member

Vaccination Mandates Are an American Tradition. So Is the Backlash.


As disease and death reigned around them, some Americans declared that they would never get vaccinated and raged at government efforts to compel them. Anti-vaccination groups spread propaganda about terrible side effects and corrupt doctors. State officials tried to ban mandates, and people made fake vaccination certificates to evade inoculation rules already in place.

The years were 1898 to 1903, and the disease was smallpox. News articles and health board reports describe crowds of parents marching to schoolhouses to demand that their unvaccinated children be allowed in, said Michael Willrich, a professor of history at Brandeis University, with some even burning their own arms with nitric acid to mimic the characteristic scar left by the smallpox vaccine.

“People went to some pretty extraordinary lengths not to comply,” said Professor Willrich, who wrote “Pox: An American History,” a book about the civil liberties battles prompted by the epidemic.

If it all sounds familiar, well, there is nothing new under the sun: not years that feel like centuries, not the wailing and gnashing of teeth over masks, and not vaccine mandates either.

As the coronavirus overwhelms hospitals across the South and more than 650,000 Americans — an increasing number of them children — lie dead, the same pattern is emerging. On Thursday, President Biden announced that he would move to require most federal workers and contractors to be vaccinated and, more sweepingly, that all employers with 100 or more employees would have to mandate vaccines or weekly testing. Colleges, businesses and local governments have enacted mandates at a steady pace, and conservative anger has built accordingly.

On Monday, Representative Jim Jordan, Republican of Ohio, tweeted that vaccine mandates were “un-American.” In reality, they are a time-honored American tradition.

But to be fair, so is public fury over them.

“We’re really seeing a lot of echoes of the smallpox era,” said Elena Conis, an associate professor and historian of medicine at the University of California, Berkeley. “Mandates elicit resistance. They always have.”
The roots of U.S. vaccine mandates predate both the U.S. and vaccines. The colonies sought to prevent disease outbreaks by quarantining ships from Europe and sometimes, in the case of smallpox, requiring inoculations: a crude and much riskier predecessor to vaccinations in which doctors rubbed live smallpox virus into broken skin to induce a relatively mild infection that would guard against severe infection later. They were a source of enormous fear and anger.

In January 1777, George Washington mandated inoculations for the soldiers under his command in the Continental Army, writing that if smallpox were to break out, “we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy.” Notably, it was in large part the soldiers’ desires that overcame his resistance to a mandate.

“They were the ones calling for it,” said Andrew Wehrman, an associate professor of history at Central Michigan University who studies the politics of medicine in the colonial and revolutionary eras. “There’s no record that I have seen — and I’ve looked — of any soldier turning it down, protesting it.”

Buoyed by the success of the mandate, Washington wrote to his brother in June 1777 that he was upset by a Virginia law restricting inoculations. “I would rather move for a Law to compell the Masters of Families to inoculate every Child born within a certain limitted time under severe Penalties,” he wrote.

Over the next century, many local governments did exactly that. Professor Wehrman this week tweeted an example of what, in an interview, he said was a “ubiquitous” phenomenon: The health board in Urbana, Ohio, Jordan’s hometown, enacted a requirement in 1867 that in any future epidemic, “the heads of families must see that all the members of their families have been vaccinated.”

But by the end of the 1800s, opposition was louder and more widespread. Some states, particularly in the West, introduced laws prohibiting vaccine mandates. Others narrowly passed mandates after intense debate.

The reasons for resistance were myriad: Some Americans opposed mandates on the grounds of personal liberty; some because they believed lawmakers were in cahoots with vaccine makers; and some because of safety concerns that were, to be fair, more grounded in reality than the modern equivalent. Vaccines then were not regulated the way they are now, and there were documented cases of doses contaminated with tetanus.

The government’s response resembled what, today, are wild conspiracy theories. Contrary to the assertions of some on the far right, the Biden administration has never suggested going door to door to force people to take coronavirus vaccines. But in the 1890s and 1900s, that actually happened: Squads of men would enter people’s homes in the middle of the night, breaking down doors if necessary, to inject people with smallpox vaccines.

Legally speaking, the Supreme Court resolved the issue of mandatory vaccinations in 1905, ruling 7-2 in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that they were constitutional.

The Constitution “does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint,” Justice John Marshall Harlan, known for defending civil liberties, wrote. “Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”

In the court of public opinion, there was no such resolution.

The polio vaccine was less controversial, mainly because it wasn’t initially mandated and because it had been funded by a widely respected nonprofit: the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, now called the March of Dimes. This reduced opposition based on mistrust of pharmaceutical companies, and most parents willingly got their children vaccinated. The measles vaccine, too, was not particularly controversial because mandates were not initially enforced.

“Nobody was enforcing vaccination, and so it simply didn’t elicit that mistrust,” Professor Conis said. In the smallpox era, by contrast, “skeptical people said, ‘Well, why are we doing this? It just benefits the companies making the vaccine and the doctors administering the vaccine, and why should we trust any of them?’”

But the fear and anger came roaring back with the introduction of childhood vaccination mandates in the 1970s. By 1980, all 50 states required schoolchildren to be vaccinated against an array of diseases.

None of it is new, but one thing distinguishes today’s anti-vaccination protesters from those of the past. The opposition was always political. It wasn’t always partisan.

“There are plenty of echoes today: There are liberty claims, there are strong sentiments about parental rights, there are concerns about the science, there are concerns about the profit involved,” Professor Willrich said. “But this party divide in terms of who is most likely to be hesitant or refuse a vaccine mandate is really, I think, something of our own 21st-century moment.”
 

VelocityRaptor

Active Member

Vaccination Mandates Are an American Tradition. So Is the Backlash.


As disease and death reigned around them, some Americans declared that they would never get vaccinated and raged at government efforts to compel them. Anti-vaccination groups spread propaganda about terrible side effects and corrupt doctors. State officials tried to ban mandates, and people made fake vaccination certificates to evade inoculation rules already in place.

The years were 1898 to 1903, and the disease was smallpox. News articles and health board reports describe crowds of parents marching to schoolhouses to demand that their unvaccinated children be allowed in, said Michael Willrich, a professor of history at Brandeis University, with some even burning their own arms with nitric acid to mimic the characteristic scar left by the smallpox vaccine.

“People went to some pretty extraordinary lengths not to comply,” said Professor Willrich, who wrote “Pox: An American History,” a book about the civil liberties battles prompted by the epidemic.

If it all sounds familiar, well, there is nothing new under the sun: not years that feel like centuries, not the wailing and gnashing of teeth over masks, and not vaccine mandates either.

As the coronavirus overwhelms hospitals across the South and more than 650,000 Americans — an increasing number of them children — lie dead, the same pattern is emerging. On Thursday, President Biden announced that he would move to require most federal workers and contractors to be vaccinated and, more sweepingly, that all employers with 100 or more employees would have to mandate vaccines or weekly testing. Colleges, businesses and local governments have enacted mandates at a steady pace, and conservative anger has built accordingly.

On Monday, Representative Jim Jordan, Republican of Ohio, tweeted that vaccine mandates were “un-American.” In reality, they are a time-honored American tradition.

But to be fair, so is public fury over them.

“We’re really seeing a lot of echoes of the smallpox era,” said Elena Conis, an associate professor and historian of medicine at the University of California, Berkeley. “Mandates elicit resistance. They always have.”
The roots of U.S. vaccine mandates predate both the U.S. and vaccines. The colonies sought to prevent disease outbreaks by quarantining ships from Europe and sometimes, in the case of smallpox, requiring inoculations: a crude and much riskier predecessor to vaccinations in which doctors rubbed live smallpox virus into broken skin to induce a relatively mild infection that would guard against severe infection later. They were a source of enormous fear and anger.

In January 1777, George Washington mandated inoculations for the soldiers under his command in the Continental Army, writing that if smallpox were to break out, “we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy.” Notably, it was in large part the soldiers’ desires that overcame his resistance to a mandate.

“They were the ones calling for it,” said Andrew Wehrman, an associate professor of history at Central Michigan University who studies the politics of medicine in the colonial and revolutionary eras. “There’s no record that I have seen — and I’ve looked — of any soldier turning it down, protesting it.”

Buoyed by the success of the mandate, Washington wrote to his brother in June 1777 that he was upset by a Virginia law restricting inoculations. “I would rather move for a Law to compell the Masters of Families to inoculate every Child born within a certain limitted time under severe Penalties,” he wrote.

Over the next century, many local governments did exactly that. Professor Wehrman this week tweeted an example of what, in an interview, he said was a “ubiquitous” phenomenon: The health board in Urbana, Ohio, Jordan’s hometown, enacted a requirement in 1867 that in any future epidemic, “the heads of families must see that all the members of their families have been vaccinated.”

But by the end of the 1800s, opposition was louder and more widespread. Some states, particularly in the West, introduced laws prohibiting vaccine mandates. Others narrowly passed mandates after intense debate.

The reasons for resistance were myriad: Some Americans opposed mandates on the grounds of personal liberty; some because they believed lawmakers were in cahoots with vaccine makers; and some because of safety concerns that were, to be fair, more grounded in reality than the modern equivalent. Vaccines then were not regulated the way they are now, and there were documented cases of doses contaminated with tetanus.

The government’s response resembled what, today, are wild conspiracy theories. Contrary to the assertions of some on the far right, the Biden administration has never suggested going door to door to force people to take coronavirus vaccines. But in the 1890s and 1900s, that actually happened: Squads of men would enter people’s homes in the middle of the night, breaking down doors if necessary, to inject people with smallpox vaccines.

Legally speaking, the Supreme Court resolved the issue of mandatory vaccinations in 1905, ruling 7-2 in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that they were constitutional.

The Constitution “does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint,” Justice John Marshall Harlan, known for defending civil liberties, wrote. “Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”

In the court of public opinion, there was no such resolution.

The polio vaccine was less controversial, mainly because it wasn’t initially mandated and because it had been funded by a widely respected nonprofit: the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, now called the March of Dimes. This reduced opposition based on mistrust of pharmaceutical companies, and most parents willingly got their children vaccinated. The measles vaccine, too, was not particularly controversial because mandates were not initially enforced.

“Nobody was enforcing vaccination, and so it simply didn’t elicit that mistrust,” Professor Conis said. In the smallpox era, by contrast, “skeptical people said, ‘Well, why are we doing this? It just benefits the companies making the vaccine and the doctors administering the vaccine, and why should we trust any of them?’”

But the fear and anger came roaring back with the introduction of childhood vaccination mandates in the 1970s. By 1980, all 50 states required schoolchildren to be vaccinated against an array of diseases.

None of it is new, but one thing distinguishes today’s anti-vaccination protesters from those of the past. The opposition was always political. It wasn’t always partisan.

“There are plenty of echoes today: There are liberty claims, there are strong sentiments about parental rights, there are concerns about the science, there are concerns about the profit involved,” Professor Willrich said. “But this party divide in terms of who is most likely to be hesitant or refuse a vaccine mandate is really, I think, something of our own 21st-century moment.”
Thank you for posting this. This is a great history lesson
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
My wife went to nursing school during this time. By the time I finished allied med 6 years later, it was already out of vogue. I didn’t realize it was a JC thing.
There were several independent trends moving in that direction, but the Joint Commission was the one that made pain assessment and interventions an inspectible item. And if you know the Joint Commission, you know how their credentialling requirements drive the behavior of health care organizations.

They quietly dropped all of this pain stuff from certification requirements about a decade ago when the monster we all knew this would create became impossible to ignore. I never heard a retraction or apology from them, though. It's a little tough to forgive.
 

sullyinMT

Well-Known Member
There were several independent trends moving in that direction, but the Joint Commission was the one that made pain assessment and interventions an inspectible item. And if you know the Joint Commission, you know how their credentialling requirements drive the behavior of health care organizations.

They quietly dropped all of this pain stuff from certification requirements about a decade ago when the monster we all knew this would create became impossible to ignore. I never heard a retraction or apology from them, though. It's a little tough to forgive.
They’re always fun. The recent scuttlebutt from them in the surgical suite was whether or not short haired staff in traditional surgeon’s caps were sufficiently covered, or should we be donning bouffant caps. The pandemic got them to focus on more important things.

They serve a purpose, but sometimes their behavior and focus seems to feed the notion that a bureaucracy’s first job is to preserve itself. Even if they aren’t an official government agency.
 

Timmay

Well-Known Member
That would be the Joint Commission and Rural Health. Those two organizations audit the hell out of every thing we do in health care, if you want the certification.
Oh, I’m aware. See my other post. Lol
*And as an aside, I put a large portion of the blame for the opiate epidemic on the Joint Commission, when they decided to make pain the "5th vital sign" and instituted all those inflexible rules about how pain needed to be addressed.
In my own self defense, I’m not on the clinical side…Life Safety and Environment of Care only. However, Joint Commission does base and align their standards directly on CMS standards, hence facilities receiving a Joint Commission accreditation are automatically CMS compliant.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
I just had a cussion with a friend who is not vaccinated. Her feeling is that her and husband had Covid so why should I (her) get vaccinated. She feels she should be tested for anti bodies and if showing good then there is no need for shot. I just listen. Her husband is paying $200 a month for not getting vaccinated.

Im glad i work somewhere were they respect personal choice. Im vaxxed sp it wouldn't matter to me but its principle.
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
I don’t have to justify anything. That’s the whole point. Nobody is being forced to be vaccinated.
  • If you want to work for Disney you have to be vaccinated.
  • If you want to go on certain cruises you have to be vaccinated
  • If you want to go to certain sporting events you have to be vaccinated.
  • If you want to go to a bar in NYC you have to be vaccinated.
  • If you want to go to certain colleges you have to be vaccinated
People need to choose what’s more important to them being unvaccinated or doing those things. The more stuff that’s added to the list the more people choose the vaccine. Eventually we will get to the point where enough people are vaccinated. This is the slow and hard way but it’s where we are at.
I understand the need to be vaccinated. However, there are people like my brother who is told by his doctor he can't be because of his medical condition. Having universal rules with no exceptions is wrong. I believe those of us who can get vaccinated owe it to those who can't so we can't insult or exclude all those who are not vaccinated.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I understand the need to be vaccinated. However, there are people like my brother who is told by his doctor he can't be because of his medical condition. Having universal rules with no exceptions is wrong. I Belushi those of us who can get vaccinated owe it to those who can't so we can't insult or exclude all those who are not vaccinated.
This is no different from any other vaccine mandate in the past in that regard. Unless I heard wrong, the plan allows for the rare legitimate medical exemptions. But those who truly can not receive the vaccines can only be safe if nearly everyone else who can be vaccinated does so.

I'm fine with testing as an option for true medical exemptions, at least while community spread remains high.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
I understand the need to be vaccinated. However, there are people like my brother who is told by his doctor he can't be because of his medical condition. Having universal rules with no exceptions is wrong. I believe those of us who can get vaccinated owe it to those who can't so we can't insult or exclude all those who are not vaccinated.
There are indeed medical conditions which preclude the vaccine. But, just as a cautionary tale...

Some of those conditions are temporary, like, e.g., a series of cancer medication that comes to an end.

And some of the medical advice is ill-informed, even by a medical doctor; or, a lie made up by someone to avoid the vaccine.

My best friend's dad kept saying that his doctor told him not to get the vaccine because he once had a severe reaction to the flu shot. That seemed awfully suspicious to me since none of the ingredients in a flu shot that a person would react to are found in the COVID vaccine. So, I kept telling him to get a second opinion.

Well, finally, he messed up getting his 'story' (i.e., his *lie*) straight. The story morphed into a *nurse* telling him not to get the vaccine. And she did so before the vaccine was even available. Well, after his son just called him out for being a liar, and his doctor that was taking care of a shoulder surgery told him to get the vaccine, he eventually did.

Now, I'm not saying your brother's case isn't valid, it could well be. There are indeed medical reasons for not getting the vaccine.

But... I would encourage anyone being told they can't, to get a second opinion.

We still have medical personnel telling people they have to wait 2 weeks after a flu shot to get vaccinated, but that provision was removed by the CDC months ago.
 

lewisc

Well-Known Member
I just had a cussion with a friend who is not vaccinated. Her feeling is that her and husband had Covid so why should I (her) get vaccinated. She feels she should be tested for anti bodies and if showing good then there is no need for shot. I just listen. Her husband is paying $200 a month for not getting vaccinated.
There are some studies which suggest immunity after CCovid may be as good as a vaccine. Israel suggests those people only need one-shot instead of 2.

We're taking the cautious approach
by not waiting until we get more data.

Maybe in a year things will change
$2,400 a year. Posslibility natural immunity isn't enough. I'd get the shot
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Im glad i work somewhere were they respect personal choice. Im vaxxed sp it wouldn't matter to me but its principle.
Vaccines are not a forcefield. They do a pretty good job protecting the individual from a serious illness, but it is still possible for a vaccinated individual to pass the virus to someone else (although the window of active viral shedding is greatly reduced). Because I have a child at home too young to get vaccinated (and another on the way in December), I'm glad I work for an employer that wants to minimize the chances of potentially inflicting the consequences of someone else's ill-informed "choice" on the vulnerable members of my family.
 

lewisc

Well-Known Member
I understand the need to be vaccinated. However, there are people like my brother who is told by his doctor he can't be because of his medical condition. Having universal rules with no exceptions is wrong. I believe those of us who can get vaccinated owe it to those who can't so we can't insult or exclude all those who are not vaccinated.
CDC only lists 2 valid medical exceptions.
  1. You are allergic to one of the components of the vaccine. The 3 vaccines have different ingredients. It's unlikely a person would be allergic to all 3.
  2. You had a severe reaction to the first shot. Based on medical advice you skip the second.
 

LaughingGravy

Well-Known Member
At least you probably have been to one of the largest McDonalds locations in the world at the corner of Sand Lake and I-Drive a few minutes from Universal Orlando.
Nope. DME to Hotel, to Park, back to Hotel, rinse and repeat multiple days, then DME back to airport. It's a McDonalds in the US. Unless they are having Shamrock Shakes and McRibs year round or something else on the menu to make it a special place, nah.
The very last time I was in the area, I was driving a big pickup truck and a loooong trailer full of marching band uniforms, instruments and luggage, so likely wouldn't have bothered to even try and park that beast there....unless there was something special on the menu I knew about before. Even then, my co-driver would have given me an eye roll at the extra out of the way effort.
White Castle, on the other hand, LOL.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I understand the need to be vaccinated. However, there are people like my brother who is told by his doctor he can't be because of his medical condition. Having universal rules with no exceptions is wrong. I believe those of us who can get vaccinated owe it to those who can't so we can't insult or exclude all those who are not vaccinated.
Nobody has universal rules without medical exceptions. Nobody is saying that.
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
Can you explain why US Postal workers are exempt from Biden’s executive order? Seems like there is some politics involved. They are one of the largest groups and have a lot of public contact.

“APWU, one of the very powerful unions representing postal workers blasted Joe Biden in July: “While the APWU leadership continues to encourage postal workers to voluntarily get vaccinated, it is not the role of the federal government to mandate vaccinations for the employees we represent.”

According to a report by the Washington Post, USPS workers are EXEMPT even though they are required to be included in executive orders that apply to federal employees.”

Just to follow up on this from the reporter of that Washington Post story -

 
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