Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
\lurk off\
I missed the beginning of the session, but heard the Order recitation; here's a quick analysis of the Court's Order as read. Judge Cooper granted a permanent injunction in this case, but it simply requires government agencies (and not the Governor) to follow existing Florida law, namely the Florida Parents' Bill of Rights. I would anticipate an appeal by both sides, since relief was granted on only two of the plaintiffs' claims and denied on three claims.

This is not an earthshaking decision; it is from a sleep-deprived judge, relying principally on basic legal principles. There is a much more important decision handed down last night by U.S. Supreme Court on the CDC's eviction ban that actually deals with the CDC's power under the Constitution to issue orders during pandemics (see comment to DisneyCane below). Judge Cooper's decision here is much more timid than the Supremes, but that is because he's a lower court judge and they ... are not).

It's important to recognize that Judge Cooper's Order here follows the same pattern I've pointed out before in the course of pandemic judicial decisions: early in the pandemic, there was a lot of deference to government's emergency orders, but now the government will be put to its proof rather than given a great deal of leeway. But he didn't follow the pattern very far. Judge Cooper held the government had to show only a little proof that at least some doctor, somewhere, had supported a mask ban, even though the plaintiffs' evidence (from the CDC mostly) against a mask ban was "overwhelming." At this preliminary stage of this case, he ruled the government was able to show enough evidence to defeat two of the plaintiffs' claims, and not enough to defeat two others (the fifth claim was denied on technical grounds). That's timid, especially in a constitutional challenge (McCutcheon v. FEC, governmental policy affecting constitutional rights cannot be based on "mere speculation").

As you probably guessed with that lead-in, what is most important in any public policy challenge is the standard of review and the burden of proof. Judge Cooper started out using the same standard of review almost every court reviewing a pandemic order has used -- a version of "intermediate scrutiny," meaning that, in enacting the ban on masks, the government had to show evidence demonstrating an substantial governmental interest (protecting public health, for example), and that their remedy (the mask ban) was reasonable and necessary to achieve that interest, and that there was no less restrictive alternative. In fact, Judge Cooper found that the mask ban did not even meet "rational basis," the lowest possible standard of review: "there is no reasonable or rational justification for not following all provisions of Florida law." The mask ban was, as lawyers say, "ultra vires," beyond the government's statutory authority. The government's downfall was that the Florida Parents' Bill of Rights, "signed by the Governor," gives school boards certain Due Process rights to present evidence to meet the same burden of reasonableness, necessity, and less-restrictive alternatives. The mask ban order did not do so. So, Judge Cooper repeatedly said that the mask ban violated Florida law. Violating the law is never a substantial government interest, and the government did not show that it even considered whether there was a less restrictive alternative which would have permitted parents to "opt out" of the ban. I do think Judge Cooper's ruling will be clarified on appeal, however it turns out, since he also ruled that the Florida Parents' Bill of Rights granted certain rights that would not be reviewed by courts; that sounds like the sort of thing that appeals court judges generally don't like. So don't expect a simple or clear appeals court decision; more likely one that will deal with a lot of jurisprudential background, as did Judge Cooper.


Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the State could put up that defense, but the challenge could still win. In that case, especially under last night's Supreme Court decision blocking the eviction ban, it's highly likely that the State would not win without at least showing evidence satisfying the same kind of analysis about need, reasonableness and less burdensome alternative. Given the various claims rejected in this and other cases, and Justice Barrett's shadow docket dismissal of the Indiana University students' very extensive and well-pled Petition for Emergency Relief against a vaccine mandate, I'm not sure they would win. Quoting from last night's decision in Alabama Association of Realtors v. HHS:
"We expect Congress to speak clearly when authorizing an agency to exercise powers of "vast 'economic and political significance.'" Utility Air Regulatory Group v. EPA, 573 U. S. 302, 324 (2014) (quoting FDA v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp., 529 U. S. 120, 160 (2000)). That is exactly the kind of power that the CDC claims here. At least 80% of the country, including between 6 and 17 million tenants at risk of eviction, falls within the moratorium. ... And preventing them from evicting tenants who breach their leases intrudes on one of the most fundamental elements of property ownership—the right to exclude. See Loretto v. Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corp., 458 U. S. 419, 435 (1982)."
So the Florida Legislature would have to legislate quite carefully under this standard, with hearings and evidence. The Court that really matters is looking pretty carefully at what governments do in these cases, and protecting the "right to exclude" from your property would seem to be a powerful element in their considerations. It's probably a safe bet that the Supremes would not use a low "rational basis" standard of review, but would require much more to justify a vaccine passport ban.
What exactly were the plaintiffs claims? I caught the hearing in medias res (hey, I know some Latin!), so although I heard the judge's response to each claim, I couldn't infer the actual substance of the claims by his rulings.
 

ArmoredRodent

Well-Known Member
What exactly were the plaintiffs claims?
First two (denied relief) were Safe Schools, 3 and 4 (granted relief) were separation of powers, and 5 (dismissed because the plaintiffs didn't actually sue the Dept of Health so the Court couldn't issue an order against them) was against DoH implementation of the Governor's mask ban order.

A nice summary of the claims from WFLA:
  • Count 1 — No relief. Plaintiffs sought a declaration from the court that the governor’s executive order and “related actions or threatened actions” violated a state constitutional amendment approved by voters in 1998 that requires the state to provide “a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools.”
  • Count 2 — No relief. Plaintiffs sought a similar declaration from the court as in count one, based on Article 9, Section 4 of the Florida Constitution, which states: “The school board shall operate, control and supervise all free public schools within the school district.”
  • Count 3 — Judge granted relief. Plaintiffs argued the executive order “undermines schools’ safety and makes arbitrary and capricious demands on public schools in violation of the Florida constitution.” Attorneys argued the governor’s executive order was gratuitous and exceeded his authority.
  • Count 4 — Judge granted relief. Plaintiffs argued the Department of Education exceeded its authority and that “the subject matter of public health matters, such as masking in schools, is appropriately within the authority of the Florida Department of Health.”
  • Count 5 — Judge granted motion to dismiss in part. Plaintiffs argued the Department of Health emergency rule implementing the governor’s executive order also violated their rights under the state constitution.
  • Count 6 — Judge granted relief. Request for Emergency Injunctive Relief. Plaintiffs sought to enjoin the governor’s executive order and all related directives from state agencies from going into effect.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
First two (denied relief) were Safe Schools, 3 and 4 (granted relief) were separation of powers, and 5 (dismissed because the plaintiffs didn't actually sue the Dept of Health so the Court couldn't issue an order against them) was against DoH implementation of the Governor's mask ban order.

A nice summary of the claims from WFLA:
  • Count 1 — No relief. Plaintiffs sought a declaration from the court that the governor’s executive order and “related actions or threatened actions” violated a state constitutional amendment approved by voters in 1998 that requires the state to provide “a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools.”
  • Count 2 — No relief. Plaintiffs sought a similar declaration from the court as in count one, based on Article 9, Section 4 of the Florida Constitution, which states: “The school board shall operate, control and supervise all free public schools within the school district.”
  • Count 3 — Judge granted relief. Plaintiffs argued the executive order “undermines schools’ safety and makes arbitrary and capricious demands on public schools in violation of the Florida constitution.” Attorneys argued the governor’s executive order was gratuitous and exceeded his authority.
  • Count 4 — Judge granted relief. Plaintiffs argued the Department of Education exceeded its authority and that “the subject matter of public health matters, such as masking in schools, is appropriately within the authority of the Florida Department of Health.”
  • Count 5 — Judge granted motion to dismiss in part. Plaintiffs argued the Department of Health emergency rule implementing the governor’s executive order also violated their rights under the state constitution.
  • Count 6 — Judge granted relief. Request for Emergency Injunctive Relief. Plaintiffs sought to enjoin the governor’s executive order and all related directives from state agencies from going into effect.
Thanks.

Also, I found it intriguing that the very law used by DeSantis to support his executive order (the Parental Bill of Rights) was cited by the judge as actually supporting the plaintiffs case. Is this happen often?
 

ArmoredRodent

Well-Known Member
Also, I found it intriguing that the very law used by DeSantis to support his executive order (the Parental Bill of Rights) was cited by the judge as actually supporting the plaintiffs case. Is this happen often?
Happens all the time, more often as you move up in the appeals process. Part of the problem is that legislatures often/usually aren't very clear in what they write, but also there are often fights that we call "rights vs. rights," where the decision requires a lot of balancing. That's why people who say that Supreme Court cases are "clearly" right or wrong or easy make me laugh. By the time important public policy gets into court, there are, by definition, competing interests and points of view, all of which have to be, at least, first understood, then respected, considered and discussed.

Of course, there was that time, many years ago, when the Chief Justice of the Florida Supreme Court leaned over the bench, peered down at me, and said, "You're not from around here, son, and you don't understand." (But, I won that case anyway. :D)
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
Another record caseload -

"Florida on Friday reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that 27,584 COVID-19 cases were added Thursday, according to Miami Herald calculations of CDC data.

The state also reported eight new deaths Thursday. In all, Florida has added at least 3,179,493 confirmed COVID cases statewide and 43,640 deaths.

The cases added on Thursday broke the state’s current single-day case total record. On Aug. 24 26,385 cases were added on a single day, according to Herald calculations of data provided by the CDC.

There were 16,457 people hospitalized for COVID-19 in Florida on Friday, according to data reported to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services from 258 Florida hospitals. That is 376 fewer patients than Thursday’s COVID patient population.

COVID-19 patients also accounted for 28.17% of all hospital patients.

Of the hospitalized in Florida, 3,608 people were in intensive care unit beds, a decrease of 80. That represents 54.22% of the state’s ICU hospital beds from 258 hospitals reporting data."


 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Another record caseload -

"Florida on Friday reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that 27,584 COVID-19 cases were added Thursday, according to Miami Herald calculations of CDC data.

The state also reported eight new deaths Thursday. In all, Florida has added at least 3,179,493 confirmed COVID cases statewide and 43,640 deaths.

The cases added on Thursday broke the state’s current single-day case total record. On Aug. 24 26,385 cases were added on a single day, according to Herald calculations of data provided by the CDC.

There were 16,457 people hospitalized for COVID-19 in Florida on Friday, according to data reported to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services from 258 Florida hospitals. That is 376 fewer patients than Thursday’s COVID patient population.

COVID-19 patients also accounted for 28.17% of all hospital patients.

Of the hospitalized in Florida, 3,608 people were in intensive care unit beds, a decrease of 80. That represents 54.22% of the state’s ICU hospital beds from 258 hospitals reporting data."


I think the reason the hospitalizations are dropping slightly while the cases are at a plateau is that there is a pretty large lag between when somebody who is positive is tested and when the result is reported whereas the hospitalization data is real time. People hospitalized today won't get reported as cases until some time next week but will be reported as hospitalizations tomorrow.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
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mmascari

Well-Known Member
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Even in the highly vaccinated states, there is almost nowhere in the entire USA that has low or moderate spread.
I really wish that have more colors beyond just red. A larger breakdown with many different shades of red. I'm not saying any of the red areas are good, but some of them are much much worse than others.

This just like using whole percentages that give us 100 buckets when all the interesting stuff happens in the last 2 buckets. The 4 buckets of Community Transmission hide the different levels of bad and make them all sound like they're exactly the same.

From the CDC site:
  • Blue (Low Transmission): Counties with fewer than 10 cumulative cases per 100,000 population in the past 7 days, and a cumulative NAAT percent test positivity result below 5% in the past 7 days.
  • Yellow (Moderate Transmission): Counties with 10-49 cumulative cases per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result between 5.0-7.9% in the past 7 days.
  • Orange (Substantial Transmission): Counties with 50-99 cumulative cases per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result between 8.0-9.9% in the past 7 days.
  • Red (High Transmission): Counties with cumulative cases =100 per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result =10.0% in the past 7 days.

It makes it look like Orange County FL at 642/100K and 18.51% positivity is exactly the same as Philadelphia County PA at 190/100K and 6.49%. They're both Red and "not good", but Philadelphia is like brick wall Red and Orange County is Screaming Fire Engine Red.

Which makes the map undervalued and deceptive on how bad some areas are.
 

Smooth

Well-Known Member
Antibody tests are not widely available (you can't walk into a drug store and get one, your doctor has to order one up), are expensive when they are, and apparently from my understanding, not terribly accurate.

It's way easier to just get the damn shot, then people know they are covered either way.
Our local Kroger pharmacies offer Rapid Antibody tests for $25. There are some other places in our little corner of the world that can do antibody tests. I had the antibody test done at Kroger. It took about 15 minutes. I am not aware of antibody tests being done only at doctor's orders.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
I really wish that have more colors beyond just red. A larger breakdown with many different shades of red. I'm not saying any of the red areas are good, but some of them are much much worse than others.

This just like using whole percentages that give us 100 buckets when all the interesting stuff happens in the last 2 buckets. The 4 buckets of Community Transmission hide the different levels of bad and make them all sound like they're exactly the same.

From the CDC site:
  • Blue (Low Transmission): Counties with fewer than 10 cumulative cases per 100,000 population in the past 7 days, and a cumulative NAAT percent test positivity result below 5% in the past 7 days.
  • Yellow (Moderate Transmission): Counties with 10-49 cumulative cases per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result between 5.0-7.9% in the past 7 days.
  • Orange (Substantial Transmission): Counties with 50-99 cumulative cases per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result between 8.0-9.9% in the past 7 days.
  • Red (High Transmission): Counties with cumulative cases =100 per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result =10.0% in the past 7 days.

It makes it look like Orange County FL at 642/100K and 18.51% positivity is exactly the same as Philadelphia County PA at 190/100K and 6.49%. They're both Red and "not good", but Philadelphia is like brick wall Red and Orange County is Screaming Fire Engine Red.

Which makes the map undervalued and deceptive on how bad some areas are.
I'm guessing that from a community transmission standpoint, once a county enters the "high" range they've determined that the risk of an individual catching it isn't appreciably different between the low end and high end. Essentially, you statistically reach a point where you are unlikely to avoid exposure in a given amount of time interacting in public. Once that point is reached it doesn't matter if you are likely to be exposed or really likely to be exposed.

I can only assume that if there was a major difference they'd have more colors.
 

LuvtheGoof

DVC Guru
Premium Member
I really wish that have more colors beyond just red. A larger breakdown with many different shades of red. I'm not saying any of the red areas are good, but some of them are much much worse than others.

This just like using whole percentages that give us 100 buckets when all the interesting stuff happens in the last 2 buckets. The 4 buckets of Community Transmission hide the different levels of bad and make them all sound like they're exactly the same.

From the CDC site:
  • Blue (Low Transmission): Counties with fewer than 10 cumulative cases per 100,000 population in the past 7 days, and a cumulative NAAT percent test positivity result below 5% in the past 7 days.
  • Yellow (Moderate Transmission): Counties with 10-49 cumulative cases per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result between 5.0-7.9% in the past 7 days.
  • Orange (Substantial Transmission): Counties with 50-99 cumulative cases per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result between 8.0-9.9% in the past 7 days.
  • Red (High Transmission): Counties with cumulative cases =100 per 100,000 population or a cumulative NAAT test positivity result =10.0% in the past 7 days.

It makes it look like Orange County FL at 642/100K and 18.51% positivity is exactly the same as Philadelphia County PA at 190/100K and 6.49%. They're both Red and "not good", but Philadelphia is like brick wall Red and Orange County is Screaming Fire Engine Red.

Which makes the map undervalued and deceptive on how bad some areas are.
Well, someone at the CDC or my state is really cooking the numbers then. According to my state's COVID website, my county has a positivity rate of less than 5% for the past 7 days, and only just over 18 cumulative cases per 100,000. That should make my county either Blue or Yellow, and the CDC website has us at Red. Hard to know what to believe anymore.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that from a community transmission standpoint, once a county enters the "high" range they've determined that the risk of an individual catching it isn't appreciably different between the low end and high end. Essentially, you statistically reach a point where you are unlikely to avoid exposure in a given amount of time interacting in public. Once that point is reached it doesn't matter if you are likely to be exposed or really likely to be exposed.
That doesn't seem right. I suppose at some point it would have to be. But at 100/100K doesn't feel like it's that point, seems to low. If if was, every state over 100/100K should be seeing about about the same growth rate and headed for all the same higher numbers. At least for places where people are doing similar mitigation and vaccination. At a glance, different states seem to be more different than that.

I can only assume that if there was a major difference they'd have more colors.
Eh, I'm not confident they would put the nuance into the color scheme. There is some value in not making them different when not everywhere is Red. Since they want to convey that Red is bad. It's only once the entire map is Red that the breakdown becomes more important. It's not like any of the color chart indicators every delivered nuance. This one just feels useless now that it's bad everywhere.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member

It’s too bad vaccination numbers plummeted after peaking in mid April, had we maintained 3 million doses a day wed have administered about 200 million more doses and be fully vaccinated right now.

This could have been more or less contained already. It would be nice to be dealing with only breakthrough cases right now rather than hospitals full of (90%) unvaccinated people.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Here is the weekly report from the Florida DOH (data published 5:30pm).

The number of new deaths reported from the report last week to this report is 1,727.

View attachment 582978View attachment 582979View attachment 582980View attachment 582981
Compared to last week it looks like 225,459 new FL residents got vaccinated. To make any progress, that needs to be a daily number, not a weekly number. Just barely over 1% of the population in a week during the height of the Delta surge that should be scaring people into finally giving in. There's still 32% of the eligible population that hasn't started the process. The real problem continues to be people under 40.
 
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