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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Nothing about the last 18 months has been normal, doesn't mean we should have done the things we did. If cases start rising to the point where the health care system is getting stressed, then mitigations should be put back in place.
If we can get through January numbers with most places not locking down hard, I think we can make it through the latest bump. This is not to suggest that I would ever want to see January numbers again or that I agreed with every decision at that time. I just think we have enough vaccinated to where we won't see those numbers again.
 

Kevin_W

Well-Known Member
At this point, it's just a matter of time --- everyone who isn't vaccinated, will be infected. Delta is just too infectious. So lockdowns only delay that inevitable result.

That seems a bit pessimistic. India's cases have fallen to less than 10% of their peak and cumulatively they have had <32 million cases in a country of 1.4 billion people (2.2% of the population). Most people think the 32 million is vastly undercounted, but we're still talking single digit percetages of the population.

That's in an country with 6% fully vaccinated individuals. So even the Delta variant isnt' instantly spreading to every unvaccinated person.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
From day 1 the entire point was not to buy time. The entire point was to "flatten the curve" so that the healthcare system wasn't overwhelmed. Early on nobody knew for certain that an effective vaccine would be available quickly.
That's a willful misunderstanding of "flatten the curve". It's exactly correct that you do it so the healthcare system isn't overwhelmed. But, if you don't do anything else in that time, as soon as you lift whatever was done, you'll start to overwhelm the healthcare system. Which is what we're seeing in some localized areas now.

If the only reason was to flatten and not use the time to create a better solution that's less disruptive than what was done immediately, you would never stop doing those things. We've all agreed that those mitigations slow not stop the spread. So, just slow it forever and have all the same impacts just spread out over years instead of months or weeks.

We did use the time to develop vaccines and to start rolling them out. We just didn't do anything else. We didn't do the the other things to spot and contain smaller outbreaks before they became large. We're all in on Vaccine or Bust as the only other thing.

The "flatten the curve" description was a good marketing slogan and jingle, it wasn't some complete policy plan. Pretending it was, or if it really was to some, is simply sad.
 

Disney Experience

Well-Known Member
We are talking about Orange County residents. Orange County was mentioned as one of the 12 that were available.
But whose data was still questionable. OC has data but the data has flaws, duplicates, and other inconsistancies.

From article:
In contrast, the numbers produced for Orange County were extensive, and they dated back to Dec.15, when some of the first people in the county received their shot.

However, some of the records for days afterward appeared to be missing.

… Some dates had duplicate entries with different vaccination data entered.
 
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Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
They didn't HAVE to reintroduce restrictions. The CDC guidance for the unvaccinated to wear masks is for the purpose of protecting other unvaccinated people. Since everybody has the opportunity to be vaccinated to protect themselves if they choose, no government should be mandating anything to protect people who choose, for whatever reason, not to protect themselves.

I think Australia proves that it is impossible to get rid of COVID through mitigation, testing and contact tracing. The only thing those measures do is "flatten the curve" and slow the pandemic. The only thing that will ever get rid of COVID is herd immunity gained through vaccination, natural infection or a combination of the two.

You can change my comment from 'had' to re-introduce restrictions to 'chose' to do so, but the result is the same.

Government imposes lots of rules for people's protection. Seatbelts and drug use are things that primarily impact the individual using or not using them, and there are still laws around those behaviours.

Sometimes the government will try and protect those that don't help themselves. That's the reality. It's frustrating for everyone who is vaccinated because it feels like they're being punished for the actions of others, but government in this case is just trying to keep the entire population safer, and isn't going to worry about what's fair nor throw unvaccinated people under the bus. It's easy for the rest of us to say "leave those idiots to their fate" but the government has a higher standard of care to adhere to.
 
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LaughingGravy

Well-Known Member
... but my sample that went through CVS/quest diagnostics was considered from someone unvaccinated, I do wonder what else might cause inaccurate reporting of vaccinations( my case is probably the exception)
One can only hope yours is one of few data exceptions.
How did you find out yours was considered as coming from someone unvaccinated, and we're you able to get it fixed?
I would be pretty vocal about making sure it was being recorded as a case with someone who was fully vaccinated.

I would also like to see a full breakdown of the breakthrough cases by which vaccine they got, presuming they were past the full immunization period and by how much time.
 

CJR

Well-Known Member
It will never be flat without herd immunity

Exactly.

Masks themselves work.

Unfortunately we have a large enough sample size that shows that human behavior in relation to masks makes them ineffective.

If we want a mask mandate do it right!

Everyone over the age of 2 in public has to wear a properly fitted N95 mask at all times or face significant fines.

Then masks will prove to be a truly effective tool in our fight against the virus.

Until then it’s just another half hearted attempt to pretend like we are trying when really we are continuing to fail.

This is correct. The problem is leaders are just tossing stuff out there without real enforcement and with little purpose other than to make it look like they're doing something. It's not going to work.

We, the vaccinated, can wear masks, but if we aren't the group testing positive to Covid and that group refuses to wear masks, they're going to spread it among themselves regardless. Especially without a blanket mask mandate where individual businesses are being asked to participate. That's basically a second honor system, and businesses, just like people, have shown mixed results. To get this under control, real firm leadership is needed all across the board. That group will not like it either.

For real progress to happen, we need to zero in on vaccines. The evidence is overwhelming that vaccines work and work well. We will have to treat people who are able to get the vaccine and don't different from those who are fully vaccinated. That's the only way people who have not yet received the vaccine will get one - and they know it, that's why they have fought so hard against vaccine passports.

A good example is my in-laws. They have refused to get the vaccine to this point using every excuse from "it's experimental" to "it causes fertility issues". My in-laws own property in Canada and have been itching to go back. Canada is allowing people to visit starting in August, but only if they're vaccinated. Finally, my in-laws are looking to get the vaccine so they can go to Canada. Providing real incentive works. There will still be some who refuse, but I believe we need more moves like what Canada is making.

Even Floridians will want to leave Florida at some point, if key cities like New York, Washington DC, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles require proof to do anything there, I think we'll see a real shift among those who remain to get vaccinated. Florida can refuse to participate all they want, but if those places that can, will, we'll probably see it impact people in Florida - just like it seems to be impacting my in-laws.

It will work and I believe that's the only thing that will. Masks mandates will just delay and drag this on until it resurfaces, if we don't change our effort. Yes, people are getting vaccinated daily, but not remotely to the extent at the numbers that they need to be. That's what we really need to focus on.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
That seems a bit pessimistic. India's cases have fallen to less than 10% of their peak and cumulatively they have had <32 million cases in a country of 1.4 billion people (2.2% of the population). Most people think the 32 million is vastly undercounted, but we're still talking single digit percetages of the population.

That's in an country with 6% fully vaccinated individuals. So even the Delta variant isnt' instantly spreading to every unvaccinated person.

India woefully under counted. An article and study today indicated they have under counted by over 10x


And it's not like they are done. A wave may have passed, but infection continues at a high rate, there will be more surges.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
As has the US for people visiting other countries, so particular diseases aren't brought back.
There are reasons that those from the US were able to travel to countries like Canada, the UK, most of Europe, and I believe Australia without showing vaccination records (and vice versa). Significant benefits to doing so. And the plan is to change that not only in the short term, but long term...indefinitely? Ok. We will see how that works out I guess.
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Could you clarify?
Threefold
1. Your response about the effectiveness/non-effectiveness. I’m not even delving into that. Others can argue about trying to get the reluctant to partake.

2. Public Perception is in two parts here. First the perception that segments of the public will take from being vaccinated and then told to wear masks? Tied into that, that smacks of punishing those who did get vaccinated. Sorta like trying to solve drunk driving by pulling over the sober drivers. Which is government’s MO for a variety of issues which delve into political and I’ll refrain from mentioning.

3. In a free society (or at least freer) public sentiment has to be marshaled/husbanded as a finite resource because it is. This isn’t as of yet a autocracy or dictatorship where public will is irrelevant. People can argue all they want till they are blue in the face about what should be done but outside of declaring marshal law and forcibly injecting people this will continue.

As you and I have discussed prior, this shouldn’t be political. The reality is it is. I don’t see that changing anytime soon and Covid is just another factor in the divide.
 

Disney Experience

Well-Known Member
One can only hope yours is one of few data exceptions.
How did you find out yours was considered as coming from someone unvaccinated, and we're you able to get it fixed?
I would be pretty vocal about making sure it was being recorded as a case with someone who was fully vaccinated.

I would also like to see a full breakdown of the breakthrough cases by which vaccine they got, presuming they were past the full immunization period and by how much time.
I literally could not get a test appointment unless I said I was unvaccinated in the CVS appointment website. I originally said I was vaccinated . I filled in the dates of vaccination , but it would not let me go on unless I changed it to not vaccinated. At the time I had 102.9 fever, chills, exhaustion, weakness, first days of symptoms so I do not remember what their error was other than I could not continue until I changed to never vaccinated. My second shot was within 9 months, but I am one of the first 15000 in the world vaccinated with Pfizer. My CDC vaccination card has my first shot with a lot number 10 ( and a letter suffix)
 
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Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
There are reasons that those from the US were able to travel to countries like Canada, the UK, most of Europe, and I believe Australia without showing vaccination records (and vice versa). Significant benefits to doing so. And the plan is to change that not only in the short term, but long term...indefinitely? Ok. We will see how that works out I guess.
The fact the Canada has made an app for people to upload their proof of vaccination makes me think it's staying for awhile. They wouldn't go to all the trouble to make something for a short term fix.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
This is correct. The problem is leaders are just tossing stuff out there without real enforcement and with little purpose other than to make it look like they're doing something. It's not going to work.

We, the vaccinated, can wear masks, but if we aren't the group testing positive to Covid and that group refuses to wear masks, they're going to spread it among themselves regardless. Especially without a blanket mask mandate where individual businesses are being asked to participate. That's basically a second honor system, and businesses, just like people, have shown mixed results. To get this under control, real firm leadership is needed all across the board. That group will not like it either.

For real progress to happen, we need to zero in on vaccines. The evidence is overwhelming that vaccines work and work well. We will have to treat people who are able to get the vaccine and don't different from those who are fully vaccinated. That's the only way people who have not yet received the vaccine will get one - and they know it, that's why they have fought so hard against vaccine passports.

A good example is my in-laws. They have refused to get the vaccine to this point using every excuse from "it's experimental" to "it causes fertility issues". My in-laws own property in Canada and have been itching to go back. Canada is allowing people to visit starting in August, but only if they're vaccinated. Finally, my in-laws are looking to get the vaccine so they can go to Canada. Providing real incentive works. There will still be some who refuse, but I believe we need more moves like what Canada is making.

Even Floridians will want to leave Florida at some point, if key cities like New York, Washington DC, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles require proof to do anything there, I think we'll see a real shift among those who remain to get vaccinated. Florida can refuse to participate all they want, but if those places that can, will, we'll probably see it impact people in Florida - just like it seems to be impacting my in-laws.

It will work and I believe that's the only thing that will. Masks mandates will just delay and drag this on until it resurfaces, if we don't change our effort. Yes, people are getting vaccinated daily, but not remotely to the extent at the numbers that they need to be. That's what we really need to focus on.

Unimpeeded Interstate travel is a right granted to all citizens through the constitution and only Congress can regulate it not states.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Threefold
1. Your response about the effectiveness/non-effectiveness. I’m not even delving into that. Others can argue about trying to get the reluctant to partake.

2. Public Perception is in two parts here. First the perception that segments of the public will take from being vaccinated and then told to wear masks? Tied into that, that smacks of punishing those who did get vaccinated. Sorta like trying to solve drunk driving by pulling over the sober drivers. Which is government’s MO for a variety of issues which delve into political and I’ll refrain from mentioning.

3. In a free society (or at least freer) public sentiment has to be marshaled/husbanded as a finite resource because it is. This isn’t as of yet a autocracy or dictatorship where public will is irrelevant. People can argue all they want till they are blue in the face about what should be done but outside of declaring marshal law and forcibly injecting people this will continue.

As you and I have discussed prior, this shouldn’t be political. The reality is it is. I don’t see that changing anytime soon and Covid is just another factor in the divide.
My post was responding to your suggestion that the new LA policy was “sink[ing] the credibility of the vaccine in the public’s eye”. Unless there is evidence to show that the public’s view of the vaccine has indeed been adversely affected by this move, I don’t think it’s fair to assume such a development, especially given that the policy is clearly not a comment on the vaccines.
 

mf1972

Well-Known Member
You aren’t unique in bad terrible people in office spreading lies and misinformation. We all have them. IMO it’s the main reason we can’t get vaccination rates up. Always going to have the percentage of anti that will never get it but the millions on the fence? It’s these people I blame.

Not being political, I’m really not. But people believe in their leaders and do listen.
i’m being too kind by saying this, but that lady is coo coo for cocoa puffs
 

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