Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Chip Chipperson]

YES! IT LITERALLY DOES! By orders of magnitude, it does!

The risk of cases for a 45 year old versus an 11 year old is 2x.

The risk of hospitalization for a 45 year old versus an 11 year old is 15x.

The risk of death for a 45 year old versus an 11 year old is 130x!


The people who are refusing to get vaccinated *and* refusing to wear masks have *never* worn masks. No anti-vax, anti-masker just decided to stop wearing a mask a week ago.

Well, they had to wear masks in stores, etc. when indoors in states that required it, so they DID wear them sometimes unless they only used curbside pickup and delivery for groceries, restaurants, etc. - or wanted to get kicked out/refused entry just to further their own victim complex (see Shroder, Rick).

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Good thing the vaccines do.

I don't think anyone is disputing that vaccines work.

Masks are what we use as an interim measure.

The issue is, when is too soon to simply drop mask requirements?

We're still in a transitional period. It's very flippant to just tell people to stay home if not comfortable. If someone isn't vaccinated yet, they still need to go grocery shopping. Now they have to potentially content with people who are both un-vaccinated and maskless because of an honour system.

WDW is a little different. It's not a necessity so personal choice is more applicable.

I get that people want some degree of normalcy once vaccinated, but there needs to be a balance of working together to keep everyone safe.

 

[Nickp1983]

Well, they had to wear masks in stores, etc. when indoors in states that required it, so they DID wear them sometimes unless they only used curbside pickup and delivery for groceries, restaurants, etc. - or wanted to get kicked out/refused entry just to further their own victim complex (see Shroder, Rick).

My state required them and hahahah. No. That wasn't the case. Many people went maskless and I never saw once in a year someone at Target, Publix, Wal Mart, Walgreens... what have you... demand they put one on.
The only places that happened was at a Healthcare setting

 

[AEfx]

Yes in places like WDW, people either wore them or were kicked out. But that really wasn't the case among most retailers.

I'm not sure where you live, but anti-masking/refusal was apparently a very regional thing. Up here in New England, we took (and still) take it very seriously and it simply was a non-issue - everyone wore masks. The first few weeks you would see people trying to sneak by, but that was over a year ago.

 

[Nickp1983]

I'm not sure where you live, but anti-masking/refusal was apparently a very regional thing. Up here in New England, we took (and still) take it very seriously and it simply was a non-issue - everyone wore masks. The first few weeks you would see people trying to sneak by, but that was over a year ago.

Carolinas. Outside of Healthcare mask wearing... it was almost the honor system. It was governor mandated. And retailers had to have signs up. But I never once saw anyone get approached to put a mask on if they weren't wearing it.

Wisconsin was very similar when I was up there a few times over the year.

 

[GoofGoof]

I dont think a lot of the vaccine hesitation is what people think it is. I'm going to stop there because whatever I say next may be considered poltical and I don't want to get banned. LOL

I think a lot of people have a lot of different reasons for not being vaccinated. Some of it is political, some of it is old school anti-vaxx stuff (around safety and long term impacts) and some is just apathy. It’s the 3rd group that is most easily reached and based on recent polling is the largest group left. That group will get us from 60% to 70% of adults eventually. Those are people who aren’t afraid of the vaccine and also aren’t opposed to it politically they just haven‘t gotten around to getting it. They don’t need convincing, just motivation to get in and get it done.

 

[Nickp1983]

I think a lot of people have a lot of different reasons for not being vaccinated. Some of it is political, some of it is old school anti-vaxx stuff (around safety and long term impacts) and some is just apathy. It’s the 3rd group that is most easily reached and based on recent polling is the largest group left. That group will get us from 60% to 70% of adults eventually. Those are people who aren’t afraid of the vaccine and also aren’t opposed to it politically they just haven‘t gotten around to getting it. They don’t need convincing, just motivation to get in and get it done.

I think the 3rd party has to do with an uneven message being relayed from our leaders over the past year. There has been a lot of contradictions and well... needless politics (I said it!) being used. They are all to blame.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I don't think anyone is disputing that vaccines work.

Masks are what we use as an interim measure.

The issue is, when is too soon to simply drop mask requirements?

We're still in a transitional period. It's very flippant to just tell people to stay home if not comfortable. If someone isn't vaccinated yet, they still need to go grocery shopping. Now they have to potentially content with people who are both un-vaccinated and maskless because of an honour system.

WDW is a little different. It's not a necessity so personal choice is more applicable.

I get that people want some degree of normalcy once vaccinated, but there needs to be a balance of working together to keep everyone safe.

Are you American?

 

[havoc315]

Not true at WDW or in the Walmart near me. Those unvaccinated people were all wearing masks 4 weeks ago because they had to. I am not opposed to Walmart’s decision to follow CDC guidelines and also to not want to be in the business of policing vaccination status. They did the right thing and said only fully vaccinated people can come into our stores without a mask. Maybe people lie, maybe people don’t. At least they bothered to try.

Can't blame any business for not wanting to voluntarily become a policeman. CDC/State/locality says "honor code" is good enough. If I were running a public facing business, that's the position I would therefore take. And if the various agencies and governments said that vaccine passports will be issued and businesses should check them, then I'd follow that guidance.

I'm on record that I believe we should have used vaccine passports as an intermediary step to encourage vaccination before simply ripping off all masks and social distancing. But I can't blame any business for not proactively voluntarily enforcing vaccination.
If my public facing business was in an area of high Covid transmission, I might continue to mandate masks if I couldn't easily verify vaccine status. If transmission was low and vaccination rate was high, I'd go with the "honor code" maskless.

 

[Epcotbob]

Why not punish those who aren't vaccinated and put in vaccine requirements to enter some businesses.

Businesses are free to do that if they so choose....they just don't want to turn customers away.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

I'm not sure where you live, but anti-masking/refusal was apparently a very regional thing. Up here in New England, we took (and still) take it very seriously and it simply was a non-issue - everyone wore masks. The first few weeks you would see people trying to sneak by, but that was over a year ago.

I find there's always one or two percent or so of people without a mask in places that require them. Most people seem to be okay with the rules. A lot of people are sharing that the honour system appears to be working, which is great, but I'm still a little cynical.

Stories of over-the-top anti maskers get a lot of airplay, so that definitely creates a sense of non-compliance that may be exaggerated.

 

[Nickp1983]

Alright. I'm saying it.

Masks most likely offered a degree of safety but are no where near as effective as what people think they are due to a variety of reasons. I still beleive the pushing of masks as a bullet proof vest... was because of the economy collapsing and it giving people perceived protection to go out.

The CDC was getting kick back because they were telling people to get vaccinated and then act like they haven't been. People need a motivator. People who were on the fence were saying there was no point in getting vaccinated if they still had to follow rules.

This science has been known. People vaccinated aren't likely to spread. Aren't likely to get sick. Just like outside transmission isn't likely.

But vaccine rates were high. So no need to rock the boat. Then they started to peak. Then trend down. RA RO (to quote scooby)

So what do you do to squeeze out another 5 to 10% of the adults?

You follow the science. You push for a highly effective form of protection (vaccines!) And use the elimination of a lesser form (masks) to hopefully fuel it.

There ya go

 

[mmascari]

The majority of people unvaccinated and not wearing masks now... . weren't wearing masks 4 weeks ago.

The people who are refusing to get vaccinated *and* refusing to wear masks have *never* worn masks. No anti-vax, anti-masker just decided to stop wearing a mask a week ago.

Both true. Four weeks ago, you could spot the easily and give them plenty of space. Yesterday, it's all a guess if someone is in that group or in the vaccinated group.

I'd take it a step further. People who never seemed to care about their health before... suddenly became very defensive about their health. It's been a very interesting year.

These things aren't a constant over the last year. Conditions change and what people care about is very dependent on other conditions.

At 3 cases/100K, people probably don't care at all.
At 10/100K, some definitely care more.
At 25/100K, even more.
At 50 or 100 or 150, even more still.
At 250/100K, hopefully everyone cares.

From the NY Times, my county is currently at 3/100K cases. The county only has indoor unvaccinated mandates along with school/transport/healthcare settings. Assuming we hold this level, and we should with 50% fully vaccinated and 60% one dose, by 5/28 we'll be at state only, and I think those all disappear then too. The states at 6, so not as low as the county. I feel pretty good about my 11 year old based on holding the 3 metric and not having any masks anywhere.

The country is at 9. Not feeling nearly as good about the 11 year old in enclosed spaces at 9.

Florida is at 15. Enough that I wouldn't want them in an enclosed space with unmasked unknown people.

Back when things were at 30, enclosed spaces with unmasked people were just avoid.

Further back when things over 300, we didn't take the 11 year old to stores at all.

The concerns people have are very dependent on the surrounding environment. What was a concern 2 months ago, today, and 2 months from now will all be different.

 

[havoc315]

We're still in a transitional period. It's very flippant to just tell people to stay home if not comfortable. If someone isn't vaccinated yet, they still need to go grocery shopping. Now they have to potentially content with people who are both un-vaccinated and maskless because of an honour system.

In 99% of cases, there is no excuse to not be vaccinated. It is true that kids under 12 are at lower risk even without vaccine.
For anyone over 12, vaccines are now readily available.

The problem with the honor code isn't really as simple as the danger to unvaccinated people:
There are a small percentage of people who can't get vaccinated due to immuno-compromise or other factors. Then there is the fact that even fully vaccinated people can still get infected, can still get symptoms, and in a small percentage of cases, still die.
Using the New York Yankees as a recent example -- 9 fully vaccinated Yankees / staff members were recently infected. 1 was symptomatic. (the other 8 are either asymptomatic or simply pre- symptomatic).

I'm not suggesting vaccinated people have any reason to panic. But it is still very true that the vaccines do not make someone invincible. A "super spreader" event will remain potentially dangerous if there are any unmasked infected spreaders in the crowd.
Take a crowded church with everyone singing... If there are 200 people exposed to 2 unvaccinated maskless superspreaders: If 100 people in the church are unvaccinated and 100 are full vaccinated with a mix of JNJ/Pfizer/Moderna-- Imagine the unvaccinated 100, 50 get infected. Of the vaccinated 100, 5-10 may still get infected. And 1-2 of those might become rather serious infections.
So the vaccinated group is still being put in non-insignificant danger from the unvaccinated maskless individual.

So the idea that maskless unvaccinated people are only putting themselves in danger is hogwash. It's true that the risk to vaccinated people is greatly significantly reduced. In fact, in non-super spreader environments, I would say the risk to a vaccinated person become negligible, insignificant. But in a "super spreader environment," there is still a risk to vaccinated people from maskless unvaccinated people.

 

[GoofGoof]

Alright. I'm saying it.

Masks most likely offered a degree of safety but are no where near as effective as what people think they are due to a variety of reasons. I still beleive the pushing of masks as a bullet proof vest... was because of the economy collapsing and it giving people perceived protection to go out.

The CDC was getting kick back because they were telling people to get vaccinated and then act like they haven't been. People need a motivator. People who were on the fence were saying there was no point in getting vaccinated if they still had to follow rules.

This science has been known. People vaccinated aren't likely to spread. Aren't likely to get sick. Just like outside transmission isn't likely.

But vaccine rates were high. So no need to rock the boat. Then they started to peak. Then trend down. RA RO (to quote scooby)

So what do you do to squeeze out another 5 to 10% of the adults?

You follow the science. You push for a highly effective form of protection (vaccines!) And use the elimination of a lesser form (masks) to hopefully fuel it.

There ya go

Exactly. Polling shows the extra 10%+ are out there they just need to be properly motivated. Even though the honor system is not going to be 100% followed I believe the majority of people want to do the right thing and want to follow the rules so even if it’s just the honor system people don’t want to know they are constantly breaking the rules and may get called out for it.

 

[havoc315]

Alright. I'm saying it.

Masks most likely offered a degree of safety but are no where near as effective as what people think they are due to a variety of reasons. I still beleive the pushing of masks as a bullet proof vest... was because of the economy collapsing and it giving people perceived protection to go out.

Bullet proof vest: No.

But the evidence is emerging that masks have been incredibly effective. Infection from a masked individual to another masked individual has been very rare.

Most of the spread in the last 6 months has been "living room spread" -- most of the spread has been from people engaging in small indoor gatherings without masks.

 

[Nickp1983]

The concerns people have are very dependent on the surrounding environment. What was a concern 2 months ago, today, and 2 months from now will all be different.

Oh totally. But I'm talking about personal health in general. It's hard for me to take a person seriously when they are crying about their health risk of covid when for years they ate terribly and never exercised... let alone cant walk up a flight of stairs without being out of breath.

I'll just be the jackass here. I had hoped covid would get people to realize how bad our health has gotten in this country in terms of obesity. But I think we haven't learned out lesson.

 

[havoc315]

Exactly. Polling shows the extra 10%+ are out there they just need to be properly motivated. Even though the honor system is not going to be 100% followed I believe the majority of people want to do the right thing and want to follow the rules so even if it’s just the honor system people don’t want to know they are constantly breaking the rules and may get called out for it.

Honor system has zero chance of working. Only a small percentage of unvaccinated people will voluntarily keep wearing masks.
Let's think about the crowds refusing vaccine... for the most part, those people:

1 -- CDC says "wear masks" -- That crowd responds with fervent opposition but mostly complies, "because it's a mandate.. because they have no choice"
2 -- CDC says "you should get a vaccine" -- "Freedom stuff.... don't trust government, since you're not making me get a vaccine, I'm not going to do it!"
3 -- CDC says, "if you have chosen not to get a vaccine, then you really should wear a mask, but we won't enforce it.. so it's really your choice... " --- "freedom stuff.... don't trust you, I'm rejecting your advice to get a vaccine, I only was wearing a mask because I had to, now that it's effectively voluntary, why should I take the advice to wear the mask?!??? "

 

[Nickp1983]

This feels like the safety meeting for the new Radioactive Man and Fallout Boy movie.

 

[GoofGoof]

Honor system has zero chance of working. Only a small percentage of unvaccinated people will voluntarily keep wearing masks.
Let's think about the crowds refusing vaccine... for the most part, those people:

1 -- CDC says "wear masks" -- That crowd responds with fervent opposition but mostly complies, "because it's a mandate.. because they have no choice"
2 -- CDC says "you should get a vaccine" -- "Freedom stuff.... don't trust government, since you're not making me get a vaccine, I'm not going to do it!"
3 -- CDC says, "if you have chosen not to get a vaccine, then you really should wear a mask, but we won't enforce it.. so it's really your choice... " --- "freedom stuff.... don't trust you, I'm rejecting your advice to get a vaccine, I only was wearing a mask because I had to, now that it's effectively voluntary, why should I take the advice to wear the mask?!??? "

We can agree to disagree. I don’t believe that the 39.8% of adults who are currently unvaccinated are all opposed to restrictions and also all opposed to the vaccine. That label may apply to some but certainly not all of them. I haven’t written off the vaccine process yet. We have more people still to go.