Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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DisneyFan32

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
I actually think an awful lot of vaccinated people will start ignoring the rules by fall. Disney can maintain the policy, but in general, I think it's going to be very hard to keep a hard line on it.
Don't ya think there will be a MASSIVE wave or spike by fall/winter soon if there isn't 80%-85% people got vaccinated by then so we will have do mask and social distancing for years? Even people will or not going get vaccinated, then USA will may never go back to normal by this fall/winter that make cause major spikes / waves in colder fall and winter months soon. Anti vaxxs NEEDs to get vaccinating and listen to rules by Biden's orders.
"But the U.S. may head into the colder fall and winter months with more lingering vulnerability to outbreaks than a country like Israel, where a full 80 percent of adults have already been vaccinated. (In line with the Yahoo News/YouGov poll, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that 55.4 percent of U.S. adults have been vaccinated.)"
^ What does this means may for outbreaks for colder fall and winter months, is masks and social distancing is gonna stay here for this colder fall and winter months in end of the year? I'm worried about that one.
We need people wash their hands, mask up, social distancing, get vaccinated then we will getting back to normal sooner than that horrible predictions as doom and groomed. Ugh.
 
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drizgirl

Well-Known Member
Don't ya think there will be a MASSIVE wave or spike by fall/winter soon if there isn't 80%-85% people got vaccinated by then so we will have do mask and social distancing for years? Even people will or not going get vaccinated, then USA will may never go back to normal by this fall/winter that make cause major spikes / waves in colder fall and winter months soon. Anti vaxxs NEEDs to get vaccinating and listen to rules by Biden's orders.
"But the U.S. may head into the colder fall and winter months with more lingering vulnerability to outbreaks than a country like Israel, where a full 80 percent of adults have already been vaccinated. (In line with the Yahoo News/YouGov poll, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that 55.4 percent of U.S. adults have been vaccinated.)"
^ What does this means may for outbreaks for colder fall and winter months, is masks and social distancing is gonna stay here for this colder fall and winter months in end of the year? I'm worried about that one.
We need people wash their hands, mask up, social distancing, get vaccinated then we will getting back to normal sooner than that horrible predictions as doom and groomed. Ugh.
Argue the spike all you want. Vaccinated people staying masked will not stop that spike.

The spike itself will likely push a bunch more to get vaccinated.
 

mickeymiss

Well-Known Member
From the beginning there has been debate about whether or not there is actual asymptomatoc spread or it is actually presymptomatic or low symptomatic. From a scientific standpoint of being rigorous, thorough and accurate it is important. From a public health policy perspective it is less important because either way people do not feel sick or recognize that they are sick so they are engaging in activities and spreading the virus.

My local Publix has refreshed their graphics a couple of times in the past year. They’d be gone one day and back on my next visit.
Purely anecdotal but my husband's coworker got covid from his wife who got it from one of her patients that was asymptomatic at the time. They were both wearing masks too and the wife was also wearing a face shield. I hope there's more to it than that because it scared me at the time.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
??? I never said a non vaccinated person has a 100% chance of getting Covid.

I said a vaccine does not give 100% immunity. Thus, 90% of the population vaccinated with a vaccine that gives 80% immunity has the same community effect as 80% of the population given a vaccine that gives 90% immunity.
Doesn’t mean every unvaccinated person will get covid. But if you have a vaccine that confers only 50% immunity, and you give it to 100% of the population, while you’ll reduce cases significantly, you won’t achieve herd immunity.
71% effective does not mean 39% will get the virus. Let’s say this is a horrible virus and in a situation your studying 20% of non vaccinated people get the virus. If that was the case than 20% x (1-71%) = 5% of vaccinated people will get infected, not 39%.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Purely anecdotal but my husband's coworker got covid from his wife who got it from one of her patients that was asymptomatic at the time. They were both wearing masks too and the wife was also wearing a face shield. I hope there's more to it than that because it scared me at the time.

Was the patient asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic?
 

mickeymiss

Well-Known Member
I read a study last year that household contacts have a ~20% chance of catching covid so it must be far less in the community. I don't know why we aren't seeing more reports like this to help measure risk. Everything seems to be out of an abundance of caution rather than a documented risk. I'm not arguing whether that's right or wrong. It certainly was correct in the beginning.

I know the benefit of getting back to normal outweighs anything for theme parks but it'd be strange for Disneyland to spend so much time/money setting up precautions only to scrap them in a month. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 

mickeymiss

Well-Known Member
Was the patient asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic?
I'm not sure. It still would come as a surprise for me if they were pre-symptomatic given the precautions being used and it being a fairly minimal contact situation. That's why I hope there's more to the story. We know people who have avoided the illness living in the same house as a very sick person. This virus is really hard to pin down.
 

DisneyFan32

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Argue the spike all you want. Vaccinated people staying masked will not stop that spike.

The spike itself will likely push a bunch more to get vaccinated.
By October 2021, November 2021, December 2021, January 2022, February 2022 as we will going back to normal with no masks and social distancing as people are still getting vaccinated by then?
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member


With the exception of the choir practice which was an absolute worst-case scenario and due to the timing in the pandemic may have had multiple people infected beforehand, none of those examples was a single event where half of the attendees were infected at the event.

I don't dispute the original point you were making regarding vaccinated people still being able to be infected but at a much lower rate. Given the same risk conditions, somebody who is fully vaccinated will have roughly 10% of the chance to become infected, roughly 5% of the chance to have a serious illness as a result of infection (compared to their prior risk) and, from early data 1% or less of the chance to die from a COVID infection.

If we assume that 30% of Americans were infected over the first year (combining known cases with estimated multiple of undiscovered infections of 2-3x), given the same conditions, if somebody was fully vaccinated and traveled back in time to March 2020, they would have had a 3% chance of being infected by now.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
71% effective does not mean 39% will get the virus. Let’s say this is a horrible virus and in a situation your studying 20% of non vaccinated people get the virus. If that was the case than 20% x (1-71%) = 5% of vaccinated people will get infected, not 39%.

??? I never said it meant that 39% (or 29%) would get the virus.

I’m talking about level of immunity.

For herd immunity, (where nearly 0 people get the virus), you need community immunity of ~80%.

If 100% of the population gets a vaccine that confers 71% immunity — you likely don’t reach herd immunity. It doesn’t mean 29% will get infected.
It does mean you don’t reach herd immunity. (With herd immunity, infection rate ~0 (or 0.0001). Without herd immunity, infection rate could still go very low... but not 0).
 

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
By October 2021, November 2021, December 2021, January 2022, February 2022 as we will going back to normal with no masks and social distancing as people are still getting vaccinated by then?
My opinion is that case numbers should be low enough by the fall to use targeted containment strategies. By the end of this past week, I've gone from doubting herd immunity is possible to hopeful that it will come close because I think that young people will get vaccinated at a high rate and do not want to go through lockdowns again. We'll see what happens over the next 8 weeks.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
With the exception of the choir practice which was an absolute worst-case scenario and due to the timing in the pandemic may have had multiple people infected beforehand, none of those examples was a single event where half of the attendees were infected at the event.

I don't dispute the original point you were making regarding vaccinated people still being able to be infected but at a much lower rate. Given the same risk conditions, somebody who is fully vaccinated will have roughly 10% of the chance to become infected, roughly 5% of the chance to have a serious illness as a result of infection (compared to their prior risk) and, from early data 1% or less of the chance to die from a COVID infection.

If we assume that 30% of Americans were infected over the first year (combining known cases with estimated multiple of undiscovered infections of 2-3x), given the same conditions, if somebody was fully vaccinated and traveled back in time to March 2020, they would have had a 3% chance of being infected by now.

Honestly, no clue what you’re trying to argue.
Fact is, there are high risk scenarios. There are low risk scenarios, whether vaccinated or not.

Vaccines:
Turn low risk scenarios into minuscule nearly non-existent risk. (So no masks)
Turn moderate risk scenarios into very low risk. (So safely remove the mask)
Turn high risk scenarios into lower risk, but potentially still risky enough that a mask/mitigation is wise.

Though an important caveat — if we squash the disease through vaccine and temporary mitigation, then there no longer are any high risk situations. The choir practice is no longer high risk if there is virtually no chance that anybody there is infected. So at that point, don’t need masks anywhere.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
Are we now saying people can’t wear a mask outside once they are vaccinated unless in a large crowd? Is Biden actually saying everyone should still wear a mask outside at all times? He said the opposite in a speech and pointed to the CDC guidelines. I don’t get at all why anyone cares. My mom is fully vaccinated and came to my house today and wore a mask part of the time even though we were outside. What harm is done by wearing a mask when not technically required? Seems like a really strange thing to get upset over.

For Biden I guess as a politician he must be doing really well when the best people can come up with to criticize you for is wearing a mask when you technically don’t need to.
I missed a page yesterday with this. When out doing costume work for a show, I was talking with the owner of the shop. Both of us agreed we need to all meet in the middle more. Someone uncomfortable and wants masks even if vaccinated? Wear the darn mask. Don't scold them. Vaccinated people indoors not masking? Don't scold them because you are uncomfortable with the idea. The whole time here some of us have hated masks for legit reasons, but still comply. If people weren't so bent on having their way and only their way we could've dealt different from the start.

We need to stop judging so much right now. Be less divided. Roll up your sleeve and take the shot unless legitimately medically excused. Be willing to talk and listen about issues. Why people are still feeling this is a personal only thing I don't get it. It's global and working together makes a difference.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
R naught is not R and it's also not Rt. Those are three representations of R that ID experts use to represent different things, that regular people, as you just demonstrated, are using, interchangeably. It's the Rt that has dropped below 1 at various points of the pandemic not R naught. That's why the website that was so popular was called rt.live. What Israel is doing is tracking their Rt but calling it R. When they say R is .59, they mean Rt. The snapshot observed over a specific period of time (they use the last 10 days). However, if Rt stays low, without mitigation, it infers that R has been effectively lowered, but we don't know what R can be expected for different levels of vaccination, and we're not going to know until the calculations are done later.

It also doesn't help that within ID, people do use R naught and R interchangeably. But there is a movement to use R naught strictly for the base / initial state, when 100% of a population is susceptible to a virus. And use R for a vaccinated / immune population. So yes, Israel absolutely has Rt <1, and it's likely they also have R<1. Some people will then say R naught is <1 and others will say R naught remains 5.7 and each of the variants has their own unique number.

If there is a communication failure it's not the 60/80%. It's not explaining the effect natural immunity would have on the vax level. There's a reason many industries don't let the techies talk to the customers, and IMO, that's what has been going on here. Herd Immunity is a calculable number (1–1/R0, so if R0=5.7 it's ~82.4%) It is a valid and proven mathematical formula. So the experts are relying on that for the answer because it's the thing most likely to give the correct answer. Plus, it's the one that future generations will need to maintain as we die off, and our natural immunity stops factoring in. The disconnect is because of the natural immunity. Regular people are factoring it in, and the experts aren't differentiating. The problem with saying "only need 60% vax to reach herd immunity" is that it will absolutely NOT be true in Australia, Iceland, South Korea, New Zealand, etc. Nor will it be true for Hawaii vs FL. You figure out how to tell some states they need 60% because they did so bad at avoiding community spread, but other states, you did so well avoiding infection, that your "reward" is that you need 80% or higher. It's not going to happen, they'll just say 80. Whatever we learn from Israel and the US is only valid for areas that have experienced similar infection rates. How many ticks below those previously listed countries the US ends up to the same effect, will tell us more about how many people were really infected here. The world is also watching and wanting to apply it to their own country, so that is also another element for consideration of what number to publicly say. In our case, Israel and the US are close enough 99,000/million population for us, 91,000/million population for them. But with Australia's 1158/million and NZ 552/million... vax levels are going to have to look a lot different.

I am not going to get into a back and forth with you about this, but I am putting this out there now because it demonstrates the misunderstandings that have arose and why ID folks recognize that they need a better defined terminology, like the naming of variants. What worked in papers isn't working for the rest of us.
Very good explanation. I'd say that true herd immunity is not possible to reach because, regardless of any other factor, there is a pretty large percentage of the population which can't be vaccinated because the vaccines haven't been approved for their age yet.

The realistic goal is "herd low and steady" with the overwhelming majority or infections being in low risk people. If we assume the 82.4% number is the necessary goal for true herd immunity, the only way for that to happen is for the virus rip through the unvaccinated population quickly. With the exception of countries who will physically force people to get vaccinated, very few countries will get to 91.6% vaccinated (taking into account the vaccines are ~90% effective preventing infection).
 

mickeymiss

Well-Known Member
There are some people who think maybe masks should be worn for flu season seeing as flu poses a much higher risk to children and the vaccine is famously not very effective. Where do we draw the line on which respiratory infection warrants mitigation? There are a lot of sicknesses that are serious to certain groups of people. I don't have an opinion on this yet but I will say that I enjoyed not getting sick this year and last 😇🥳

I'm still wondering why flu cases dropped. Does this mean masks protect us from the flu but not covid? Nursing homes have had outbreaks despite staff being required to wear masks. Do masks work? This is what I'd like to see some data on.
 

GhostHost1000

Premium Member
I actually think an awful lot of vaccinated people will start ignoring the rules by fall. Disney can maintain the policy, but in general, I think it's going to be very hard to keep a hard line on it.
If Disney tries to hold restrictions tight when people are done with them they will begin to see a decline (or no increase) in guests even if capacity is increase
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
The below Yahoo article echoes what CDC data is telling us - there's a downward trend in vaccines administered.

View attachment 553952

Orange County Major Jerry Demings announced that all mask mandates would be lifted when 70% of local residents age 16+ receive their first dose, and/or the county's 14-day rolling positivity rate drops to 5% or below. He also stated that this had been discussed with park operators.

My interpretation is that Demings and Disney believe it will be nearly impossible to achieve an 85% vaccination rate in the United States. :(

All signs point to WDW returning to near-normal before the federal government recommends it. :(


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New Yahoo News/YouGov COVID poll: The U.S. is about to run out of adults who are eager to get vaccinated

Andrew Romano
·West Coast Correspondent
Sat, May 1, 2021, 10:49 AM

The U.S. is about to run out of adults who are ready and willing to get vaccinated against COVID-19, according to a new Yahoo News/YouGov poll.

The survey of 1,558 Americans 18 or older, which was conducted from April 27 to April 29, found that while the number who say they have already been vaccinated (57 percent) has continued to climb in recent weeks, just 6 percent now say they have not yet been vaccinated but plan to get a shot “as soon as it is available to me.”

That’s down from 35 percent in February and 17 percent earlier in April.

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At the same time, the share of adults who say they are unsure (7 percent), are waiting to see “what happens to others before deciding” (10 percent) or will “never” get vaccinated (20 percent) has not budged.

The implication is stark: Unless many of the unvaccinated Americans who have been saying for months that they’re waiting or unsure have a sudden change of heart, fewer than 65 percent of U.S. adults are likely to be inoculated against COVID-19 this spring — far short of the level experts say is required for the kind of lasting population-wide protection known as herd immunity.

Reaching that threshold — the point when an estimated 80 percent of all Americans regardless of age have been vaccinated and the coronavirus runs out of potential hosts — would then require an additional 96 million U.S. residents to be vaccinated, a process that could presumably begin when regulators approve the COVID vaccines for use in children.

The only problem? There are just 73 million minors in the entire country, and nowhere near all of them will be vaccinated.

Herd immunity through vaccination, in other words, seems almost certain to elude the U.S. — an outcome that has become increasingly plausible in recent weeks as vaccine supply outstrips demand and the average number of daily doses administered starts to slip.

This doesn’t mean the pandemic will never subside in the U.S. The immunity induced by prior infection is also powerful (if less so) and tens of millions of Americans have already been infected, further limiting the virus’s opportunities for transmission. In the poll, 44 percent of respondents say America has gotten past the worst of the pandemic, and they’re probably correct. Just half that number (22 percent) say the worst is yet to come.

But the U.S. may head into the colder fall and winter months with more lingering vulnerability to outbreaks than a country like Israel, where a full 80 percent of adults have already been vaccinated. (In line with the Yahoo News/YouGov poll, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that 55.4 percent of U.S. adults have been vaccinated.)

“The summer is here and people are outside and nobody seems like they’re dying every day,” explains Yahoo News Medical Contributor Dr. Kavita Patel, a Brookings Institution health scholar and former Obama administration official. “People think, ‘Right. I’m done. I don’t need to get vaccinated.’ So we’re probably going to hit 60 to 65 percent [vaccinated] and have to get used to a couple hundred COVID deaths a day. That’s the price we’re going to have to pay.”

The Yahoo News/YouGov poll hints at which communities could have lower levels of vaccination and thus higher risk. While 73 percent of Democrats say they’ve already been vaccinated and another 7 percent say they plan to get a shot as soon as possible, just 56 percent and 4 percent of Republicans, respectively, say the same — a potential 20-point immunity gap. The gap between Joe Biden voters (83 percent plus 6 percent) and Donald Trump voters (57 percent plus 3 percent) is even larger.

The lower you are on the income ladder, the less likely you are to be vaccinated, with the number of vaccinated (74 percent) or eager (5 percent) Americans making $100,000 or more per year far exceeding the same numbers (49 percent and 7 percent) among those making less than $50,000. And while efforts to overcome access issues and historical distrust in Black communities have helped, Black Americans continue to rank among the least likely to say they have already been vaccinated (50 percent) and the likeliest to say they will “never” get jabbed (24 percent).


The CDC’s decision last month to pause the Johnson & Johnson vaccine while officials investigated a handful of “extremely rare” blood clotting incidents — and then to resume its use after the risk was confirmed to be vanishingly small and limited to women ages 18 to 48 — has not improved the situation. Although most Americans (67 percent) say pausing was the right decision, just 47 percent say unpausing was wise, and the public is now divided over whether the J&J vaccine itself is safe (44 percent) or unsafe (36 percent) as a result. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines do not have the same perception problem: 65 percent of Americans consider them safe, with a full 44 percent and 40 percent, respectively, saying they’re “very safe.” Just 18 percent say the same about J&J.

This suspicion is especially detrimental because the single-dose, refrigeratable Johnson & Johnson vaccine is well suited for reaching underserved communities. Just 27 percent of Americans who remain hesitant (either waiting to see or unsure) now say the J&J vaccine is safe, while a full 43 percent of these hesitant Americans say it’s unsafe. Again, hesitant Americans do not harbor the same fears about Pfizer (51 percent safe vs. 14 percent unsafe) or Moderna (49 percent safe vs. 13 percent unsafe).

On the bright side, broader fears about COVID-19 continue to wane. While a majority of Americans (57 percent) continue to be very or somewhat worried about the virus, that number is the lowest in any Yahoo News/YouGov poll since early March 2020 — the start of the pandemic in the U.S.

Likewise, the share of Americans who say they wore a mask always or most of the time this past week (72 percent) is at its lowest level since July 2020, and less than half (48 percent) now say they always wear a mask outside their home, down from 55 percent in early April.

But even those figures carry with them a note of caution. While 54 percent of Americans who’ve had at least one vaccine shot continue to “always” mask up in public, just 41 percent of unvaccinated Americans say they do the same.

I would be willing to bet a lot at even money that there is zero chance the US reaches an 85% vaccination rate. I doubt even a place like California will get that kind of acceptance.

It's probably maybe 2 to 1 odds that Orange County will reach 70% of adults. The Broward Mayor set the goal at 65% and I don't think that is very likely anytime soon and based on those polls, Broward should be a place where vaccine acceptance is very high.

I'd be curious to see the complete demographics of the samples in these polls including age. Based upon actual vaccination data it seems to me that they are way under sampling people under 40 years old. Real demand for people under 40, regardless of any other categorization, appears to be incredibly soft.

In my opinion, the only way to address this demand issue is with some serious financial incentives. They should have made the last stimulus payment at least partially contingent on getting fully vaccinated.

The problem with doing something at this point is you'd have to include people who were already vaccinated and to offer enough (I don't think less than $1,000 would do it for motivation), would be a $300 billion dollar cost.
 

Flugell

Well-Known Member
I’ve just had a really odd idea! I presume that in the USA your vaccinations are free? If that is the case then let the people who are not vaccinated THROUGH CHOICE donate their vaccines to another country- probably India at the moment. Then if they change their mind they can still have a vaccine but have to pay for it. Obviously not too much but enough to make them think twice. The vaccine hesitant could lose their right to a vaccination 3 months after their age group opened up, with the doses again being donated. As before they could stlii have a dose but would have to pay for it. No idea whether this would be an incentive or disincentive but would welcome thoughts. As I said an odd idea!
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
There are some people who think maybe masks should be worn for flu season seeing as flu poses a much higher risk to children and the vaccine is famously not very effective. Where do we draw the line on which respiratory infection warrants mitigation? There are a lot of sicknesses that are serious to certain groups of people. I don't have an opinion on this yet but I will say that I enjoyed not getting sick this year and last 😇🥳

I'm still wondering why flu cases dropped. Does this mean masks protect us from the flu but not covid? Nursing homes have had outbreaks despite staff being required to wear masks. Do masks work? This is what I'd like to see some data on.
Now I might not be up to date on numbers as this was a few weeks ago I checked, but pure pediatric deaths for flu on average and covid were similar. Two things that stood out. Pediatric deaths for flu were lower than I expected and covid deaths (particularly in Texas) were higher than I assumed.

Masks do work when worn properly. We're human though and make mistakes. Having an aunt who was in a LTC facility a year ago with an outbreak I see how it happened. If you think all nurses follow rules, you're kidding yourself. I say this with love an appreciation for nurses too. Humans make mistakes.
 
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