Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[havoc315]

It's probably not that simple. When the ship is in State waters, I assume that Florida law applies. I'd guess that the EO could apply until the ship exists Florida jurisdiction. I think that was the concept with the gambling cruises that would go offshore a few miles before land based casinos were allowed in FL.

I'm not sure how a port is governed with respect to Federal vs. State law. A State can't pass a law that says you don't need photo ID to board an aircraft but apparently they can require you to wear a mask in an airport.

Florida has no significant jurisdiction over the surrounding waters — that’s Federal (why we have the Coast Guard).

Ports involve overlapping jurisdiction between Federal authorities, State, application of International and Maritime law.
A governor can’t just step in with an EO.

Where the governor could try (and likely fail) to claim authority is on the argument that DCL has offices in Florida. And since they have offices in Florida, they can try to dictate conditions on DCL operations. But that argument will fail — Governor can’t just go disrupt interstate commerce with an EO.

The whole claim that he will apply the passport ban to cruise lines is empty virtue signaling.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Just stop please. Painting with broad brushes doesn't help. My friends are in their 50s and hardly the partying type. Again not all groups are eligible yet. Are there younger ones misbehaving? Sure but at this point it stands... not all are eligible for vaccines yet. People have to work and go out for groceries. The family I know the 50 something matriarch got it first, not the adult kids who don't even live with them. Let's not be judgmental yet or trying to downplay how contagious this is yet.

Nobody is saying that older people aren't getting COVID, just that the majority seem to be younger people nowadays. Here is the last 2 weeks for Florida:

The average age is now 35 for cases, not in the 50's or 60's like it was earlier.

 

[havoc315]

The article I posted described the ports as a combo of Federal and State/Local authority. As long as a ship is in port in FL it has to comply with FL state law, when in International waters that‘s not an issue. The flag a ship flies doesn‘t make it exempt from following local laws when in port. That being said, the Governor’s order is likely illegal overall for any business so it would be illegal for cruise ports too.

Not exactly. State authorities do have some limited jurisdiction. The degree is based on international law and maritime law. For example, state wage laws don’t apply for the hours the ship is in port.

Port governance (and the nearby waters) is actually a complex web of jurisdiction.

 

[sullyinMT]

Florida has no significant jurisdiction over the surrounding waters — that’s Federal (why we have the Coast Guard).

Ports involve overlapping jurisdiction between Federal authorities, State, application of International and Maritime law.
A governor can’t just step in with an EO.

Where the governor could try (and likely fail) to claim authority is on the argument that DCL has offices in Florida. And since they have offices in Florida, they can try to dictate conditions on DCL operations. But that argument will fail — Governor can’t just go disrupt interstate commerce with an EO.

The whole claim that he will apply the passport ban to cruise lines is empty virtue signaling.

NCL has already said they intend to mandate vaccines until November. Royal Caribbean has all but outright stated similar intent (albeit with a youth testing caveat). Those two lines alone provide a huge economic benefit to the state. In addition, I would be shocked at this point if Disney and Carnival didn't follow at least Royal's lead IF they were to receive the ok to proceed (ok, nothing Carnival does shocks me). No way the court of public opinion wouldn't see caving on the EO with spin that it's an international requirement or something. FL won't allow surrounding ports, as far as Galveston, to gain a foothold into their massive market share if they can help it. The posturing on this one really is bizarre to me.

 

[Chi84]

The article I posted described the ports as a combo of Federal and State/Local authority. As long as a ship is in port in FL it has to comply with FL state law, when in International waters that‘s not an issue. The flag a ship flies doesn‘t make it exempt from following local laws when in port. That being said, the Governor’s order is likely illegal overall for any business so it would be illegal for cruise ports too.

The article you quoted also says, "Dawn Myers, a partner with the government and regulatory team at [a Miami-based law firm] last week said DeSantis likely has no authority under interstate law, International law or maritime law to bar cruise lines from requiring vaccinations unless cruise ships were merely traveling from one Florida port to another." If you read the EO, you will find that it is specific in mentioning the flow of commerce within the State. If his order impacts more than that, it is overly broad. (Which it is anyway, since there's no emergency need to bar vaccine passports.)

 

[zurj]

The median case age for yesterday was 35. With the vast majority of 65+ vaccinated and more and more becoming fully vaccinated every day, the daily "numbers" don't really matter that much any more.

Would it be better if they were lower? Sure. However, the people catching COVID at this point have elected to take the risk of getting it with their chosen activities and every day they are less and less likely to cause a chain of events that leads to a 75 year old dying.

This does not fit the narrative, comrade.

 

[correcaminos]

Nobody is saying that older people aren't getting COVID, just that the majority seem to be younger people nowadays. Here is the last 2 weeks for Florida:

View attachment 548646

The average age is now 35 for cases, not in the 50's or 60's like it was earlier.

First, not sure why you think I'm saying average age for cases is not coming down. Never said that at all as we all know it is. Second, their comment was in direct reply to mine which was rather specific. Not a generalization. Was saying in many areas not all can get vaccinated yet. Also doesn't mean the younger ones are out partying either. Those are comments I was replying too. Yes, the average age is down but to minimize ease of spread by saying it's partiers. That is what I took objection to.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

First, not sure why you think I'm saying average age for cases is not coming down. Never said that at all as we all know it is. Second, their comment was in direct reply to mine which was rather specific. Not a generalization. Was saying in many areas not all can get vaccinated yet. Also doesn't mean the younger ones are out partying either. Those are comments I was replying too. Yes, the average age is down but to minimize ease of spread by saying it's partiers. That is what I took objection to.

Not sure why you would take exception to the partiers comment, as we saw tons of video evidence of young people partying all over many states during spring break without any masks or social distancing at all, and they no doubt went back home with many of them already infected, and then spread it to many others. I cannot see how you can object to those facts, or do you not agree with it at all that young people on spring break are a big reason for the recent spike in younger people?? If that isn't the cause, then what do you think is causing this latest rise in cases?

 

[Patcheslee]

As far as the EO, why hasn't the legislature addressed it? Do they support the EO?

 

[Chi84]

As far as the EO, why hasn't the legislature addressed it? Do they support the EO?

The only thing the legislature could do is propose a state law covering vaccine passports. I haven’t seen any reports of that, but I really haven’t looked for it.

 

[DisneyCane]

As far as the EO, why hasn't the legislature addressed it? Do they support the EO?

As far as I can tell, in order to address it they'd have to create a whole new section in the Florida statutes. As far as I can tell there is nothing that remotely addresses customers being required to disclose health care records to be served by a business.

It would have to be very carefully written to specifically allow schools to require it and certain employers.

The only part of the EO for which the authority currently exists is the part where no Government entity will verify vaccination status. As I've said before, to have authority, an EO must direct enforcement of existing laws.

Honestly, from my reading of the FL statutes, a strong case could be made that none of the COVID related emergency orders (from the Governor, County or Municipal official) are legal in FL.

There is a section for public health emergencies and it is clear that the legislative intent was that those statutes, and not the State of Emergency statutes, would apply in this type of circumstance. Specific authority is designated to the "State Health Official," not the Governor or any other official.

 

[danlb_2000]

I expect that the emergency will be ended in FL once there is enough vaccine for all who want it. I'd expect an order that ends all local emergencies as well which would end all County measures and restrictions.

Does the end of the emergency also end the EO about vaccine passports?

 

[danlb_2000]

The article I posted described the ports as a combo of Federal and State/Local authority. As long as a ship is in port in FL it has to comply with FL state law, when in International waters that‘s not an issue. The flag a ship flies doesn‘t make it exempt from following local laws when in port. That being said, the Governor’s order is likely illegal overall for any business so it would be illegal for cruise ports too.

So the cruise line could say you don't need proof of vaccination to get on the ship, but once in international waters you are confined to your cabin if you don't prove you are vaccinated.

 

[DisneyCane]

Does the end of the emergency also end the EO about vaccine passports?

I think it should because it states that the authority comes from the Florida Emergency Management act. Of course, there's nothing to prevent the issuance of a new Executive Order specifically prohibiting Government entities from verifying vaccination records which is not specifically related to COVID.

 

[Chi84]

So the cruise line could say you don't need proof of vaccination to get on the ship, but once in international waters you are confined to your cabin if you don't prove you are vaccinated.

That's why Florida law can't control what happens on cruise ships. I don't see any way the EO could apply to cruises, and the underlying rationale for emergency action (preventing the creation of two classes of citizens and ensuring the free flow of commerce within the state) is weak.

 

[GhostHost1000]

With people like me over 2 1/2 days of post covid vaccine pfizer shot number 2 having a fever in the 101’s and feeling completely awful and drained and then seeing the news on JnJ (which I still think there’s more than we know about if only 6 people had issues) I’m concerned about people getting the shot who were maybe on the fence not getting one now.

I’m also concerned if we ever had to get another shot or one each year many won’t do it again who had side effects as well especially if the driver for getting the shot is well we hope this goes away and we hope we can get back to normal but for those that get a shot continue to stay away from people and wear a mask even tho places like texas who did away with masks are in the top 10 states or were

I still feel like there is just way too much we don’t know or aren’t being told about all of this but that’s my opinion. No conspiracy theory here just saying there’s is just so much that hasn’t made sense

 

[correcaminos]

Not sure why you would take exception to the partiers comment, as we saw tons of video evidence of young people partying all over many states during spring break without any masks or social distancing at all, and they no doubt went back home with many of them already infected, and then spread it to many others. I cannot see how you can object to those facts, or do you not agree with it at all that young people on spring break are a big reason for the recent spike in younger people?? If that isn't the cause, then what do you think is causing this latest rise in cases?

Because minimizing where the spread is claiming it's just partiers is dangerous. This is not all there is to it. Yes we saw some in Miami, but to assume that will cause people to put their guards down prematurely. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

This isn't over - not yet. We need to stop acting like it won't affect the average person who is not vaccinated, because it can and will. The rise in cases is mutli leveled, but part of the problem is people saying it's just this one group and they spread... no isn't. It's more than that! I watched families get sick after spring break yes, but they weren't all just the Miami people. They were normal people having a beach vacation and letting guards down. It's still a big deal for all, not just party goers. Do you understand now?

Honestly just tired of blame that's going around as a whole.

 

[correcaminos]

With people like me over 2 1/2 days of post covid vaccine pfizer shot number 2 having a fever in the 101’s and feeling completely awful and drained and then seeing the news on JnJ (which I still think there’s more than we know about if only 6 people had issues) I’m concerned about people getting the shot who were maybe on the fence not getting one now.

I’m also concerned if we ever had to get another shot or one each year many won’t do it again who had side effects as well especially if the driver for getting the shot is well we hope this goes away and we hope we can get back to normal but for those that get a shot continue to stay away from people and wear a mask even tho places like texas who did away with masks are in the top 10 states or were

I still feel like there is just way too much we don’t know or aren’t being told about all of this but that’s my opinion. No conspiracy theory here just saying there’s is just so much that hasn’t made sense

Sorry you're still not well. It's actually not normal to be that bad off for so long. Maybe reach out to your doctor. My trial rold us to do so if side effects didn't go away in 48 hours.

Not sure what you feel is being hidden though...

 

[HarperRose]

NCL has already said they intend to mandate vaccines until November. Royal Caribbean has all but outright stated similar intent (albeit with a youth testing caveat). Those two lines alone provide a huge economic benefit to the state. In addition, I would be shocked at this point if Disney and Carnival didn't follow at least Royal's lead IF they were to receive the ok to proceed (ok, nothing Carnival does shocks me). No way the court of public opinion wouldn't see caving on the EO with spin that it's an international requirement or something. FL won't allow surrounding ports, as far as Galveston, to gain a foothold into their massive market share if they can help it. The posturing on this one really is bizarre to me.

Carnival Corp owns Carnival, HAL, Princess, Costa Cruises, Seabourn, P&O Cruises (Australia and UK), AIDA Cruises and Cunard, for a total of over 100 ships in their fleet. They are no small player.

 

[sullyinMT]

Carnival Corp owns Carnival, HAL, Princess, Costa Cruises, Seabourn, P&O Cruises (Australia and UK), AIDA Cruises and Cunard, for a total of over 100 ships in their fleet. They are no small player.

Right. For US purposes, the first three are most important. Costa has been operating in a limited fashion since last summer. They're (Carnival Corp) the biggest player economically. I'm just saying they often march to the beat of their own drum, for better or worse. HAL, Cunard and Princess could easily do adult only cruises for a while. Seaborn is niche and luxury. P&O is returning to UK service this summer (and for vaccinated passengers only, so maybe that's telling?).

My comment re: Carnival was more about the brand itself, not the corporation. We've enjoyed a number of sailings on the fleet, and they aren't inherently unsafe. But they earned their "Fun Ship" branding purposefully.