Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[easyrowrdw]

The virus does not care ”what is acceptable to the vast majority of people.” Staying home as much as possible (not as much as is comfortable) is not “just existing.” “Living” does not require trips to Disney World, in-person schooling, or even mask-free interactions with others. If we could convince selfish and entitled people to willingly endure some amount of sacrifice and discomfort, we could get the numbers down and reopen things safely.

Kids getting to go to school in person is living for many of them. It's a gigantic difference for a kid to be in school on the computer versus in person. The American Academy of Pediatrics says its far preferable for kids (especially younger ones) to be at school in person. That is something many kids need. It's also ignoring the data, which finds that schools aren't a major spreader of the virus.

I wish you could see how things are interconnected.

What you really mean is, I wish you saw things the exact same way that I did. But you aren't the arbiter of what constitutes living for others. (Neither am I or anyone else around here.) People have different needs and there are about 1,000 different theories of personality that try to explain this. For example, my sister needs to be around other people; I don't. Isolation is going to have a more deleterious impact on her than it would on me. So when she gets together with extended family, I get it. I'm not doing it, but I understand why she does.

It's obvious that too many people are getting infected. And...? We all understand best practices at this point, but people get to make their decisions. Calling strangers on the internet selfish isn't going to do anything to change that. I wish it would, as it would make this a lot easier.

 

[danlb_2000]

I'm not going to go point by point because it is pointless since you and I are at far opposite ends of the opinion spectrum. You don't get to decide what "living life" means to me. To me, things like WDW are important to actually living my life. Staying alive and only doing essential activities is not living.

I realize the number is very large, but even if every single person in the US was infected (which isn't possible because herd immunity would happen at some point), somewhere around 0.2% of the population would die from it and maybe another 0.2% would die because they wouldn't be able to get needed medical care in the short term while this happened which would be over the course of 2-3 months. While 0.4% of 330+ million people is a lot, even doing absolutely nothing, well over 99% of the population would be "protected."

You contradict yourself when you say that all COVID deaths are preventable but that you aren't talking about total lockdowns. If you don't have total lockdowns, there will still be plenty of deaths and therefore not nearly all of them are preventable.

To me, and even others that disagree with me on a lot of this topic, "essential activities only" and "lockdowns" are not very different from each other. The former may not require me to stay locked in my home but it is still locking down my life.

Realistically, my life span is another 40 years or so (I'm 45) and who knows how many of those years will be "good years" where I am physically and mentally capable of doing the things I enjoy like going to WDW or dining out. I am not willing to waste a good percentage of the rest of my life by voluntarily not doing things I enjoy "for the greater good." Even waiting for vaccine distribution is still several months best case. 6 months is over 1% of my remaining likely "good" life span.

So you are basically saying being able to live a year or two of your life the way you want is more important then possibly taking away the rest of someone else's life.

 

[DisneyCane]

Legal or not, Trump didn't seem to have any problem with trying to impose his will on states for issues he cared about.

And? The Democrat governors and some Rebublican governors have gone against what he has pushed for with COVID and their states are still having issues anyway. Therefore, it isn't an issue with following the wrong political leader. If you really think that the situation would be very different had Hillary won in 2016 you are naïve. There would have been mask mandates tied to funding and the initial lockdown would have been longer by a few weeks but otherwise the situation right now wouldn't be drastically different. She would have had the same economic pressure with a re-election campaign coming up.

 

[SamusAranX]

I honestly think that some are taking this to the other extreme.

We shouldn’t just be going anywhere and everywhere at whim, but telling people they shouldn’t be going out at all except for essentials is carrying it now to the extreme. Which is what a poster who I will not name is fully beating down the doors for.
There is a balance for everyone and every situation is different.

If they are doing it safely, and their circumstances allow it without risking others, it is rather judge mental to say “you can’t go out”.

I am going to Utah in January. I do not live with anyone elderly, in fact I live alone. I do not visit or interact with my grandparents, parents, and pretty much no one in my family except my younger brother and his wife, rarely. I am, and all of us are getting tested when I get back. I am not dining indoors while I am there. In fact the only indoors I’ll be is with our small group of friends (5) when we sleep at night in our rental home, and the grocery store, which i do at home anyway, so we can eat at the house. There will be no bars or clubs in our plans. Masks will be worn on the flights (which by the way, read the science, it’s safer to fly then go to Publix) , at the mountain, at airports, at gas stops, at the store runs, and the National park hike.
So please, go ahead and clutch your pearls and assume I am killing people left and right. Mask usage and social distancing have been proven effective. If adhering to these protocols, and the person doesn’t live with someone high risk or elderly, then they are not being selfish by daring to find some leisure or travel safely during this time.

If I lived with my grandmother, or worked in a nursing home, or interacted with family or friends who live with such ones, then do you think I would be traveling? Heck no! But to blanket judge every. dang. person/family. despite not knowing their circumstances. Get out of here. There are two sides to every spectrum. The people out there going to parties, having indoor gatherings with a lot of people, the people crowding the bars and inside dining, and the anti maskers, yes, I can rightfully say there is some level of judgement needed. But on the opposite end, there are some trying to find some semblance of enjoyment and recreation during these hard times. And if they are doing it safely, they do not deserve the wholesale condemnation.

finally. Wear a mask. Sheesh.

 

[DisneyCane]

So you are basically saying being able to live a year or two of your life the way you want is more important then possibly taking away the rest of someone else's life.

When looked at in aggregate then yes. I did a calculation a long time ago in this thread showing the total quality years taken from the surviving population vs. the total years taken by those who are killed based on the average age for the deaths. The calculation shows that every severe restriction period removes far more quality time from people who won't be killed by COVID than it takes total time from the people it kills early.

"The greater good" doesn't mean doing what is best for every single person on earth. It means that when taken as a whole, you are doing the best for everybody on average.

 

[Disstevefan1]

And? The Democrat governors and some Rebublican governors have gone against what he has pushed for with COVID and their states are still having issues anyway. Therefore, it isn't an issue with following the wrong political leader. If you really think that the situation would be very different had Hillary won in 2016 you are naïve. There would have been mask mandates tied to funding and the initial lockdown would have been longer by a few weeks but otherwise the situation right now wouldn't be drastically different. She would have had the same economic pressure with a re-election campaign coming up.

Don’t worry Joe promised he was going to shut down the virus. He promised, so I believe him.

When Joe speaks its beautiful, like a song, making unicorns and rainbows spontaneously appear.

 

[SamusAranX]

Don’t worry Joe promised he was going to shut down the virus. He promised, so I believe him.

When Joe speaks its beautiful, like a song, making unicorns and rainbows spontaneously appear.

Can we stop with the election posts? It’s over, and gosh I hate politics.

 

[GoofGoof]

If you think so, then it does. I put "for the greater good" in quotes because as long as I am abiding by social distancing and magic masks then what I do isn't hurting the greater good. There is only a miniscule chance I am infected, asymptomatic and contagious to start with. If I'm abiding by the protocols, there is an infinitesimal chance that I am doing anything detrimental to somebody else.

If you truly follow the recommendations then I can’t really fault you. However, do you follow all of them? Are you getting together in private with friends or family without masks and distancing? Many people say they follow the protocols but that’s not just wearing a mask at Costco. I have no issue with someone local going to WDW and following the rules, but I do have an issue with FL having bars fully open with no distancing, masks or capacity limits. The fault there lies equally between the people going and the government for allowing it.

The problem with this line of thinking is if millions of people say their risk is minuscule as a reason to do something that adds up to a much larger overall risk. If I have a 1 in a million chance of winning the lottery buying 1 ticket that’s minuscule. If 1 million people all buy a ticket, statistically speaking 1 person will win. So while for each individual there’s a minuscule chance when you get enough people doing the same thing the odds go way up. You may not care for your own personal health because it’s a small percent chance and you don’t think Covid is a big deal but if everyone felt that way we’d be on full stay at home right now with hospitals overrun. The only thing preventing that is a large number of people trying to slow the spread.

 

[GoofGoof]

When looked at in aggregate then yes. I did a calculation a long time ago in this thread showing the total quality years taken from the surviving population vs. the total years taken by those who are killed based on the average age for the deaths. The calculation shows that every severe restriction period removes far more quality time from people who won't be killed by COVID than it takes total time from the people it kills early.

"The greater good" doesn't mean doing what is best for every single person on earth. It means that when taken as a whole, you are doing the best for everybody on average.

I give you credit for being honest. At least you aren’t trying to pretend this has anything to do with anything other than wanting to do what you want to do without restrictions. I completely disagree with you, but at least you aren’t being fake.

 

[Chi84]

It’s a mess and Caleb is right...time for a little more “common pull” on the rope of society and some introspection.

I wan't concerned about a little common pull on the rope of society; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even expressing the same opinion countless times until it becomes a relentless harangue is just fine. I'm less fine with labeling people who don't agree with you selfish and ignorant, but I understand that's how some people choose to express themselves. As long as it doesn't violate the forum rules, have at it.

What causes me to balk is the attitude displayed toward people who don't agree with another person's opinions on how they should behave - "those people" who "thought it appropriate" to go to WDW during a pandemic. The fact is that WDW is open now with stringent precautions and people are going to go there. What's more, since this is a Disney forum, they may come here to talk about it. Getting upset that people are talking about mask compliance and plexiglass dividers seems unreasonable.

Please understand, I'm not talking about people who refuse to comply with current laws or regulations, but people who are choosing to engage in activities that are permitted but which many of us, myself included, would not allow if we were in charge.

People in a free society have this maddening habit of behaving in ways that others find strongly objectionable, contrary to the common good and downright harmful. It's fine to try to convince them otherwise, but arrogant to treat them as fools or pariahs when they continue to disagree. We did that in 2016 with disastrous results.

 

[easyrowrdw]

You know what changes behavior? Expericing a bad outcome in a close loved one or friend, and I hate to say it but most Americans are about to experience one very soon, and it might not be Grandma or Grandpa it might be Uncle Bob, Mom, Dad, cousin Stu or even little Sally.

I agree with this, though I don't think it needs to be so direct. The numbers where I live had been low for the first three months of the pandemic, but then they went crazy. The hospitals were filling up and it was evident to people that they couldn't go all the way back to how things were before. It looks like we're seeing that now, particularly in places that didn't have it very bad before. I expect that people will be "scared straight" by what they see around them. It's what happened for us and though things are ticking up a bit, they're nowhere near the peak. I'm hopeful that people will remember what the peak looked like and slow it down a bit.

 

[DisneyCane]

If you truly follow the recommendations then I can’t really fault you. However, do you follow all of them? Are you getting together in private with friends or family without masks and distancing? Many people say they follow the protocols but that’s not just wearing a mask at Costco. I have no issue with someone local going to WDW and following the rules, but I do have an issue with FL having bars fully open with no distancing, masks or capacity limits. The fault there lies equally between the people going and the government for allowing it.

The problem with this line of thinking is if millions of people say their risk is minuscule as a reason to do something that adds up to a much larger overall risk. If I have a 1 in a million chance of winning the lottery buying 1 ticket that’s minuscule. If 1 million people all buy a ticket, statistically speaking 1 person will win. So while for each individual there’s a minuscule chance when you get enough people doing the same thing the odds go way up. You may not care for your own personal health because it’s a small percent chance and you don’t think Covid is a big deal but if everyone felt that way we’d be on full stay at home right now with hospitals overrun. The only thing preventing that is a large number of people trying to slow the spread.

I get what you are saying. When I get together in private there is distancing but no masks. Also, the people that I get together with either work from home or isolated in an office nowhere near anybody else. Basically, none of us do anything that puts us in a high risk situation of being infected. Well, I did attend an outdoor superspreader event a couple of weeks ago but I haven't attended a private gathering since then.

On the lottery, if 1 million people buy a ticket, they'd have to all pick different numbers otherwise 1 person will not win. That's how the powerball and megamillions end up with such huge jackpots.

I give you credit for being honest. At least you aren’t trying to pretend this has anything to do with anything other than wanting to do what you want to do without restrictions. I completely disagree with you, but at least you aren’t being fake.

I don't think I've ever said "without restrictions." I've said that if a grocery store can operate with certain restrictions a craft store should be allowed to operate with the same restrictions. I've also said that if the restrictions negatively effect the business and are mandated, the mandating authority should have to compensate the business for the lost revenue.

I guess put another way, I want to go to WDW on occasion. For four months I couldn't do that. Now I can with restrictions. I'm fine with the restrictions even though it isn't the same exact experience as before.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Can we stop with the election posts? It’s over, and gosh I hate politics.

I was just replying to the previous post. Besides, this thread is tagged politics so it seems like the correct place.

It's not over..... Yet.

If the DEMS take the majority in the Senate, THEN it's over... If that happens, may God help us...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I was just replying to the previous post. Besides, this thread is tagged politics so it seems like the correct place.

It's not over..... Yet.

If the DEMS take the majority in the Senate, THEN it's over... If that happens, may God help us...

Well we can check off “the box” for the day...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I wan't concerned about a little common pull on the rope of society; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even expressing the same opinion countless times until it becomes a relentless harangue is just fine. I'm less fine with labeling people who don't agree with you selfish and ignorant, but I understand that's how some people choose to express themselves. As long as it doesn't violate the forum rules, have at it.

What causes me to balk is the attitude displayed toward people who don't agree with another person's opinions on how they should behave - "those people" who "thought it appropriate" to go to WDW during a pandemic. The fact is that WDW is open now with stringent precautions and people are going to go there. What's more, since this is a Disney forum, they may come here to talk about it. Getting upset that people are talking about mask compliance and plexiglass dividers seems unreasonable.

Please understand, I'm not talking about people who refuse to comply with current laws or regulations, but people who are choosing to engage in activities that are permitted but which many of us, myself included, would not allow if we were in charge.

People in a free society have this maddening habit of behaving in ways that others find strongly objectionable, contrary to the common good and downright harmful. It's fine to try to convince them otherwise, but arrogant to treat them as fools or pariahs when they continue to disagree. We did that in 2016 with disastrous results.

Not that I really disagree with anything you said...
But you seem to be doing a philosophical “deep dive” on things that are becoming more simple/practical by the day.

The “opinions” have been given more than their due for 6 months...they’ve had their day. And they have proven to be as worthless as we could have guessed up front.

I think in this country, one of the things that the populace is wrestling with is the realization that “things always work out for us” because of our name and history has been shattered. The era of invincibility has been proven to be a myth and we are paying the consequences of an unwavering belief in that.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I think in this country, one of the things that the populace is wrestling with is the realization that “things always work out for us” because of our name and history has been shattered. The era of invincibility has been proven to be a myth and we are paying the consequences of an unwavering belief in that.

This sums it up well. Honestly, I figured it would go away by the summer. And I don’t doubt scientists, I just thought they were presenting a worst case scenario and once we restricted travel and got the numbers under control it would be similar to the swine flu and Zica, etc.

But when it didn’t go away I didn’t say “well I’m tired of this I’m booking my trip to wdw”

 

[Parker in NYC]

Going to Disney World.

Socializing in private homes.

All of the above.

 

[Parker in NYC]

This has been more than “a couple months” of inconvenience. We’re about to enter month nine, with no definitive end date in sight. Most people I’ve seen in public have complied with wearing masks and social distancing. Yet the number of cases is still skyrocketing. Am I really supposed to believe that this is mainly due to people holding private get-togethers? The majority of people, including myself, are fed up with everything. We’ve followed the rules in place regarding mask-wearing and social distancing. We’ve cancelled all of our vacation plans this year. We can’t attend sporting events or concerts. There aren’t even any new worthwhile movies to attend. As the calendar is soon to roll to 2021, there is no relief on the horizon. We’re sick of this. We’re burnt out. When life for eight months (and counting) consists of going to work and virtually nothing else to look forward to, it’s hard to have patience.

Boo-hoo. People were saying the same thing 1 month in. I really don't have time for any of this. Yes, we're all exhausted but what's the alternative?

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see Martin's boo-hoo. So, consider this two boo-hoos. Yoo halloo!

 

[Disstevefan1]

Not that I really disagree with anything you said...
But you seem to be doing a philosophical “deep dive” on things that are becoming more simple/practical by the day.

The “opinions” have been given more than their due for 6 months...they’ve had their day. And they have proven to be as worthless as we could have guessed up front.

I think in this country, one of the things that the populace is wrestling with is the realization that “things always work out for us” because of our name and history has been shattered. The era of invincibility has been proven to be a myth and we are paying the consequences of an unwavering belief in that.

"Things always work out for us” because of our name and history" there are folks that think like this? That's magical thinking.

I always thought what happens to me happens because of what I do or don't do. I do attribute things to luck, both positive and negative, but it really comes down to what I do or don't do.

 

[Parker in NYC]

"Things always work out for us” because of our name and history" there are folks that think like this? That's magical thinking.

Oh, if 2020 didn't lift the veil for you on this, I'll have what you're smoking.