Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[_caleb]

I think there’s a middle ground between everyone stay home all the time and everything open with no restrictions. It’s a matter of trying to figure out what’s problematic and what’s less of an issue and then using that to guide our actions.

Right! We’re on a continuum!
The challenge is finding where we should be on the continuum between “full lockdown” and “back to normal.” And the numbers say that we’re too far toward the “back to normal” extreme for our own good.

 

[Disstevefan1]

• The protocols that we’re currently using were designed by public health experts to keep us safe while we do only that which is necessary. Each element was selected assuming that people stay home as much as possible.
  
  Cloth masks, for example, aren’t the safest, but they’re safer than nothing, and much more widely available.
• 6’ distancing isn’t the safest distance, but much safer than getting much closer together.
• Gatherings of 25 (or 50 or 150) aren’t the safest group size, but safer than even larger groups.
• Washing hands and surfaces doesn’t eliminate the threat of infection, but helps reduce it.

These things are all woven together to create our response to the virus. But these things all assume that we’re pretty much staying at home as much as humanly possible. They are not sufficient to keep us safe during leisure activities such as rallies, protests, public celebrations, and trips to Disney World.

Not a source for my opinion here, but supporting my assertion, this NYT article asking whether 6’ is adequate social distancing for runners. The answer is no.m

All your bullet points are happening (to the best of their ability) at WDW, so all these precautions are only not good enough because a person happens to be standing on property at WDW and not deemed “necessary ”?

What does the thought police deem necessary? I am practically nagged at work to take my vacation time for my own mental and emotional well being. The cast members need their jobs. There are no easy answers.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do we think that Disney will have to shut down again? If so, do we think Disney will survive? My mom seems to think that instead of shutting everything down again, that Biden will do what was mentioned above with masks etc, and try to curb things in that regard. What are y’all’s opinions?

Biden doesn‘t have the authority to shut down Disney. He could call for a National stay at home order if things got bad enough, but it’s really up to the states to implement it (not every state shut down in March). I don’t see FL going along with it, but it’s not likely to happen anyway and here’s why. Biden doesn‘t officially take over until Jan 20. If we look at the history of Covid the major outbreaks we have seen generally have a 3 month arc to them. Wuhan Jan-Mar, NYC Mar-May, Sunbelt Jun-Aug, etc.. If this “2nd wave“ follows historical precedent it should be winding down or almost done by Inauguration Day.

I agree that the primary push will likely be a more consistent message, stop the conspiracy theories and anti-science talk, encourage people to follow existing protocols, enhance CDC protocols and ramp up production and distribution on anything the states and local governments need: test kits, PPE, additional resources for tracing, etc... God willing they will also have their hands full organizing the massive distribution of a safe and effective vaccine shortly after taking office

I still think the only way WDW closes again is if there’s a major outbreak or several smaller ones tied directly to the parks and the PR hit isn’t worth the money coming in or in a less likely scenario, demand drops low enough that they can’t cover the variable costs of operating, in which case they would be losing more money being open than closed. I don’t think either scenario is likely.

 

[GoofGoof]

Right! We’re on a continuum!
The challenge is finding where we should be on the continuum between “full lockdown” and “back to normal.” And the numbers say that we’re too far toward the “back to normal” extreme for our own good.

100% agreed that we are way too far down the “back to normal side” in a lot of places, but I just have WDW much lower on my list of things that should be pulled back. People having parties and gatherings at home, bars and restaurants and other larger indoor gatherings are a few of the things I’d say are more of a priority.

 

[Jrb1979]

100% agreed that we are way too far down the “back to normal side” in a lot of places, but I just have WDW much lower on my list of things that should be pulled back. People having parties and gatherings at home, bars and restaurants and other larger indoor gatherings are a few of the things I’d say are more of a priority.

I agree for the most part. The message I think that should be put out, on top of the things you listed, is that non essential travel between states shouldn't be happening right now til cases start getting under control. How that pertains to Disney is that no out of state people should be visiting right now. Traveling is just as big a risk as homes, bars and restaurants.

 

[_caleb]

All your bullet points are happening (to the best of their ability) at WDW, so all these precautions are only not good enough because a person happens to be standing on property at WDW and not deemed “necessary ”?

What does the thought police deem necessary? I am practically nagged at work to take my vacation time for my own mental and emotional well being. The cast members need their jobs. There are no easy answers.

I’m not sure who the “thought police” are, but the items in the bullet list are all proposed on the assumption that people aren’t doing things that aren’t necessary.

Please take your vacation time! We all need to take care of our well being. Ordinarily, a trip to Disney World would be one way to do this. But these days, we’re all having to settle for the necessities, and gathering at a theme park simply isn’t one of them (as evidenced by virus spreader events, such as weddings, birthdays, and rallies, which have been implicated in mass exposures).

Cast members are stuck in the middle, aren’t they? They need their jobs. But they are subject to Disney’s tolerance for safety, not their own (unless, as one member here has suggested, they “just” quit and find a different job).

But there are other ways for our society to provide for CMs. We were on to something with the stimulus checks and the Paycheck Protection Plan. This wasn’t ideal, but helped keep people employed, or at least furloughed but eligible for unemployment. My point is that “but CMs need jobs, too!” is not a sufficient reason for masses of people to continue endanger the entire country by going to Disney parks.

But you’re right. These are not easy answers. But the fact that they’re difficult doesn’t make them any less clear to me at this point.

 

[_caleb]

100% agreed that we are way too far down the “back to normal side” in a lot of places, but I just have WDW much lower on my list of things that should be pulled back. People having parties and gatherings at home, bars and restaurants and other larger indoor gatherings are a few of the things I’d say are more of a priority.

Yep- LOTS of places we need to be more disciplined and careful. It’s only that this is a Disney fan discussion board and a thread about COVID and WDW that I’m focusing on the parks. Obviously we have a lot more issues than just Disney World contributing to our current failures to control COVID.

 

[Chi84]

I’m not sure “thought police” would be my choice to describe it, but there are differences of opinion on how much these safety precautions help and different tolerances as far as how much people are willing to do.

In the absence of widespread agreement, governments and businesses are adopting laws and practices they deem appropriate. Some believe they go too far, others not far enough.

We can expect people to follow the rules in place and argue that more restrictions are necessary. But I disagree with calling people who don’t meet someone else’s personal safety standards selfish, foolish or ignorant.

It’s not so much “thought police” as trying to control others’ behavior through name-calling, which usually stops working after grade school.

 

[GimpYancIent]

100% agreed that we are way too far down the “back to normal side” in a lot of places, but I just have WDW much lower on my list of things that should be pulled back. People having parties and gatherings at home, bars and restaurants and other larger indoor gatherings are a few of the things I’d say are more of a priority.

The debate is understood about the parties, gatherings (events), bars, restaurants and other crowd creating activities, but, the gatherings at home are a step too far to be monitoring. Talk about personal, invasion of privacy, sanctity of the home etc. As a suggestion to avoid gatherings at home is pretty much it particularly with the holidays looming. Jurisdictions that have the most draconian restrictions are not doing well handling parties and other overt large gatherings as it is.

 

[GoofGoof]

The debate is understood about the parties, gatherings (events), bars, restaurants and other crowd creating activities, but, the gatherings at home are a step too far to be monitoring. Talk about personal, invasion of privacy, sanctity of the home etc. As a suggestion to avoid gatherings at home is pretty much it particularly with the holidays looming. Jurisdictions that have the most draconian restrictions are not doing well handling parties and other overt large gatherings as it is.

This isn’t about buzz words and memes. There’s nothing “draconian” about doing the right thing. People shouldn’t be getting together at home whether it’s easy to enforce or not and it’s certainly not an excuse to do because it’s hard to enforce and if an attempt is made its a personal invasion of privacy.

With the holidays looming people should seriously consider how they may feel if they pull that trigger and get the loaded chamber instead of the empty click. Most people will be perfectly fine, but some won’t. Those people you see in news stories talking about super-spreader events and family gatherings with multiple people sick and/or dead aren’t crisis actors. They are real people who also thought it would never happen to their family. I don’t know how I could live with myself if I was the cause of something like that and God forbid someone I love dies or is permanently impacted. Definitely not worth the risk for me. Something for everyone to consider.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Hospitalizations have been going up over the past two weeks...

And now deaths *may* be just starting to up again...

 

[danlb_2000]

This isn’t about buzz words and memes. There’s nothing “draconian” about doing the right thing. People shouldn’t be getting together at home whether it’s easy to enforce or not and it’s certainly not an excuse to do because it’s hard to enforce and if an attempt is made its a personal invasion of privacy.

With the holidays looming people should seriously consider how they may feel if they pull that trigger and get the loaded chamber instead of the empty click. Most people will be perfectly fine, but some won’t. Those people you see in news stories talking about super-spreader events and family gatherings with multiple people sick and/or dead aren’t crisis actors. They are real people who also thought it would never happen to their family. I don’t know how I could live with myself if I was the cause of something like that and God forbid someone I love dies or is permanently impacted. Definitely not worth the risk for me. Something for everyone to consider.

The holidays are of particular concern because this is when it is very common to have family members of all ages getting together, so you run the risk of younger people infecting the older who have a much higher chance of a bad outcome.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The U.S. ...

 

[_caleb]

I’m not sure “thought police” would be my choice to describe it, but there are differences of opinion on how much these safety precautions help and different tolerances as far as how much people are willing to do.

In the absence of widespread agreement, governments and businesses are adopting laws and practices they deem appropriate. Some believe they go too far, others not far enough.

We can expect people to follow the rules in place and argue that more restrictions are necessary. But I disagree with calling people who don’t meet someone else’s personal safety standards selfish, foolish or ignorant.

It’s not so much “thought police” as trying to control others’ behavior through name-calling, which usually stops working after grade school.

I’m assuming you might be referring to me, since I wrote that I think people going to the parks right now are selfish, foolish, and ignorant. Obviously this is my opinion, and people are certain to disagree. I don’t see this as name-calling, as I’m describing people’s behavior, but it’s probably going to put people on the defensive (which I realize isn’t super conducive to conversation).

But what else can you call the behavior of some who would willingly and knowingly risk spreading the virus to others in the name of their own entertainment?

Again, I used to be all “whatever” about the reopening of WDW. But the numbers are abysmal and show that we have not done enough to limit our contact with one another (deliberately using first person plural here). We may disagree about how big a deal it is to go to the parks, but eventually we all have to agree on how much we’re willing to pull together and willingly go without fun until we get the numbers down.

 

[_caleb]

The debate is understood about the parties, gatherings (events), bars, restaurants and other crowd creating activities, but, the gatherings at home are a step too far to be monitoring. Talk about personal, invasion of privacy, sanctity of the home etc. As a suggestion to avoid gatherings at home is pretty much it particularly with the holidays looming. Jurisdictions that have the most draconian restrictions are not doing well handling parties and other overt large gatherings as it is.

Requiring blackout curtains during WW2
Rationing of food and supplies during WW2
Rationing fuel and food during the Depression
Rationing of water during a drought
Rationing of food during a famine
Not going to Grandma’s for Thanksgiving Dinner during a global pandemic

 

[GoofGoof]

The holidays are of particular concern because this is when it is very common to have family members of all ages getting together, so you run the risk of younger people infecting the older who have a much higher chance of a bad outcome.

Yes. Thanksgiving is particularly troubling with many colleges ending their physical semester the weekend before thanksgiving and then the students coming home to see grandma and crazy uncle Don for a big meal.

I think people should consider alternatives or if they want to see people try to do it outside, with masks and/or distancing and keep it shorter than normal years. The other alternative is to have everyone quarantine before the holiday. Not always possible, but could work for some people.

 

[danlb_2000]

Yes. Thanksgiving is particularly troubling with many colleges ending their physical semester the weekend before thanksgiving and then the students coming home to see grandma and crazy uncle Don for a big meal.

I think people should consider alternatives or if they want to see people try to do it outside, with masks and/or distancing and keep it shorter than normal years. The other alternative is to have everyone quarantine before the holiday. Not always possible, but could work for some people.

Yeah, me and my wife normally host Thanksgiving, but this year we are doing dinner on our own and will probably just stop by relatives to drop off deserts and maybe hang out outside for a bit.

 

[_caleb]

Just wanted to clarify that when I say that people should stay home during the pandemic, I’m NOT saying that the government should shut everything down during the pandemic. The end result might be the same, but I’m advocating personal responsibility and sacrifice for the common good. I’m also adamant that people need access to good information so that they can make informed decisions. All the shady stuff (“expert” opinions and the PR messaging “we‘re doing all we can to keep you safe!”) only serve as fuel for confirmation bias in support of people doing things that aren’t good for our country right now.

 

[GoofGoof]

I’m assuming you might be referring to me, since I wrote that I think people going to the parks right now are selfish, foolish, and ignorant. Obviously this is my opinion, and people are certain to disagree. I don’t see this as name-calling, as I’m describing people’s behavior, but it’s probably going to put people on the defensive (which I realize isn’t super conducive to conversation).

But what else can you call the behavior of some who would willingly and knowingly risk spreading the virus to others in the name of their own entertainment?

Again, I used to be all “whatever” about the reopening of WDW. But the numbers are abysmal and show that we have not done enough to limit our contact with one another (deliberately using first person plural here). We may disagree about how big a deal it is to go to the parks, but eventually we all have to agree on how much we’re willing to pull together and willingly go without fun until we get the numbers down.

I have seen what in my opinion is some very selfish and foolish behavior recently around me but I wouldn’t necessarily put visiting WDW in that category. It’s a matter of opinion so not saying you are right or wrong. It’s a valid opinion to have even if I don’t agree. Theoretically any time you leave your house you risk spreading the virus but I think with proper mitigation it’s possible to limit the risks of many activities. I do agree that we should adjust our level activity based on community spread and at this particular time with cases surging most places again it’s not a good idea to be traveling out of state for most people. I think its hard to time things with WDW since most people going there from out of state now or soon probably planned the trip a while ago. It’s not like lots of people spontaneously picking up and going. Not that that’s an excuse or makes it any better, just some logic around why it’s happening.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yeah, me and my wife normally host Thanksgiving, but this year we are doing dinner on our own and will probably just stop by relatives to drop off deserts and maybe hang out outside for a bit.

Same here. We just saw my parents yesterday since it was 70 and sunny and we could hang in the yard. It’s not ideal, but my kids are back in physical school as well as my niece and nephew, my sister in law is back to work outside the home and I have at least 1 uncle who is still working. Lots of people interacting in the community while spread is high. We would usually get together for Thanksgiving but not worth the risk of getting together with my parents or elderly aunts and uncles this year. Sucks, but its better to be safe then sorry.