Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[milordsloth]

we could have too. We just chose not to.

It was a mess enough only limiting travel from China and then Europe, let alone stopping all international and all domestic travel. Much more complicated than "just choosing not to". The domestic travel would have been the more difficult part.. how are you going to enforce a ban on travel at every single state border crossing?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I'm going to give the obvious answer anyway. They were able to shut down ALL travel into and within the country super early in the situation. Easy for a very small island nation and probably the best way I can imagine to quickly stop the spread before it gets out of hand.

ETA: Hawaii could be compared to New Zealand, since they are an island and could shut down travel relatively easily.

We could have shut down all travel between states... I don’t think we should have, but it’s not an impossible idea.

 

[Touchdown]

We could have shut down all travel between states... I don’t think we should have, but it’s not an impossible idea.

Actually we can’t, interstate travel is guaranteed to all citizens by the Privileges and Immunities clause. It’s unconstitutional to block travel.

 

[Horizons '83]

Yes, @GoofGoof , please know that I'm not attacking you. You are honestly one of the more calm and level headed folks in this thread. Emotions don't exactly translate through typed messages. I sincerely appreciate your responses and the back and forth we have had over the last few months. Please excuse any "tone" that may have come across in my messages.

Beers on me if we meet at WDW, which I would truly enjoy to sit and chat with you.

You’re full of it really. You’re not balanced like @GoofGoof, you literally told @oceanbreeze77 to essentially shut up and wear a mask in a sarcastic tone. Says your from Atlanta like me, guess what, get ready to wear that mask! Mandatory masks coming to a theatre near you

 

[kong1802]

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt - assuming you are acting out of fear is the most charitable interpretation of your behavior. You post scraps of thinly-sourced, out of context reporting from interested sources and make sweeping claims with no evidence. You ignore a remarkable unanimity among experts because it clashes with your narrative. When you say the epidemic is “waning,” you are not offering a difference of opinion, you are simply lying.

The reality of the pandemic is not hard to establish. Go to a hospital, in New York or Florida or Arizona or Chicago or DC or Houston. Talk to the doctors, the nurses.

And your little comment about “asking everyone else to protect” me reflects poorly on you. I’m not particularly worried about myself, I’m worried about the many, many more vulnerable people I may come in contact with. Those are the people your attitude endangers. Even if you have truly deluded yourself to believe the pandemic is not a threat, the steps that are being suggested to protect people are so minor it is absurd not to take them, it is simple misanthropy not to take those steps.

You aren’t allowed to discount the 3 bloggers that say what they say.
But it’s ok for people to discount the 3000 scientists and journalists who say what they say....

 

[xdan0920]

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt - assuming you are acting out of fear is the most charitable interpretation of your behavior. You post scraps of thinly-sourced, out of context reporting from interested sources and make sweeping claims with no evidence. You ignore a remarkable unanimity among experts because it clashes with your narrative. When you say the epidemic is “waning,” you are not offering a difference of opinion, you are simply lying.

The reality of the pandemic is not hard to establish. Go to a hospital, in New York or Florida or Arizona or Chicago or DC or Houston. Talk to the doctors, the nurses.

And your little comment about “asking everyone else to protect” me reflects poorly on you. I’m not particularly worried about myself, I’m worried about the many, many more vulnerable people I may come in contact with. Those are the people your attitude endangers. Even if you have truly deluded yourself to believe the pandemic is not a threat, the steps that are being suggested to protect people are so minor it is absurd not to take them, it is simple misanthropy not to take those steps.

1. You didn’t answer me about what states are doing things “right”

2. The epidemic is waning. It’s not a debate.

Now, what should we do to keep vulnerable people safe? Give me a list of these “minor” things.

Edit to add...

Of the minor things I have been asked to give up....

A funeral for a friend.

3 months(so far)of my child's education

5 months of my kids social and sporting life

10s of thousands of dollars.

Seeing my parents and in-laws, them seeing our kids.

Then there are a host of other actual minor(In the grand scheme) things that I have given up. From cancelled trips to family gatherings.

 

[Touchdown]

So death rate is the end all be all statistic that determines a pandemic is waning, that means that you agree these states have a problem then?

And of course the state we are all focusing on on this site

 

[xdan0920]

So death rate is the end all be all statistic that determines a pandemic is waning, that means that you agree these states have a problem then?
View attachment 482296View attachment 482297
And of course the state we are all focusing on on this site

View attachment 482298

Let’s say they have a problem. What should they do?

edit to add. Florida is essentially flat, and Texas and Arizona both have major issues with their borders.... but I am going to go along with this because I want to see your end game.

 

[kong1802]

So death rate is the end all be all statistic that determines a pandemic is waning, that means that you agree these states have a problem then?
View attachment 482296View attachment 482297
And of course the state we are all focusing on on this site

View attachment 482298

No. It’s no longer positivity rate, death rate, or total number of cases.
It’s now death rate divided by hospitalizations divided by 10 on a rolling 7 day average.. Beat that!

 

[xdan0920]

No. It’s no longer positivity rate, death rate, or total number of cases.
It’s now death rate divided by hospitalizations divided by 10.. Beat that!

No. Let’s play along Kong. Let’s ignore the facts and say they have a problem, what should they do?

 

[Touchdown]

Let’s say they have a problem. What should they do?

edit to add. Florida is essentially flat, and Texas and Arizona both have major issues with their borders.... but I am going to go along with this because I want to see your end game.

They need to stop reopening and roll back to phase 1. If numbers then do not respond, they may need to shutdown again and restart, this time a lot slower. You know the advise that Dr Brix gave yesterday.

 

[Casper Gutman]

1. You didn’t answer me about what states are doing things “right”

2. The epidemic is waning. It’s not a debate.
View attachment 482295

Now, what should we do to keep vulnerable people safe? Give me a list of these “minor” things.

Edit to add...

Of the minor things I have been asked to give up....

A funeral for a friend.

3 months(so far)of my child's education

5 months of my kids social and sporting life

10s of thousands of dollars.

Seeing my parents and in-laws, them seeing our kids.

Then there are a host of other actual minor(In the grand scheme) things that I have given up. From cancelled trips to family gatherings.

Wear a mask. Keep your distance. Avoid large gatherings. Minimize unnecessary group activities. Don’t spread misinformation. That’s it. That’s what you need to do now.

The things you list seem mostly to be products of the lockdown. The lockdowns were no fun, but they were necessary. They were supposed to give us time to come up with longer-term measures. We didn’t. But if everyone did the things I list above, we might have avoided the need for more lockdowns. We haven’t, and now cases are spiraling in a large number of states and we have to consider measures up to and including lockdowns again.

I assume you know cases are rising sharply. What is your theory as to why deaths aren’t, why do you believe they won’t despite past experience around the world (they have in several states), and what is your evidence?

 

[Casper Gutman]

They need to stop reopening and roll back to phase 1. If numbers then do not respond, they may need to shutdown again and restart, this time a lot slower. You know the advise that Dr Brix gave yesterday.

But the main thing, the biggest thing, is that EVERYONE must wear masks, especially those in power, and EVERYONE must convey that the threat is real. Reopening WDW doesn’t help with that last bit (aside from all the other reasons it’s a bad idea).

 

[mickeymiss]

I think any extreme side is hard to listen do. As we see cases go up, the death rate falls. This doesn't even include the numerous infected people who never were tested, dropping that death rate further. On the flip side, there are those who think the virus is nothing. Even if that's what someone thinks, refusing basic precautions will slow down any path to normalcy. I'll wear the dang mask if it lets me live a little.

Now we have our own top expert saying that it is a "false narrative" to be comforted by lower death rates. No wonder we are divided. Nobody wants to be in this together. I have yet to see anyone change their beliefs so there's no meaningful dialogue. You're labeled either a grandma killing science denier or a hysterical overreacting sheep.

I want to dwell somewhere more level headed and compassionate. This is not just a virus. It has caused harmful ripple effects to people in many other ways.

 

[kong1802]

No. Let’s play along Kong. Let’s ignore the facts and say they have a problem, what should they do?

You can't play the game if you aren't playing by the same set of facts.......

What facts are we ignoring? The rising rates in the spiking states? Let's use your 7 day average. How's the rate in FL flat?

So using the facts that we all know and should have now embraced, what should they do?

They should mandate masks in the state.

Since we botched the initial response, testing is still an issue, somehow.

The messaging needs to get stronger. So people quit thinking its not a big deal and forcing us into these shut downs again.

Places like bars and other gathering places that are indoors need to remain shut down. They should have been able to reopen by now if we had handled this properly. But we didn't. I feel terribly for the owners of those places. Can't get political but there's ways to assist them.

Let's pretend Im right and the other 94% of scientists and journalists are right. What do you think they should do in the face of rising death rates and hospitalizations in these states?

 

[xdan0920]

They need to stop reopening and roll back to phase 1. If numbers then do not respond, they may need to shutdown again and restart, this time a lot slower. You know the advise that Dr Brix gave yesterday.

Arizona did that. In fact Arizona is now well below the national average for movement, they are more locked down that the majority of the country, and yet.....

Lockdowns do not work. The CDC, the WHO, they know this, all previous pandemic planning states this. But panic overtook reason, and we completely screwed the pooch.

Going Back to phase 1, or another stay at home order is completely unacceptable. And not at all “minor”

 

[Touchdown]

If lockdowns don’t work how did Europe and the Northeast and Midwest drop their numbers? What stopped it there as opposed to the Southern US?

I don’t like lockdowns, and I wish we would have taken the time after them to come up with a robust contact tracing or testing program but there seems to be no political will to do so, which means until we have much better treatment measures and or a vaccine we have to revert to those methods.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think any extreme side is hard to listen do. As we see cases go up, the death rate falls. This doesn't even include the numerous infected people who never were tested, dropping that death rate further. On the flip side, there are those who think the virus is nothing. Even if that's what someone thinks, refusing basic precautions will slow down any path to normalcy. I'll wear the dang mask if it lets me live a little.

Now we have our own top expert saying that it is a "false narrative" to be comforted by lower death rates. No wonder we are divided. Nobody wants to be in this together. I have yet to see anyone change their beliefs so there's no meaningful dialogue. You're labeled either a grandma killing science denier or a hysterical overreacting sheep.

I want to dwell somewhere more level headed and compassionate. This is not just a virus. It has caused harmful ripple effects to people in many other ways.

So your theory is that the virus has mutated to be less dangerous and the scientists either haven’t noticed or are hiding it? Look, in four weeks, if the outcome trends continue I’ll admit I’m wrong. I hope I am. But no one seems to offer any explanation as to why this surge will have different results then the surge a few months ago.

And extreme reactions are often out of place. But this is an extreme situation, a once in a lifetime situation. It’s not normal, and it’s the normal, both-sides-are-too-extreme take you offer that is out of place.

And if you go to dwell almost anywhere else, you’re not going to escape those “extremes,” you’re going to find one is accepted as reality.

 

[Casper Gutman]

If lockdowns don’t work how did Europe and the Northeast and Midwest drop their numbers? What stopped it there as opposed to the Southern US?

To add to this, offer a plausible explanation for why lockdowns don’t work. You may need to develop a theory of virus spread that scientists have missed for... all of history.

 

[xdan0920]

If lockdowns don’t work how did Europe and the Northeast and Midwest drop their numbers? What stopped it there as opposed to the Southern US?

Ah, I was hoping someone would bring up the northeast. What a wonderful job lockdowns did.

To add to this, offer a plausible explanation for why lockdowns don’t work. You may need to develop a theory of virus spread that scientists have missed for... all of history.

Or you could just look to all previous pandemic planning.