Construction begins on Miami to Orlando high speed rail

[LAKid53]

The Orlando area theme parks (or even local transportation) could solve the problem - if they chose to do so (or had the money) The bigger problem is at the other end.

I could take a train to Orlando - but I would have to drive 30 minutes north to do so, and leave my car. Then take 3 hrs by train. Then need transportation at the other end. Or I could get in my car, and drive south for 3 hrs and park at my resort.

And I live downtown! It would be even harder for someone who lives in the suburbs. Pretty much impossible without a private way to get to the train station.

Before the downtown terminal was closed back in the late 70s, I could have taken a cab or bus. Even earlier, I could have taken the streetcar.

There also has to be the will of the Florida taxpayer!

No, there has to be the will of the Florida Legislature. Do you not remember the Bullet Train? The Florida voters voted to make that train constitutional, granted is not the way to do it, but many times the only way for Florida citizens to get the Legislature to do anything. And what happened? A somewhat misleading campaign by Jeb Bush to repeal the amendment. Now look at I-4. Wouldn't it be nice to have that train? Federal government was giving money away to the states for things like high speed rail development (it was a return of OUR tax dollars). What did Scott do? Turn it down.

Obviously you live in Florida since it would take you 30 minutes to drive to the train depot. I also live in Florida. I would love to be able to drive my car the 15 minutes to the train depot (we have one, just not operating anymore), park it there and take the train to Orlando. I stay on property and take Disney transportation, so I don't need transportation once I get there. And I think Disney would provide something similar to the Magical Express from the Orlando train depot to your resort as is done now from MCO to the resort. Given how congested the 4 major roads in Florida have become - I-10, I-75, I-95 and the Turnpike - I would welcome high speed rail between Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville. Just ask the members of the Florida Legislature about getting to my part of the state during session.

As I previously said, one of the plans for the Bullet Train from Tampa to Orlando - the busiest surface road in Florida - was to run along the I-4 corridor, some proposed in the median. I've ridden CalTrain up to San Jose, through a much denser population than Florida has. It can be done. Folks in Tallahassee just have to see the wisdom of doing so. And my experience with the Florida Legislature is that what they lack, wisdom and future thinking. And btw, it was Henry Flagler who is more responsible for the expansion to South Florida than A/C.

 

[LAKid53]

Here's a rendering of what downtown Miami will look like with the station complete and all the adjacent developments now under construction. Notice how everything nicely connects via the Metromover automated people mover system. The rendering is just the immediate area of the Miami station. There are other mega developments to the south and north of the rendering also under construction. All link into the Metromover system. All are extremely Disney-like and futuristic. Miami will be an incredible city when it's all said and done!

View attachment 65642
The station is on the bottom middle.

View attachment 65643
The station is #5 in the above rendering.

For more renderings, go to http://www.themallatmiamiworldcenter.com.

This is the one being done with private money and without the Florida Legislature, correct? No wonder it is so nice!

 

[LAKid53]

Actually, the big players are more than willing to contribute, if there was a plan even on the table.

As for why the residents would want to. One very big word. Jobs.

Let me elaborate. Transit brings people (customers) in. That's why the big players like it. If it brings people in, it helps the economy. If it helps the economy, jobs are created. That's worth a penny sales tax for the jobs that will be created.

Can you PLEASE run for the Florida Legislature? You'd certainly get my vote. Given the contribution to Florida's economy tourism makes and the jobs that would be created in a construction industry decimated by the housing bust in Florida, I am surprised no one in Tallahassee has thought of this. Too busy arguing over gerrymandered voting districts, I guess.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, there has to be the will of the Florida Legislature. Do you not remember the Bullet Train? The Florida voters voted to make that train constitutional, granted is not the way to do it, but many times the only way for Florida citizens to get the Legislature to do anything. And what happened? A somewhat misleading campaign by Jeb Bush to repeal the amendment. Now look at I-4. Wouldn't it be nice to have that train? Federal government was giving money away to the states for things like high speed rail development (it was a return of OUR tax dollars). What did Scott do? Turn it down.

Obviously you live in Florida since it would take you 30 minutes to drive to the train depot. I also live in Florida. I would love to be able to drive my car the 15 minutes to the train depot (we have one, just not operating anymore), park it there and take the train to Orlando. I stay on property and take Disney transportation, so I don't need transportation once I get there. And I think Disney would provide something similar to the Magical Express from the Orlando train depot to your resort as is done now from MCO to the resort. Given how congested the 4 major roads in Florida have become - I-10, I-75, I-95 and the Turnpike - I would welcome high speed rail between Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville. Just ask the members of the Florida Legislature about getting to my part of the state during session.

As I previously said, one of the plans for the Bullet Train from Tampa to Orlando - the busiest surface road in Florida - was to run along the I-4 corridor, some proposed in the median. I've ridden CalTrain up to San Jose, through a much denser population than Florida has. It can be done. Folks in Tallahassee just have to see the wisdom of doing so. And my experience with the Florida Legislature is that what they lack, wisdom and future thinking. And btw, it was Henry Flagler who is more responsible for the expansion to South Florida than A/C.

That train was a boondoggle that would have set back rail transit in Florida for years. It really was the equivalent of buying a Ferrari to only drive in congestion. The taxpayers would have been on the hook for maintaining an extremely expensive set of trains that were never going to be used anywhere near their potential. Far cheaper to build and maintain regular trains on the same route would (and do) have made the trip in about the same amount of time.

 

[PeterAlt]

This is the one being done with private money and without the Florida Legislature, correct? No wonder it is so nice!

Yup. The system will cost $1.5 billion to construct. The company has sold bonds to come up with all that money.

 

[PeterAlt]

AAF will make money not only on the ticket sales but also on the real estate developments it is build in along the route.

 

[LAKid53]

That train was a boondoggle that would have set back rail transit in Florida for years. It really was the equivalent of buying a Ferrari to only drive in congestion. The taxpayers would have been on the hook for maintaining an extremely expensive set of trains that were never going to be used anywhere near their potential. Far cheaper to build and maintain regular trains on the same route would (and do) have made the trip in about the same amount of time.

Yeah, and look at I-4 now. No, the project was killed by Jeb Bush before any real planning started. I-4 is the most congested major road in Florida - it's following the population growth in that Tampa/Orlando corridor. It made sense to build a rail system between those two cities along that route. I just didn't like it being part of the Florida Constitution, that's all. And it would have been a start in building an intra state railroad system linking Florida's biggest cities in a state with a growing population in the 4th largest state. I remember when driving from Miami to West Palm was not the continuous sea of suburbs and cities it is now - and that was in the late 1990s. I'm just saying it is time for the governor and legislature to look at the population growth and transportation needs in Florida. I grew up in Southern California - I know what a car loving culture is. I've also seen California handle its densely populated areas with planning mass transit, especially commuter trains like CalTrain. You can only widen I-75 or I-95 so much...

If it takes a private initiative like this to point out to Tallahassee the benefit, then so much the better. Scott is all about jobs. This would generate them in spades.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yeah, and look at I-4 now. No, the project was killed by Jeb Bush before any real planning started. I-4 is the most congested major road in Florida - it's following the population growth in that Tampa/Orlando corridor. It made sense to build a rail system between those two cities along that route. I just didn't like it being part of the Florida Constitution, that's all. And it would have been a start in building an intra state railroad system linking Florida's biggest cities in a state with a growing population in the 4th largest state. I remember when driving from Miami to West Palm was not the continuous sea of suburbs and cities it is now - and that was in the late 1990s. I'm just saying it is time for the governor and legislature to look at the population growth and transportation needs in Florida. I grew up in Southern California - I know what a car loving culture is. I've also seen California handle its densely populated areas with planning mass transit, especially commuter trains like CalTrain. You can only widen I-75 or I-95 so much...

If it takes a private initiative like this to point out to Tallahassee the benefit, then so much the better. Scott is all about jobs. This would generate them in spades.

I-4 may be congested in term of Florida, but Orlando-Tampa traffic is almost nonexistent in terms of the volume that would be needed to support high speed rail.

A rail system, which already exists between the two cities, is not the same as a high speed rail system. The project was killed by Governor Scott after the project was ready to begin construction. The plan was very far along and it was a waste of money that had people excited because the federal government was going to pay for construction (under assumptions that the project would be rather cheap and not at all go over budget). The plan was to buy trains designed to run at 200 mph and run them at a speed where they averaged about 80 mph. A small burst up above 100 mph does not justify the enormous additional expenses incurred for equipment intended to cruise at twice that speed.

 

[The Mom]

Yeah, and look at I-4 now. No, the project was killed by Jeb Bush before any real planning started. I-4 is the most congested major road in Florida - it's following the population growth in that Tampa/Orlando corridor. It made sense to build a rail system between those two cities along that route. I just didn't like it being part of the Florida Constitution, that's all. And it would have been a start in building an intra state railroad system linking Florida's biggest cities in a state with a growing population in the 4th largest state. I remember when driving from Miami to West Palm was not the continuous sea of suburbs and cities it is now - and that was in the late 1990s. I'm just saying it is time for the governor and legislature to look at the population growth and transportation needs in Florida. I grew up in Southern California - I know what a car loving culture is. I've also seen California handle its densely populated areas with planning mass transit, especially commuter trains like CalTrain. You can only widen I-75 or I-95 so much...

If it takes a private initiative like this to point out to Tallahassee the benefit, then so much the better. Scott is all about jobs. This would generate them in spades.

I really hope that this succeeds (as I said initially) I just pointed out some of the glitches, which include ridership. But if people get to the point where it is either faster (airplanes, light rail, underground metro), easier (more local stops near home, more frequent times), or cheaper (the cost of fuel, autos, and insurance continue to rise) to use public transportation, they will do so.

This is what happened in California. I'm not sure that FL has reached the point where the average resident thinks using public transportation is worth it. But there have been pockets of success here and there. The local "trolley" (actually a bus designed to look like one) has been fairly popular. They are expanding the first Friday one to include downtown. It services all of the popular nightspots and bars in a 3-4 mile radius. Similar to the Miami trolley, and the one in Chattanooga.

 

[Hakunamatata]

AAF is entirely privately financed.

If it is privately financed then why does "everyone" have to contribute?

 

[The Mom]

If it is privately financed then why does "everyone" have to contribute?

The train itself is privately financed. But local public transportation to get to/from the station isn't - except maybe some of the theme parks will provide limited transportation.

And what will happen long term if it isn't profitable? Who will have to pay to keep it running?

 

[Hakunamatata]

The train itself is privately financed. But local public transportation to get to/from the station isn't - except maybe some of the theme parks will provide limited transportation.

And what will happen long term if it isn't profitable? Who will have to pay to keep it running?

I guess that was the point I was trying to make, although not well. Even though/if a portion is totally privately financed, there has to be some skin in the game for others to make it work, so is it truly 100% privately financed since to make it work, public funds would in some form or fashion have to support it.

 

[LAKid53]

I-4 may be congested in term of Florida, but Orlando-Tampa traffic is almost nonexistent in terms of the volume that would be needed to support high speed rail.

A rail system, which already exists between the two cities, is not the same as a high speed rail system. The project was killed by Governor Scott after the project was ready to begin construction. The plan was very far along and it was a waste of money that had people excited because the federal government was going to pay for construction (under assumptions that the project would be rather cheap and not at all go over budget). The plan was to buy trains designed to run at 200 mph and run them at a speed where they averaged about 80 mph. A small burst up above 100 mph does not justify the enormous additional expenses incurred for equipment intended to cruise at twice that speed.

And yet Scott has authorized the spending of nearly $215M for the railroad hub at MCO to connect with All Aboard Florida. Interesting. I'm still saying that Florida can and should build a rail system, both regular and high speed [depending upon the route] between major cities in the state. I'd love it if someone in this state would convince Amtrak to reinstate the Sunset Limited from Jax to Pensacola. Unlike New York (3rd most populated state) and like both CA & Texas, Florida is a big state geographically when you consider driving. Just look at the growth in the last 4 years along the Turnpike due to The Villages. And whose moving to Florida? More retired people. And where are they moving? You guessed it - Central Florida. UCF is now the largest state university in Florida with a student population of over 69,000. That's 13,000 more students than UF which for years was the largest in the SUS system. A clear indication of the growth rate in Central Florida. And if you lumped all of USF campuses together, they would be 2nd. Given the growth in the center of the state as indicated by the size of UCF and the rapid growth of communities like The Villages, it makes sense to have a rail system connecting that part of the state to other major population centers in Florida. Especially given that there is this little theme park (okay 2, I"ll throw in Uni) in the same area. Which is why the group behind All Aboard is building it. It would be nice if the people running the state had the same vision and would al least try to partner with something like this, as opposed to throwing in money at the end - which will probably depend on Scott winning in November.

As PeterAlt said, building something like this will be good for Florida's economy. Just like the hurricanes of 2004/2005 resulted in a construction boom that generated millions in tax dollars over the next year or so. I would be more than happy to vote for a 1/2 penny or penny increase in the sales tax for a well thought out rail plan in Florida. Because those folks visiting Orlando would help pay for it also. And it would mean jobs in an industry in Florida that took a beating in the Great Recession. Win win, right?

 

[LAKid53]

The train itself is privately financed. But local public transportation to get to/from the station isn't - except maybe some of the theme parks will provide limited transportation.

And what will happen long term if it isn't profitable? Who will have to pay to keep it running?

Scott is throwing in $215M for the connection between MCO & the train. A combination of tax dollars/ticket price, etc., will fund operations, just like any other major transportation system. You do realize that the gas taxes you pay at the pump help pay for road costs, right? Not just Florida residents, but anyone purchasing gas at a pump.

You spoke about the car culture in Florida - I grew up in Los Angeles, I know what car culture is. However, if no one starts, nothing will ever be done. Obviously the people behind All Florida think it is viable, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to float the bonds to cover the cost of development and construction.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The train itself is privately financed. But local public transportation to get to/from the station isn't - except maybe some of the theme parks will provide limited transportation.

And what will happen long term if it isn't profitable? Who will have to pay to keep it running?

Like almost all private rail projects of the past, the real estate development is supposed to be part of the whole project. The key will be to not just sell off the land and developments, but hold onto them. People who decide to locate their homes or business adjacent to the railroad will in general pay for the proximity.

And yet Scott has authorized the spending of nearly $215M for the railroad hub at MCO to connect with All Aboard Florida. Interesting. I'm still saying that Florida can and should build a rail system, both regular and high speed [depending upon the route] between major cities in the state. I'd love it if someone in this state would convince Amtrak to reinstate the Sunset Limited from Jax to Pensacola. Unlike New York (3rd most populated state) and like both CA & Texas, Florida is a big state geographically when you consider driving. Just look at the growth in the last 4 years along the Turnpike due to The Villages. And whose moving to Florida? More retired people. And where are they moving? You guessed it - Central Florida. UCF is now the largest state university in Florida with a student population of over 69,000. That's 13,000 more students than UF which for years was the largest in the SUS system. A clear indication of the growth rate in Central Florida. And if you lumped all of USF campuses together, they would be 2nd. Given the growth in the center of the state as indicated by the size of UCF and the rapid growth of communities like The Villages, it makes sense to have a rail system connecting that part of the state to other major population centers in Florida. Especially given that there is this little theme park (okay 2, I"ll throw in Uni) in the same area. Which is why the group behind All Aboard is building it. It would be nice if the people running the state had the same vision and would al least try to partner with something like this, as opposed to throwing in money at the end - which will probably depend on Scott winning in November.

As PeterAlt said, building something like this will be good for Florida's economy. Just like the hurricanes of 2004/2005 resulted in a construction boom that generated millions in tax dollars over the next year or so. I would be more than happy to vote for a 1/2 penny or penny increase in the sales tax for a well thought out rail plan in Florida. Because those folks visiting Orlando would help pay for it also. And it would mean jobs in an industry in Florida that took a beating in the Great Recession. Win win, right?

I have said nothing about rail in Florida being a bad idea. Just that the DOT's Tampa-Orlando project was poorly conceived and would have been an expensive disaster.

 

[LAKid53]

I really hope that this succeeds (as I said initially) I just pointed out some of the glitches, which include ridership. But if people get to the point where it is either faster (airplanes, light rail, underground metro), easier (more local stops near home, more frequent times), or cheaper (the cost of fuel, autos, and insurance continue to rise) to use public transportation, they will do so.

This is what happened in California. I'm not sure that FL has reached the point where the average resident thinks using public transportation is worth it. But there have been pockets of success here and there. The local "trolley" (actually a bus designed to look like one) has been fairly popular. They are expanding the first Friday one to include downtown. It services all of the popular nightspots and bars in a 3-4 mile radius. Similar to the Miami trolley, and the one in Chattanooga.

Part of the problem - coming from someone who just retired after 40 years in state government - is that no one in Tallahassee appears to be studying the population growth in Florida and the resulting impact on transportation [let's just widen I-75]. I agree, California did what it had to do, like build the subway in L.A. to alleviate congestion on the freeways in Southern California, but after the Bullet Train fiasco and the high speed rail, I don't think anyone up in my part of the state had any thought until this group started on All Florida. And then Scott threw in some money to connect the depot in Orlando to MCO (we shall see if that remains since he appears to be leading Crist in the polls). I've been driving to Disney several times each year for the past 4 years. The growth along the Turnpike around The Villages is astounding. I'm not sure how much more South Florida (Miami/Broward/West Palm) can continue to expand without completely paving over the Everglades, which is a national park. Thus, the growth is now in Central Florida. So while there is still some unpaved but viable sections of this state between its major cities (I don't like eminent domain unless absolutely necessary - I think the U.S. Supreme Court go that decision wrong), Florida, i.e., its government, needs to start planning and not look like the lame opportunist Scott did with his announcement. I've just lived in this state too long and have seen close up how the boys in Tallahassee operate to think they will bungle this one. What we need is someone with the vision that Henry Flagler had in building transportation.

 

[LAKid53]

Like almost all private rail projects of the past, the real estate development is supposed to be part of the whole project. The key will be to not just sell off the land and developments, but hold onto them. People who decide to locate their homes or business adjacent to the railroad will in general pay for the proximity.


I have said nothing about rail in Florida being a bad idea. Just that the DOT's Tampa-Orlando project was poorly conceived and would have been an expensive disaster.

And so nothing got done. And this is the part of state government in Florida that kills me. The idea was right, the execution needed work, but now, unless this private venture works out (and we shall see if Scott keeps his promise of $215M), no one will ever consider any type of intra state passenger system in Florida. I've worked in state government way too long and have seen how the boys in Tallahassee work to not be optimistic. But then, I sure hope they prove me wrong.

 

[The Mom]

Scott is throwing in $215M for the connection between MCO & the train. A combination of tax dollars/ticket price, etc., will fund operations, just like any other major transportation system. You do realize that the gas taxes you pay at the pump help pay for road costs, right? Not just Florida residents, but anyone purchasing gas at a pump.

You spoke about the car culture in Florida - I grew up in Los Angeles, I know what car culture is. However, if no one starts, nothing will ever be done. Obviously the people behind All Florida think it is viable, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to float the bonds to cover the cost of development and construction.

Yes, but the people paying this tax (gas) are driving on the roads. The ticket price for the trains would have to cover the cost unless everyone in the state ends up paying towards something they do not use, and may not see a need for having. Unlike things like schools - even though I paid for private school, I can see the need for an educated populous. I have never used emergency services for myself (but have used them for my parents) so I see the general need. The same with police, hospitals, and even our local bus system - which doesn't generate enough revenue to run it, but I still see the need. And I can see the need for more public transportation, so wouldn't mind paying for it.

However, that is not the mindset of the majority - even though referendums may be passed. People who have a cause will go to the polls in greater numbers. The problem can arise when it's time to pay the bill.

As I've said repeatedly, a point has to be reached where public transportation becomes a better option than driving your own vehicle - and I don't think FL is at that point - yet.

And as I said many posts back, if this works, we will see trains connecting the other major areas in the state. If it doesn't, delay things longer. The rest of the FL cities - and even cities in other states - are watching.

 

[LAKid53]

Yes, but the people paying this tax (gas) are driving on the roads. The ticket price for the trains would have to cover the cost unless everyone in the state ends up paying towards something they do not use, and may not see a need for having. Unlike things like schools - even though I paid for private school, I can see the need for an educated populous. I have never used emergency services for myself (but have used them for my parents) so I see the general need. The same with police, hospitals, and even our local bus system - which doesn't generate enough revenue to run it, but I still see the need. And I can see the need for more public transportation, so wouldn't mind paying for it.

However, that is not the mindset of the majority - even though referendums may be passed. People who have a cause will go to the polls in greater numbers. The problem can arise when it's time to pay the bill.

As I've said repeatedly, a point has to be reached where public transportation becomes a better option than driving your own vehicle - and I don't think FL is at that point - yet.

And as I said many posts back, if this works, we will see trains connecting the other major areas in the state. If it doesn't, delay things longer. The rest of the FL cities - and even cities in other states - are watching.

Granted, all good points. Until gas reaches $4/$5 gallon. I know people like living in Florida because of the low taxes and no state income tax, but with the rapid growth in population we seen in the past 5 years or so, especially in Central Florida, someone needs to start planning as the growth in population will exceed surface road capacity. If someone isn't planning on additional transportation to meet this continued growth in population, then land available for roads will have homes/businesses built on it, resulting in more congested roads and when I go to Central Florida, it will be like going home to L.A. - gridlock. I've seen the same happen in the town in which I live - building high density student apartment complexes on roads that cannot be widened to accommodate the increase in traffic resulting from these complexes, especially at peak times, resulting in doubling the amount of time it takes me to drive to and from work, increasing gas consumption and wear and tear on my car, not to mention wear and tear on the road way. If my town had decent public transportation, i.e., buses, you'd bet I'd take it. I'd be happy to shift some of that money that leaves my pocket for gas, repair/maintenance of my car (our roads are full of potholes), parking at working, etc., to develop a good, reliable public transportation system in my town. Given that 60,000 or so of the residents of my town are transient students, I'm sure they'd feel the same.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And so nothing got done. And this is the part of state government in Florida that kills me. The idea was right, the execution needed work, but now, unless this private venture works out (and we shall see if Scott keeps his promise of $215M), no one will ever consider any type of intra state passenger system in Florida. I've worked in state government way too long and have seen how the boys in Tallahassee work to not be optimistic. But then, I sure hope they prove me wrong.

To me a big part of this problem is the dependence states and local communities have on the federal government for funding. There was no option from the federal government to build a new Tampa-Orlando rail corridor that was high speed ready but would use cheaper conventional trains for the mean time.

As I've said repeatedly, a point has to be reached where public transportation becomes a better option than driving your own vehicle - and I don't think FL is at that point - yet.

The one park of the equation that is almost totally ignored is actively making driving miserable. Transit being available is not enough. Every city with a great transit system is still clogged with cars.

Until gas reaches $4/$5 gallon.

Gas prices have proven to be far more inelastic than ever expected. Back when the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail project was still alive a lot of math was being done here discussing its ineffectiveness. I believe it came out that for a family of four looking to go the whole route gas would have to pass $10/gallon before the high speed train become a cost effective choice.