Construction begins on Miami to Orlando high speed rail

[LAKid53]

To me a big part of this problem is the dependence states and local communities have on the federal government for funding. There was no option from the federal government to build a new Tampa-Orlando rail corridor that was high speed ready but would use cheaper conventional trains for the mean time.


The one park of the equation that is almost totally ignored is actively making driving miserable. Transit being available is not enough. Every city with a great transit system is still clogged with cars.


Gas prices have proven to be far more inelastic than ever expected. Back when the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail project was still alive a lot of math was being done here discussing its ineffectiveness. I believe it came out that for a family of four looking to go the whole route gas would have to pass $10/gallon before the high speed train become a cost effective choice.

All very, very valid points. But no reason for the state to not consider rail to alleviate what is quickly becoming gridlock in South Florida. I'm sure the most frequent posters on this thread, like me, live in Florida. How many more times can I-75 (I've not driven I-95 since the mid to late 1990s, so I cannot comment with accuracy on its current state) be widen? It seems to be in a constant state of repair due to the high volume of traffic. Florida does have a good freight rail system, so why not a comparable passenger one? It takes years to plan and construct major transportation like this (please Florida, DO NOT take the model of Amtrak and use the existing freight rail lines), so by the time the Legislature gets around to doing something, I probably will be so old I will be living in a nursing home and won't care or dead. Which is why I want that All Florida Train to succeed so we will see more.

 

[lazyboy97o]

All very, very valid points. But no reason for the state to not consider rail to alleviate what is quickly becoming gridlock in South Florida. I'm sure the most frequent posters on this thread, like me, live in Florida. How many more times can I-75 (I've not driven I-95 since the mid to late 1990s, so I cannot comment with accuracy on its current state) be widen? It seems to be in a constant state of repair due to the high volume of traffic. Florida does have a good freight rail system, so why not a comparable passenger one? It takes years to plan and construct major transportation like this (please Florida, DO NOT take the model of Amtrak and use the existing freight rail lines), so by the time the Legislature gets around to doing something, I probably will be so old I will be living in a nursing home and won't care or dead. Which is why I want that All Florida Train to succeed so we will see more.

Well you're going to have to find a very charismatic, articulate and determined politician who can convince the people of the state to self-finance such projects so that they are not tied to demands from Washington, DC. Or at least get gas taxes opened up, but the love of widening has created the situation where gas taxes are no longer creating surpluses and cannot keep up with the overbuilt road infrastructure.

I'm not opposed to freight lines being switched back to passenger-freight lines. It is probably not so much the case in Florida, but in a lot of places those existing lines are what created the original development patterns. They were paralleled by US highways and interstates, and remain the historical roots of communities. Why spend the huge sums needed to acquire another parallel right-of-way that will not go to where people are now? The other thing that drives me nuts is the rails-to-trails projects that envision future light rail transit but as a first step rip out the existing tracks.

 

[CDavid]

AAF is entirely privately financed.

Well, it is except for $1.5 to $1.8 billion in federal funding in the form of a RRIF loan. Oh, and the $215 million supposedly for a terminal at Orlando International Airport.

The Miami to Orlando description is misleading as well, since it will require a bus connection from Cocoa to Orlando. Depending on approval of the federal government loan, tracks could be constructed from Cocoa to Orlando, but not before 2018 at the earliest. If the loan is not approved (and I have reason to doubt that it will, though I haven't heard anything recently) I'd look for the project to fall apart anyway. Nobody really seems to know FEC's true motivations behind this little project, unless they thought it was the only way to secure the $1.8 billion funding request.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a private passenger operation succeed, but there are some big questions surrounding this proposal. Then there is the 'polite fiction' about it having the potential to operate at a profit, or at least without a subsidy. No passenger railroad in the world operates without a subsidy, and this one won't either. State or federal funding to support increased passenger train service between Miami and Orlando (just two trains each direction per day, at present) should certainly be explored, but we shouldn't pretend this project is being constructed to be a profitable, private venture. FEC surely knows that.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Then there is the 'polite fiction' about it having the potential to operate at a profit, or at least without a subsidy. No passenger railroad in the world operates without a subsidy, and this one won't either.

Companies like MTR of Hong Kong are able to operate at a profit like past American railroads because they consider themselves to be very much in the real estate business. That's the big problem with most people, they look at rails as something totally unconnected. Passenger rail alone does not work too well but passenger rail and real estate has a long history.

 

[LAKid53]

Well you're going to have to find a very charismatic, articulate and determined politician who can convince the people of the state to self-finance such projects so that they are not tied to demands from Washington, DC. Or at least get gas taxes opened up, but the love of widening has created the situation where gas taxes are no longer creating surpluses and cannot keep up with the overbuilt road infrastructure.

I'm not opposed to freight lines being switched back to passenger-freight lines. It is probably not so much the case in Florida, but in a lot of places those existing lines are what created the original development patterns. They were paralleled by US highways and interstates, and remain the historical roots of communities. Why spend the huge sums needed to acquire another parallel right-of-way that will not go to where people are now? The other thing that drives me nuts is the rails-to-trails projects that envision future light rail transit but as a first step rip out the existing tracks.

We are going to have to do something in Florida, given the projected population increase over the next decade and where that population will gravitate. And yes, I agree, we need someone who can get it accomplished - none of the current candidates fit the bill. Otherwise we will be the 3rd most populated state (we don't have much to take over NY, based upon 2013 figures) with a rapidly growing retired population parked right in the middle of the state in The Villages. Nothing will get done after that, I'm afraid.

I'm not a fan of freight/passenger use lines. Amtrak uses the same freight lines and the freight trains have priority, so it is very common for the Amtrak train to have to park on a side rail and wait. I've ridden Amtrak several times and this is the reason Amtrak doesn't necessarily guarantee an arrival time, just a 1-2 hour window. If rail is unable to make passenger transportation efficient, then it will fail. If people riding a passenger train (not a commuter type rail) have to pull over several times along the way for freight trains, they may not want to ride again. However, I agree, we don't want to have to construct rail lines to meet the transportation needs of the population configuration that resulted from the interstate highway system of the 1950s. Maybe if this succeeds, someone in state government will look at it, look at what CA did with CalTrain and start developing something in Florida.

 

[LAKid53]

Companies like MTR of Hong Kong are able to operate at a profit like past American railroads because they consider themselves to be very much in the real estate business. That's the big problem with most people, they look at rails as something totally unconnected. Passenger rail alone does not work too well but passenger rail and real estate has a long history.

Very true, says the grandchild of an engineer who worked on the passenger trains out west. How else could people live in Connecticut and work in Manhattan?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm not a fan of freight/passenger use lines. Amtrak uses the same freight lines and the freight trains have priority, so it is very common for the Amtrak train to have to park on a side rail and wait. I've ridden Amtrak several times and this is the reason Amtrak doesn't necessarily guarantee an arrival time, just a 1-2 hour window. If rail is unable to make passenger transportation efficient, then it will fail. If people riding a passenger train (not a commuter type rail) have to pull over several times along the way for freight trains, they may not want to ride again. However, I agree, we don't want to have to construct rail lines to meet the transportation needs of the population configuration that resulted from the interstate highway system of the 1950s. Maybe if this succeeds, someone in state government will look at it, look at what CA did with CalTrain and start developing something in Florida.

Amtrak's problem is that they are totally at the mercy of the freight companies. Especially on a a local level I think creative agreements could be made. Maybe let the freight companies get a cut of the development that will be reinvigorated along the right of way. Or maybe have the transit agency build belt lines around population centers in exchange for the existing roads. My point about highways was that many of them in areas that were more developed did follow railroads, so why build a second railroad that is less convenient than the original.

 

[LAKid53]

Well, it is except for $1.5 to $1.8 billion in federal funding in the form of a RRIF loan. Oh, and the $215 million supposedly for a terminal at Orlando International Airport.

The Miami to Orlando description is misleading as well, since it will require a bus connection from Cocoa to Orlando. Depending on approval of the federal government loan, tracks could be constructed from Cocoa to Orlando, but not before 2018 at the earliest. If the loan is not approved (and I have reason to doubt that it will, though I haven't heard anything recently) I'd look for the project to fall apart anyway. Nobody really seems to know FEC's true motivations behind this little project, unless they thought it was the only way to secure the $1.8 billion funding request.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a private passenger operation succeed, but there are some big questions surrounding this proposal. Then there is the 'polite fiction' about it having the potential to operate at a profit, or at least without a subsidy. No passenger railroad in the world operates without a subsidy, and this one won't either. State or federal funding to support increased passenger train service between Miami and Orlando (just two trains each direction per day, at present) should certainly be explored, but we shouldn't pretend this project is being constructed to be a profitable, private venture. FEC surely knows that.

Both the state and federal government invest in infrastructure all the time, well they used to. I just think that we are quickly getting to the point in Florida that widening the major roads I-10, I-4, I-75 and I-95 in order to move the increasing population of this state and the visitors to it is not working. I-75 is constantly in repair. Why? Because it is the major road feeding traffic from North Florida and beyond to Southwest Florida. And we have more and more trucks using it. If people drive from the Northeast to Orlando, what road do they usually take? And then what do they connect to? I've been paying tolls on the Turnpike and I've lived here nearly 50 years. First the tolls were to pay for the road (which has long been paid for) and now they are needed to help pay for the upkeep.

It's time we stop thinking the only way to move around this state is by car and look at where our population is growing and what is the most effective means to transport people between the major population centers in the state. Miami/Broward/Palm Beach have become one county, by the looks of it as you drive on I-95. I am sure people live in Broward and commute to Dade or vice versa or even live in South Palm Beach County and commute south to Broward/Dade for work. Rail makes the perfect sense in this situation. And something the state needs to investigate.

We put a man on the moon in less than 10 years. We can build passenger rails in Florida. We just need those with the power to make those decisions to have the will. Otherwise we will have nothing but roads in Florida and will have lost, other than Disney, those things people who are a major component of our economy come to Florida to see. And old people, lots of old people.

 

[LAKid53]

Amtrak's problem is that they are totally at the mercy of the freight companies. Especially on a level I think creative agreements could be made. Maybe let the freight companies get a cut of the development that will be reinvigorated along the right of way. Or maybe have the transit agency build belt lines around population centers in exchange for the existing roads. My point about highways was that many of them in areas that were more developed did follow railroads, so why build a second railroad that is less convenient than the original.

Good point, as long as the deal is more favorable to passenger trains than Amtrak received. I just believe that given the shape of Florida and how North Florida outside of Jacksonville has limited plane service (I have to either drive several hours to another airport or go to Atlanta first to fly to Orlando - a direct flight would be about 45 minutes in the air), developing an intra state passenger rail system, starting with the heavily populated areas in South Florida - Tampa, Orlando, Dade/Broward/Palm Beach - is a key to alleviating the increased congestion on our major roads around the state. However, I think your previous post is accurate - none of this will happen until it is a nightmare to drive from major city to major city in this state. I cannot imagine that South Florida is not quickly reaching that level.

 

[gsimpson]

The average speed would be 78.3 MPH, which is just a tad faster than the legal driving speed. Then, you would have to factor in time to/from the station at each end. So it really wouldn't be faster for most people.

Almost all of the existing freight rail in this country is limited to 79 mph or lower. In order to keep the cost even marginally acceptable they are going to be using almost entirely existing rail, to go for a real "bullet train" would require putting all new rail in the ground and since freight is not going to allow a line such as that to be out of service for months of construction that would mean getting a whole new easement and all the real estate battles that would precipitate.

 

[MinnieM123]

This thread is fascinating, and the subject is far more complex in Florida than I ever imagined. (I'm not a resident of FL.)

I think that residents of a state, that have been accustomed to using their own vehicles for getting around, are probably a hard sell for public transportation. It's different in the Northeast, for example. Many people, including myself, grew up traveling around on buses, subways, commuter rail trains, and trolleys. Even now, working in Boston, I only take public transit to and from work every day. The only time I use my car is on the weekends for local shopping, etc. (Plus, I don't like driving; I only drive my little car very early on weekend mornings, when there's no traffic out there! )

@The Mom pointed out, until the majority of residents in FL can be convinced that public transport will be cost effective and convenient, I think that rail development will continue to face an uphill battle. I really wish that wasn't the case.

 

[LAKid53]

This thread is fascinating, and the subject is far more complex in Florida than I ever imagined. (I'm not a resident of FL.)

I think that residents of a state, that have been accustomed to using their own vehicles for getting around, are probably a hard sell for public transportation. It's different in the Northeast, for example. Many people, including myself, grew up traveling around on buses, subways, commuter rail trains, and trolleys. Even now, working in Boston, I only take public transit to and from work every day. The only time I use my car is on the weekends for local shopping, etc. (Plus, I don't like driving; I only drive my little car very early on weekend mornings, when there's no traffic out there! )

@The Mom pointed out, until the majority of residents in FL can be convinced that public transport will be cost effective and convenient, I think that rail development will continue to face an uphill battle. I really wish that wasn't the case.

Me too, as I watch more and more of Florida become surface road to handle the volume of traffic due to the growth in population and visitors, especially to Central Florida.

 

[PeterAlt]

Well, it is except for $1.5 to $1.8 billion in federal funding in the form of a RRIF loan. Oh, and the $215 million supposedly for a terminal at Orlando International Airport.

The Miami to Orlando description is misleading as well, since it will require a bus connection from Cocoa to Orlando. Depending on approval of the federal government loan, tracks could be constructed from Cocoa to Orlando, but not before 2018 at the earliest. If the loan is not approved (and I have reason to doubt that it will, though I haven't heard anything recently) I'd look for the project to fall apart anyway. Nobody really seems to know FEC's true motivations behind this little project, unless they thought it was the only way to secure the $1.8 billion funding request.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a private passenger operation succeed, but there are some big questions surrounding this proposal. Then there is the 'polite fiction' about it having the potential to operate at a profit, or at least without a subsidy. No passenger railroad in the world operates without a subsidy, and this one won't either. State or federal funding to support increased passenger train service between Miami and Orlando (just two trains each direction per day, at present) should certainly be explored, but we shouldn't pretend this project is being constructed to be a profitable, private venture. FEC surely knows that.

You are misinformed. They are building tracks from Cocoa to Orlando. And so far they have raised their own money by selling bonds.

 

[PeterAlt]

If it is privately financed then why does "everyone" have to contribute?

I was talking about local transit. If local transit is to get built, everyone should see eye to eye with it. AAF is not dependent on this. There will be a car rental location at the Orlando station and the Disney Magical Express is there.

 

[PeterAlt]

My apology for just skimping through this. I'll go back and re-read everyone's post here.

 

[LAKid53]

I was talking about local transit. If local transit is to get built, everyone should see eye to eye with it. AAF is not dependent on this. There will be a car rental location at the Orlando station and the Disney Magical Express is there.

Yeah, I don't think Disney will have a problem figuring out how to collect its guests from the train. State & local government, might be a different story, especially if Rick Scott backs out on the $215M.

 

[LAKid53]

My apology for just skimping through this. I'll go back and re-read everyone's post here.

There's been some interesting conversation on this thread. As a long time Florida resident, I'm most concerned about the attitude of "let's just widen it" or "build more" when it comes to surface roads without the thought of what that will do to the state. Florida gets its water from ground water - think the Floridan Aquifer. The withdrawls from the aquifer in South Florida could not be compensated with rain water at a rate fast enough to prevent salt water intrusion (hence the nasty taste of tap water in Tampa). In addition, we were paving over those lands referred to as high recharge (get the water back into the aquifers faster than other land) since these were also prime for development - housing, commercial, etc. One of the causes of sink holes, along with the geology and karst of Florida, is the depletion of the aquifers. In the long run, if we pave over land for roads because of the "let's just widen or build more" attitude that is prevalent in Florida, we are going to impact the ability of the state to provide clean sources of drinking water to its citizens and visitors. And throw into that mix the droughts we've had in the past decade (not every year, but periods of a few years, enough that state planners are getting worried) or droughts that reach the magnitude of what California is currently experiencing (and Florida doesn't produce nearly the amount of agricultural products that CA does - it's not the world's 8th largest economy for no reason), we've got a serious problem. A problem that has worried a couple of South Florida legislators to the point that they considered - hopefully not seriously - piping water from us folks here in North Florida (where the aquifer is closer to the surface) to supply water needy South Florida. Fortunately, smarter folks killed that idea quickly. So one of the ways to preserve the water supply and the land that feeds it and feeds us is to find better methods of mass transit between the State's major metropolitan areas. Like commuter rails. But someone up in Tallahassee needs to take the lead on this. Or I'm going to wake up one morning in 20 years and the only green space will be the weed in the crack in my front sidewalk. There's so much more I could talk about the stress of a growing population and the needs of transportation for that population and the impact on the fragile ecosystem that is Florida and a source of income for the state, but this is not the forum for that lengthy discussion.

 

[CDavid]

You are misinformed. They are building tracks from Cocoa to Orlando. And so far they have raised their own money by selling bonds.

Even All Aboard Florida admits that the Cocoa to Orlando right-of-way cannot be completed in time for the claimed start of service in 2016, so yes, they are planning a bus connection, at least initially. Unless the RRIF loan is approved, there is little chance it will ever be built.

 

[PeterAlt]

Even All Aboard Florida admits that the Cocoa to Orlando right-of-way cannot be completed in time for the claimed start of service in 2016, so yes, they are planning a bus connection, at least initially. Unless the RRIF loan is approved, there is little chance it will ever be built.

They already have the lease for the land. It's going to happen. They said they will build these tracks with or without that loan. They just sold an additional $400 million in bonds. On top of that, they have signed contracts with the airport and the expressway authority, as well as a big land owner in the area.

 

[IanDLBZF]

Just wanted to stop by and say that a LOT has progressed since this thread was updated.
All Aboard Florida is now doing business as "BrightLine" and has just started revenue service in South Florida (between West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale) and will be expanding to Miami sometime within the next 3-4 months. Orlando expansion construction getting underway with an opening date of 2020.