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Construction begins on Miami to Orlando high speed rail
- Thread starter PeterAlt
- Start date
mp2bill
Well-Known Member
Two things: I thought this was canceled (although at the time, it was from Tampa to Orlando), and it's sad that "The maximum speed will be 125 mph. It is not a bullet train or high-speed rail like the Train á Grande Vitesse (TGV) in France that resembles a rocket on rails."
It's sad that in the land of unlimited potential, we've settled for less than the best.
Also, is the technology that's being used on this railway different from that that would have been used on the Tampa to Orlando railway?
It's sad that in the land of unlimited potential, we've settled for less than the best.
Also, is the technology that's being used on this railway different from that that would have been used on the Tampa to Orlando railway?
The Tampa to Orlando train, i.e., the I-4 train was to be a bullet train running along I-4 until then-Governor Jeb Bush got the citizens to undo their vote for the constitutional amendment to build the train. I thought the train was an excellent idea to relieve a heavily congested corridor but that it didn't belong in the Florida Constitution. There was talk about high speed rail in South Florida to be paid with federal funds, but Governor Rick Scott nixed that, if I remember. I wish Amtrak would reconnect that portion of the Sunset Limited between Orlando/Jax to New Orleans - the tracks have been repaired for several years now after Hurricane Katrina. I've never understood why a state with as dense a population in South Florida (I mean the entire portion - both coasts and center from Orlando south) and a MAJOR attraction in Central Florida doesn't have some additional method of transportation, other than surface roads, to access it.
Wouldn't it be nice if you lived in Miami to get on a train to Orlando, rather than 1-95/Turnpike? Even if it is only going at 125mph, that's still faster than driving on I-95 bumper to bumper.
Wouldn't it be nice if you lived in Miami to get on a train to Orlando, rather than 1-95/Turnpike? Even if it is only going at 125mph, that's still faster than driving on I-95 bumper to bumper.
I would like to see this succeed, but unless they have plans to build convenient auxiliary transportation options, it might not. How do you get to the train in Miami? How do you get from the train station to WDW and US/IOA, etc in Orlando?
If you have to rent a car in Orlando, and the train isn't faster than driving, people will still drive. Heck, if it isn't any faster than driving, and there is no fast, reliable connecting transportation at the other end people would still be better off driving. Some people might have to go out of their way to get to the station, which would add time to the trip. How much would it cost to park, or to get to the station by cab or bus?
Public transportation only works when the whole infrastructure is coordinated, which is why it works so much better in cities where public transportation predated individual automobiles. Unfortunately, Florida is , by and large, not one of those areas. Our population boom came after cars and A/C, so most people live in areas that never had public transportation outside of the urban core. Bus routes have been extended in many areas, but things are so spread out that it takes far longer to use them (it would have taken my children over an hour to get to their school via public transportation, vs 10-15 mins by car) so only those who have a short trip on the same line, or do not have a car, use it.
In major cities, it can take longer to drive due to traffic congestion, and parking is expensive, etc so taking a train or bus makes more sense.
If you have to rent a car in Orlando, and the train isn't faster than driving, people will still drive. Heck, if it isn't any faster than driving, and there is no fast, reliable connecting transportation at the other end people would still be better off driving. Some people might have to go out of their way to get to the station, which would add time to the trip. How much would it cost to park, or to get to the station by cab or bus?
Public transportation only works when the whole infrastructure is coordinated, which is why it works so much better in cities where public transportation predated individual automobiles. Unfortunately, Florida is , by and large, not one of those areas. Our population boom came after cars and A/C, so most people live in areas that never had public transportation outside of the urban core. Bus routes have been extended in many areas, but things are so spread out that it takes far longer to use them (it would have taken my children over an hour to get to their school via public transportation, vs 10-15 mins by car) so only those who have a short trip on the same line, or do not have a car, use it.
In major cities, it can take longer to drive due to traffic congestion, and parking is expensive, etc so taking a train or bus makes more sense.
The average speed would be 78.3 MPH, which is just a tad faster than the legal driving speed. Then, you would have to factor in time to/from the station at each end. So it really wouldn't be faster for most people.
Well, I must disagree somewhat, having lived in Florida nearly 50 years, both South and North. Lived in North Florida prior to the expansion of I-10 and I can tell you THAT road definitely contributed to the increased population between Jax and Pensacola. Can you imagine the only way to get to the beaches along the Panhandle, like Destin, is U.S. 90? Or the only way south to Tampa/Orlando would still be 27? I take 27 just because I like the scenic route but if I was just concerned about time, it would be I-10 to I-75 to the Turnpike in a little over 4 hours. And I-75 is quickly becoming a moving parking lot at certain points.
California's population density certainly preceded CalTrain, BART, the ferrys and every other major non-surface road method of transportation. So why cannot the Florida Legislature be as forward thinking and look at the triangle that is Miami, Tampa, Orlando and develop plans for high speed rail or some form of rail system between its 3 largest cities? Especially when one of those cities is, as Disney PR likes to put it, the most visited theme park in the world. I am sure Disney would be happy to work with the folks designing the rail system to insure some form of transportation from the train depot in Orlando to WDW. After all, they do it from the Orlando Airport to your Disney Resort or Port Canaveral for a Disney Cruise.
My parents live in Marin County, California. We NEVER drove the car into San Francisco because parking was at least $20/hour if you could find it. Always drove the car to the closest ferry terminal and took the ferry across the Bay into the City and then bus, trolley or just walked to where ever we wanted to go. Parking at the ferry terminal was free and the round trip ferry ride was under $5.00.
The same can be done in Florida with better public transportation. However, there has to be the will in the Florida Legislature to do so....
Here's a rendering of what downtown Miami will look like with the station complete and all the adjacent developments now under construction. Notice how everything nicely connects via the Metromover automated people mover system. The rendering is just the immediate area of the Miami station. There are other mega developments to the south and north of the rendering also under construction. All link into the Metromover system. All are extremely Disney-like and futuristic. Miami will be an incredible city when it's all said and done!
The station is on the bottom middle.
The station is #5 in the above rendering.
For more renderings, go to http://www.themallatmiamiworldcenter.com.
The station is on the bottom middle.
The station is #5 in the above rendering.
For more renderings, go to http://www.themallatmiamiworldcenter.com.
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The Orlando area theme parks (or even local transportation) could solve the problem - if they chose to do so (or had the money) The bigger problem is at the other end.
I could take a train to Orlando - but I would have to drive 30 minutes north to do so, and leave my car. Then take 3 hrs by train. Then need transportation at the other end. Or I could get in my car, and drive south for 3 hrs and park at my resort.
And I live downtown! It would be even harder for someone who lives in the suburbs. Pretty much impossible without a private way to get to the train station.
Before the downtown terminal was closed back in the late 70s, I could have taken a cab or bus. Even earlier, I could have taken the streetcar.
There also has to be the will of the Florida taxpayer!
I could take a train to Orlando - but I would have to drive 30 minutes north to do so, and leave my car. Then take 3 hrs by train. Then need transportation at the other end. Or I could get in my car, and drive south for 3 hrs and park at my resort.
And I live downtown! It would be even harder for someone who lives in the suburbs. Pretty much impossible without a private way to get to the train station.
Before the downtown terminal was closed back in the late 70s, I could have taken a cab or bus. Even earlier, I could have taken the streetcar.
There also has to be the will of the Florida taxpayer!
I'm afraid that we are in a Catch-22 situation as far as public transportation in suburban areas. People don't use even the limited amount because it isn't convenient. Taxpayers don't want to pay for expansion because not enough people are using what presently exists. Unfortunately, efforts to expand options are sometimes met with indifference by the population (The Skyway in JAX) because of a lack of connecting options.
The planned train will work for people who live in and near downtown Miami. But are there enough of them going back and forth to Orlando to make it pay for itself? The rest of the state will be watching very carefully.
There are two generations of FL residents who grew up with private transportation being the norm. It's going to take at least that long to change the mindset of "go where you want, when you want, door to door."
The planned train will work for people who live in and near downtown Miami. But are there enough of them going back and forth to Orlando to make it pay for itself? The rest of the state will be watching very carefully.
There are two generations of FL residents who grew up with private transportation being the norm. It's going to take at least that long to change the mindset of "go where you want, when you want, door to door."
It's a matter of everyone in the community agreeing on a plan to get it done. It would involve the local governments, the state, possibly the Federal government, the big "players" (i.e. Disney and Universal), local businesses, etc. There has to be a will to contribute in the form of taxes (by both tourists and the residents) and in the form of contributions (by the big players).
Generally tourists don't have much of a choice when it comes to taxes because they are added to things like hotels, rental cars, etc. Tourists contribute by coming to the location. I think high speed rail, for the most part, benefits the few at the expense of the many.
Which is why the mindset of the average citizen would have to change. Average resident : "Why would I want to pay for something that I'll never use that really wouldn't affect my life?" Unlike public education - you might not use it, but it's nice to have people who can read etc. living around you. Big Player : "Why would I invest in something that might lose money, looking at other projects of this type?"
Actually, the big players are more than willing to contribute, if there was a plan even on the table.
As for why the residents would want to. One very big word. Jobs.
Let me elaborate. Transit brings people (customers) in. That's why the big players like it. If it brings people in, it helps the economy. If it helps the economy, jobs are created. That's worth a penny sales tax for the jobs that will be created.
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lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
This is actually higher speed rail. It is cheaper, more conventional rail travel. Its the sort of thing that should for Tampa to Orlando, since that was like buying a Ferrari to drive in clogged city traffic. This is also a privately funded project by a local freight line, the Florida East Coast Railway who built the original lines down the Atlantic coast including the route to Key West.
What also makes this project different than most recent American projects is that real estate is again a component. Most transit projects today try to connect existing, sprawling development that was intentionally designed to make mass transit fail. This project, like ones in the past, included an active real estate development component where high densities will be built near stations. As part of a new wave of mass transit projects in this country, it is not about convincing this in the suburbs to ride but instead rebuilding our urban communities for those who appreciate urbanism.
Which big players? I haven't heard any come forward and say they are willing to pay for this.
I disagree about the jobs issue. Most residents do want more jobs - as long as someone else pays for them. If told that an expanded transportation system would increase their taxes they tend to have a different opinion.
Most local residents (around here) want better public services - but balked at what would have been an increase of less than $250/year for most taxpayers.
Cities that have systems like these have half cent or 1 cent surtax added to their sales tax. Since this would benefit the tourist industry, you can concentrate the tax only in the resort areas. You can have a hotel room tax. In West Palm Beach, that's how we pay for our convention center.
jt04
Well-Known Member
A lot of young people are choosing to be carless. And with new transportation options such as Uber it makes that a viable option now. Cheap Uber ride to downtown station and train to Orlando. No doubt there will be options for mass transit from MCO to Uni and WDW quite soon. It is already being talked about.
Everything is changing so fast it is almost impossible to keep up. However, this new privately funded transportation system, should be a success.
I might add that Miami is about to experience a huge growth phase that will also make the train not only a success but a real necessity. IMO.
AAF is entirely privately financed.
Thank you - you got what I meant about changing the "mindset" of residents. It will take a generation or two, but it can happen.
I moved here from an area that had good public transportation, and my husband and I could get by with one car for getting out of the city - or trips to the beer store. When we moved to NE FL we found that it was impossible to live comfortably without two cars - things were just too far apart. Add in a couple of kids, and it was daily commuting back and forth to school, activities, etc.
My daughter also had to drive and have her own car to get back & forth to school. She brought one to college in her junior year, and took it to DC with her. But after a couple of years, she found that she didn't really need it, so sold it and bought a zipcar membership.
She is overseas, but in an area with good public transportation. My son has "good public transportation" on his "must have" list.
I put less than 5000 mi per year on my car, with most of it being long drives to the other end of the state, or out of state. I can go for days without driving, as there are things within walking distance.
But this has only happened in the last couple of years. I am seeing more and more young people moving back into the "urban core" from the suburbs.