News Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[TP2000]

From your friends over in the Disneyland forum version of this basic conversation, I offer this...

Cocktail Napkin math, just before happy hour (San Diego time) when the napkins and the mind are still crisp...

Hourly Capacity from Google:

Disneyland Rivers of America Hourly Capacity = 2,700 riders per hour
Mark Twain Riverboat = 750 riders per hour (250 per trip, three trips per hour)
Columbia Sailing Ship = 600 riders per hour (200 per trip, three trips per hour)
Canoes = 600 riders per hour (roughly 100 riders per canoe per hour, Disneyland operates 6 canoes on busy days)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and Disneyland can operate 3 rafts on busy days)

Magic Kingdom Rivers of America Hourly Capacity if TDO Was Smart = 2,600 Riders Per Hour
Riverboat I and II = 1500 riders per hour, (250 per trip per boat, six trips per hour operating both boats)
Mike Fink Keelboats = 350 riders per hour (30 riders per trip, twelve trips per hour with three boats operating)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and WDW used to operate up to 3 rafts on busy days)

Cars Land East In 2028 = 2,000 Riders Per Hour
Radiator Springs Racers = 1500 riders per hour
Average C Ticket Spinner = 500 riders per hour?

So instead of rebuilding all the lost ride capacity at WDW's Rivers of America, and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour and then also building a Cars Land East with three new rides beyond Big Thunder Mountain to add in an additional 2,500 riders per hour from Cars Land East....

TDO is bulldozing the Rivers of America, giving up on that existing infrastructure and potential for 2,500 riders per hour, and replacing it with only 2 new rides that will get less riders per hour than the Rivers of America did in the 1970's to 1990's.

And we're supposed to pretend that Josh D'Amaro and the existing WDI and TDO executives aren't idiots? These current park execs are not showmen, and they are bad at hospitality for their paying guests. Plain and simple.

 

[Incomudro]

Is it just me or does the new Cars E ticket look really devoid of substance? And to think it’s only going to get worse as budgets are cut…

I think the worst part is that if the ride system turns out to be the trackless system people have shown in the YouTube videos, this ride is going to move pretty slowly.

 

[peter11435]

I’ve got one thing to throw out there -

Supposedly Monsters Inc. is not 100% sure on location and how it gets implemented. Multiple sites have been considered (as evident in the artwork).

There’s got to be multiple designs on the drawing board for this attraction - I’m quite positive there is a design that keeps the riverboat. Meaning cars still happens and the riverboat stays.

I know it’s a long shot, but it’s in the world of possibilities.

The boat is done

 

[peter11435]

From your friends over in the Disneyland forum version of this basic conversation, I offer this...

Cocktail Napkin math, just before happy hour (San Diego time) when the napkins and the mind are still crisp...

Hourly Capacity from Google:

Disneyland Rivers of America Hourly Capacity = 2,700 riders per hour
Mark Twain Riverboat = 750 riders per hour (250 per trip, three trips per hour)
Columbia Sailing Ship = 600 riders per hour (200 per trip, three trips per hour)
Canoes = 600 riders per hour (roughly 100 riders per canoe per hour, Disneyland operates 6 canoes on busy days)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and Disneyland can operate 3 rafts on busy days)

Magic Kingdom Rivers of America Hourly Capacity if TDO Was Smart = 2,600 Riders Per Hour
Riverboat I and II = 1500 riders per hour, (250 per trip per boat, six trips per hour operating both boats)
Mike Fink Keelboats = 350 riders per hour (30 riders per trip, twelve trips per hour with three boats operating)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and WDW used to operate up to 3 rafts on busy days)

Cars Land East In 2028 = 2,000 Riders Per Hour
Radiator Springs Racers = 1500 riders per hour
Average C Ticket Spinner = 500 riders per hour?

So instead of rebuilding all the lost ride capacity at WDW's Rivers of America, and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour and then also building a Cars Land East with three new rides beyond Big Thunder Mountain to add in an additional 2,500 riders per hour from Cars Land East....

TDO is bulldozing the Rivers of America, giving up completely on that existing infrastructure and potential for 2,500 riders per hour, and replacing it with two new rides that will get less riders per hour than the Rivers of America did in the 1970's to 1990's.

And we're supposed to pretend that Josh D'Amaro and the existing WDI and TDO executives aren't idiots? These current park execs are not showmen, and they are bad at hospitality for their paying guests. Plain and simple.

The problem with your math is that even with only one riverboat running only twice per hour they can’t even half fill the thing.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The boat is done

It ain’t done till it’s done.

 

[mgf]

From your friends over in the Disneyland forum version of this basic conversation, I offer this...

Cocktail Napkin math, just before happy hour (San Diego time) when the napkins and the mind are still crisp...

Hourly Capacity from Google:

.....

Potential capacity.... that is dramatically underutilized is < fully utilized capacity

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The problem with your math is that even with only one riverboat running only twice per hour they can’t even half fill the thing.

If you read the entire post - “and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour”

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

“But it was one of the first attractions to let us drive!” “But it’s the perfect transition from Fantasyland to Tomorrowland!” But it’s what Walt wanted for us!” “But it was such a calm retreat from the hustle and bustle of the fast paced rides!” “But why didn’t it go somewhere else!”

If it’s not original IP in net new land, brace for the riot. The older and emptier the attraction it’s replacing, the louder the riot.

Exactly what I was saying. I've seen people talking about how much of a waste TSI has been forever. I've also heard people say that they would also fill in the river to put a full on attraction in there. Me personally, I think this attraction will look pretty cool as long as they hide the cars themselves from the HM queue which the concept art clearly shows them doing so. Frontierland was struggling for a while now imo and was the 2nd weakest land for me in the park. I've been on TSI/Riverboat maybe twice. When I heard about this news, there was no part of me that wanted to "rush down" to see it one last time. It's time has been up for years in my opinion, it's simply fixing up an underutilized plot of land with an IP that is poorly represented in this resort and finding a way to make it fit decently.

 

[mgf]

I’ve got one thing to throw out there -

Supposedly Monsters Inc. is not 100% sure on location and how it gets implemented. Multiple sites have been considered (as evident in the artwork).

There’s got to be multiple designs on the drawing board for this attraction - I’m quite positive there is a design that keeps the riverboat. Meaning cars still happens and the riverboat stays.

I know it’s a long shot, but it’s in the world of possibilities.

I agree I think it stays but stationary and potentially not guest accessible (think a set piece on the rivers around Big Thunder).

 

[peter11435]

It ain’t done till it’s done.

I assure you. It’s done.

Don’t get people’s hopes up.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

From your friends over in the Disneyland forum version of this basic conversation, I offer this...

Cocktail Napkin math, just before happy hour (San Diego time) when the napkins and the mind are still crisp...

Hourly Capacity from Google:

Disneyland Rivers of America Hourly Capacity = 2,700 riders per hour
Mark Twain Riverboat = 750 riders per hour (250 per trip, three trips per hour)
Columbia Sailing Ship = 600 riders per hour (200 per trip, three trips per hour)
Canoes = 600 riders per hour (roughly 100 riders per canoe per hour, Disneyland operates 6 canoes on busy days)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and Disneyland can operate 3 rafts on busy days)

Magic Kingdom Rivers of America Hourly Capacity if TDO Was Smart = 2,600 Riders Per Hour
Riverboat I and II = 1500 riders per hour, (250 per trip per boat, six trips per hour operating both boats)
Mike Fink Keelboats = 350 riders per hour (30 riders per trip, twelve trips per hour with three boats operating)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and WDW used to operate up to 3 rafts on busy days)

Cars Land East In 2028 = 2,000 Riders Per Hour
Radiator Springs Racers = 1500 riders per hour
Average C Ticket Spinner = 500 riders per hour?

So instead of rebuilding all the lost ride capacity at WDW's Rivers of America, and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour and then also building a Cars Land East with three new rides beyond Big Thunder Mountain to add in an additional 2,500 riders per hour from Cars Land East....

TDO is bulldozing the Rivers of America, giving up on that existing infrastructure and potential for 2,500 riders per hour, and replacing it with only 2 new rides that will get less riders per hour than the Rivers of America did in the 1970's to 1990's.

And we're supposed to pretend that Josh D'Amaro and the existing WDI and TDO executives aren't idiots? These current park execs are not showmen, and they are bad at hospitality for their paying guests. Plain and simple.

Multiple people have said this, but this logic ignores utilization, which for the riverboat was akin to Ellen’s Energy Adventure LOL

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

I agree I think it stays but stationary and potentially not guest accessible (think a set piece on the rivers around Big Thunder).

I would quite like that, maybe keep a bit of water around BTM/Tiana's and keep the boat over there. Heck if they wanted to, they could turn it into a pretty killer permanent Tiana Meet and Greet.

 

[peter11435]

If you read the entire post - “and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour”

I did read the entire post. Doesn’t change anything.

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

Multiple people have said this, but this logic ignores utilization, which for the riverboat was akin to Ellen’s Energy Adventure LOL

If everyone suddenly absolutely loved the riverboats and the rafts out of nowhere and gave them numbers that literally have never been seen in the last 2 decades every single day than guys.. I think this might beat out Cars :O

All Disney has to do is attract 2,000 more people to something they literally never wanted to do

 

[Chef idea Mickey`=]

This reminds me of the good old days when JT insisted that Cars Land could never be built at the back of DHS because the ground would never support it, ground which now supports ROTR just fine.

What's or Who's JT?

 

[MrPromey]

No. The entire weight of the water has to be supported by the riverbed because of Earth's gravitational pull on all of the water, not just the part at the bottom. If the riverbed was only supporting the water directly above it (whatever that means...) the rest of the water would just fly off into space. Draw a free body diagram of the riverbed. Or for an easier place to start, grab a cup of water and put it on a scale. Fill it a little bit with water. Fill it a little bit more. Fill it a little bit more. And watch the scale continue to rise. Water is not weightless, whether at the top, middle, or bottom of a cup, pool, or river.

And how do you know the river system only has small leaks? What do you know about the quality and condition of the concrete foundation? I'm not saying it's in shambles because I haven't seen it either. I'm only saying that someone with known ties to Disney, who has very possibly had direct conversations engineers explaining the rationale for eliminating ROA, has offered us a very plausible and physics-based explanation for the tough decision to replace ROA. We cannot be so blinded by our own biases to keep ROA that we start to make up our version of physics out of convenience.


The right and center of the artwork shows wide paths with people on them. Would have been water with no swimmer before, correct? That is more spatial efficiency. If the ride path crosses over itself, as it appears to do multiple times in the path, it is using more vertical space than if that ride were to be flat, right? That is more spatial efficiency.


One of the consequences of failure is leakage of water, as I explained. The ground beneath the riverbed is porous and the water would escape into ground and aquifer beneath that. The water would need to be replaced. The Seven Seas Lagoon being connected makes it so that the water level doesn't drop appear to drop precipitously in ROA because the volume of water is distributed. So rather than 1 foot drop in ROA and same water level in SSL, we maybe see a 1cm drop altogether. But make no mistake, the same volume of water has left the proverbial building. And its the same amount of water you need to pump back in to recover 1 cm of SSL + ROA as it would be to refill just ROA by 1 foot (I'm guessing the ratio, I don't actually know)

You need to just stop with this argument while you're behind and pivot to something else.

The river bed does not have to support the weight of the water. It's not a bowl.

They don't have to pump water into it. If they did, they wouldn't need to build a temporary dam and pump the water out for parts of it, they'd simply just drain it. [I've been corrected on some of this further down the thread] The gravitational pull you mentioned in your own statement gets the water where it needs to go.

Leaks don't matter for retaining the water. This isn't a swimming pool someone filled with a hose.

Put it this way - what do you think happens if you dig a hole next to a lake that goes below the waterline of the lake?

Do you know?

I'm pretty sure Disney's engineers know.

Seven Seas lagoon, connected to the ROA by a canal does not have a cement bottom but it's also not a natural body of water, either. The reason that doesn't just run dry is the same reason the cement doesn't have to hold all that water in ROA. At worst, water over time seeping through the cement has the ability to erode it and over a long enough period without mitigation efforts as a part of planned maintenance, it's possible that could jeopardize the integrity of the parts anchoring the track but as has already previously been mentioned, they didn't need to anchor the track to an entire bed of cement to begin with so any potential problem there is not what you're making it out to be and the solution, if they didn't want to preserve the full cement bottom would not need to be much more dramatic than when someone wants to put a dock pretty much anywhere in water that doesn't have a man-made bottom. They wouldn't even technically need to drain ROA to do it though for speed quality and cost, they probably would since they have the ability to control it enough to do that.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I assure you. It’s done.

Don’t get people’s hopes up.

I’m discussing the attraction and the possibilities of the design. I will continue to do so.

 

[peter11435]

You need to just stop with this argument while you're behind.

The river bed does not have to support the weight of the water. It's not a bowl.

They don't have to pump water into it. If they did, they wouldn't need to build a temporary dam and pump the water out to on parts of it, they'd simply just drain it. The gravitatoinal pull you mentioned in your own statement gets the water where it needs to go.

Leaks don't matter for retaining the water - this isn't a swiming pool someone filled with a hose.

Put it this way - what do you think happens if you dig a hole next to a lake that goes below the waterline height of the lake?

Do you know?

I'm pretty sure Disney's engineers know.

Seven Seas lagoon, connected to the ROA by a canal does not have a cement bottom but it's also not a natural body of water, either. The reason that doesn't just run dry is the same reason the cement doesn't have to hold all that water in ROA. At worst, water over time seeping through the cement has the ability to erode it and over a long enough period without mitigation efforts as a part of planned maintenance, it's possible that could jeopardize the integrity of the parts anchoring the track but as has already previously been mentioned, they didn't need to anchor the track to an entire bed of cement to begin with so any potential problem there is not what you're making it out to be and the solution, if they didn't want to preserve the full cement bottom would not need to be much more dramatic than when someone wants to put a dock pretty much anywhere in water that doesn't have a man-made bottom. They wouldn't even technically need to drain ROA to do it though for speed quality and cost, they probably would.

Except they do pump water into the Rivers of America.

The water in the Rivers of America is higher than the water in the Seven Seas Lagoon. The riverbed is keeping that water higher than it would naturally be.

 

[peter11435]

I’m discussing the attraction and the possibilities of the design. I will continue to do so.

Great! I’m just telling you the Liberty Belle Riverboat is done.

 

[MrPromey]

Except they do pump water into the Rivers of America.

The water in the Rivers of America is higher than the water in the Seven Seas Lagoon. The riverbed is keeping that water higher than it would naturally be.

So there is a dam between ROA and the canal?

If so, how are they able to transport the ferry out for maintenance?