News Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[TP2000]

I'm not up to speed (get it?) on this WDW version of this discussion. But I just posted this over on the Disneyland version of this dicsussion and I thought maybe someone here might appreciate it....

You know how we know that Josh D'Amaro and Bruce Vaughn and all the other losers know this was a bad decision?...

They didn't admit to it in front of 12,000 fans at D23 Expo. Instead, they fudged the details and buried the plot and told a few white lies. Because they know in their heart of hearts that this is a dumb and cheap way to run a theme park.

Instead of Josh D'Amaro being honest and saying at D23 Expo in a packed house at the Honda Center...

"We'll say goodbye to the Rivers of America and much of Frontierland in order to tell the immersive story of Cars!"

He actually said (exact transcript from D23 Expo Horizons presentation at the Honda Center)...

"I'm happy to announce we're inviting Mater and Lightning McQueen to a re-imagined section of Frontierland!"

And then Mr. D'Amaro said nothing about some sudden problem with maintaining a 53 year old body of water in water-logged central Florida. Nor did he even mention the following words... "Rivers Of America" or "Riverboat" or "Tom Sawyer Island".

D'Amaro just forged ahead, and made it sound like this was an addition to the existing park, instead of an erasure of the existing park. It wasn't until hours later when fans started realizing what was happening. And what all this actually meant.

That proves that even Josh D'Amaro, with his winning smile and runner's physique and Cool Dad wardrobe, knows that he is not making the correct decision about Magic Kingdom's future.

 

[MrPromey]

You joke, but Disney doesn’t realize the real cash cow - alcohol. High profit margins on alcohol and intoxicated guests = more loose spending.

I know they were anti alcohol for a while, but in all honestly it’s a huge money maker that they never truly tapped into.

You have to be joking... Or you've never done anything on property outside of the MK.

They have fully "tapped into" this everywhere on property but the MK (which, for a while was a completely sacred cow) and they've even started finding ways to inch it into there. It's only a matter of time until they sell it there like the other three parks and all over the rest of property but they've been working on getting that pot of frogs up to boil slowly to avoid the blow-back from the fans who still think this is actually Walt Disney's Walt Disney World.

 

[Quietmouse]

I will say; the oddest thing is the urgency to get this done.

If I was a Disney executive with financial purse strings, i would be genuinely curious why we aren’t tearing out the tomorrow land speed way to create expansion space. Or utilize the space next to adventure land for a new e ticket attraction.

To hear that draining and tearing out tsi being the most costlier option is bizarre because it seems Disney would want the path of least resistance, at least financially speaking.

Now they have to worry about draining the river, regrading the entire land, they have to figure out how to dismantle and remove the river boat and only then begin to build upon the land for a new attraction and theme.

Just seems like a lot of work and hoops to jump thru and feels like this goes against how Disney would operate in the sense they want the easy way out with the least resistance.

This seems like a heavy duty project and I’m curious why the urgency? Was the steam boat and island operating at that much of a loss? Was there we didn’t know about the condition of the island and the steam boat? Was there something about the river water quality?

I’m just trying to piece the puzzle together, because if Disney wanted the easy way out this was not the route to take.

 

[Quietmouse]

You have to be joking... Or you've never done anything on property outside of the MK.

They have fully "tapped into" this everywhere on property but the MK (which, for a while was a completely sacred cow) and they've even started finding ways to inch it into there. It's only a matter of time until they sell it there like the other three parks and all over the rest of property but they've been working on getting that pot of frogs up to boil slowly to avoid the blow-back from the fans who still think this is actually Walt Disney's Walt Disney World.

I’m talking more so magic kingdom. I realize you can drink pretty freely else where.

I’m just surprised they haven’t tapped into themed distilleries and breweries. Parents love going to Disney world but honestly a drink helps with the chaos.

 

[MrPromey]

I’m talking more so magic kingdom. I realize you can drink pretty freely else where.

I’m just surprised they haven’t tapped into themed distilleries and breweries. Parents love going to Disney world but honestly a drink helps with the chaos.

Don't you worry - they're working on it.

It's already possible to get alcohol in MK.

They just don't have it freely for sale in carts or walk-up counters.

Give 'em time. That's what they want but there's that pesky opinion Walt had about it and family entertainment which traditionally kept it from the castle parks in the US.*

*Unless you were a mover and shaker and willing to spend to be a member of Club 33, that is but there was a pretty strong separation between that and regular park goers in his lifetime. It wasn't anything like the completely open secret it is today.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

If you have strong feelings about TSI, then I'm sorry for your disappointment.

I like the mills, there is a really small but cool reference to the old mill on one of them. Don’t ask, I’m not telling who-who.

I also love the AA-chickens - they used to have them at the barnstormer back when Mickey was allowed to have his home in the park. If they evicted the Mouse himself - of course the rivers would go to!

Was the steam boat and island operating at that much of a loss?

Neither are particularly expensive to operate. They both have limited hours. Nothing was forcing them to operate either - they spent quite a bit of money to upgrade the riverboat recently - I think even put in a new boiler.

You are correct - Moana made the most sense for everyone involved. Including shareholders. But that would potentially cause another dead end that Disney is now so concerned about lol.

 

[hopemax]

I will say; the oddest thing is the urgency to get this done.

If I was a Disney executive with financial purse strings, i would be genuinely curious why we aren’t tearing out the tomorrow land speed way to create expansion space. Or utilize the space next to adventure land for a new e ticket attraction.

To hear that draining and tearing out tsi being the most costlier option is bizarre because it seems Disney would want the path of least resistance, at least financially speaking.

Now they have to worry about draining the river, regrading the entire land, they have to figure out how to dismantle and remove the river boat and only then begin to build upon the land for a new attraction and theme.

Just seems like a lot of work and hoops to jump thru and feels like this goes against how Disney would operate in the sense they want the easy way out with the least resistance.

This seems like a heavy duty project and I’m curious why the urgency? Was the steam boat and island operating at that much of a loss? Was there we didn’t know about the condition of the island and the steam boat? Was there something about the river water quality?

I’m just trying to piece the puzzle together, because if Disney wanted the easy way out this was not the route to take.

Sewer system? It has had some problems in recent years, resulting in pumps in Frontierland. Depending on when end of life was anticipated and if they are over it, unanticipated failure… It wouldn’t be the first time a project was sold as necessary for X reason but later we learn it was for Y.

 

[Quietmouse]

Don't you worry - they're working on it.

It's already possible to get alcohol in MK.

They just don't have it freely for sale in carts or walk-up counters.

Give 'em time. That's what they want but there's that pesky opinion Walt had about it and family entertainment which traditionally kept it from the castle parks in the US.*

*Unless you were a mover and shaker and willing to spend to be a member of Club 33, that is but there was a pretty strong separation between that and regular park goers in his lifetime. It wasn't anything like the completely open secret it is today.

I wonder how much of that had to do with prohibition? Between when Disney land opened and prohibition started that was a gap of 25 plus years? I wonder how alcohol was viewed during those times?

Likewise I know you were able to freely smoke cigarettes anywhere in the park back in the 60s and you could even smoke on the rides if you wanted to.

I think times change - right now society is open about alcohol the same way they were about cigarettes for much of the 60s thru the 90s.

 

[Quietmouse]

Sewer system? It has had some problems in recent years, resulting in pumps in Frontierland. Depending on when end of life was anticipated and if they are over it, unanticipated failure… It wouldn’t be the first time a project was sold as necessary for X reason but later we learn it was for Y.

Point being there has to be some large reason at play. This isn’t a simple project and Disney had much cheaper options within the boundaries of mk.

 

[MrPromey]

I find it so depressing how many fans don't care about this because it is apparently all about the rides, which was never what Disney theme parks were supposed to be.

That said, this seems to be what a lot of Disney fans think naturally beautiful means

View attachment 809491

Yeah.

"All about the rides" used to be the domain of Six Flags.

Poor attention to detail and lack of consideration for theme, transitions and place-making used to be a point Disney fans looked down on Universal for.

To me, all that good will, all that emotional attachment Disney fans had to their properties was because of the "Disney Difference". More and more, the only difference between Disney and Universal is becoming who has the rights to what franchise.

The Universal Studios theme park has had to basically reinvent itself multiple times with ET being the only opening day attraction still in operation because that park was nothing but popular IP of the day. People now call it stale and in need of more updating even though the majority of attractions in the MK that we have today were in operation decades before Universal had even bought the land to build on.*

I think Disney's going to find that taking the popular IP route for everything going forward is not going to endear them with newer generations the way they've been able capitalize on the work of those who came before them to hook previous and current generations as lifers willing to jump through their various crowd management hoops.

Circling back a little, I can't help but think how ET is the only attraction in Universal Studios anyone seems to really care about keeping** even though it's old, not that advanced compared to everything else and I'm pretty sure most kids really don't even understand the source material - sound familiar?

*It's kind of funny to think about but people talk about US needing a major refresh without seeming to realize that nearly everything in operation there today is the same age or newer than most of IOA. MIB Alien Attack is actually about a year newer than The Amazing Adventures of Spiderman, for instance.

**I think most Harry Potter fans would be fine losing Escape from Gringots if they were getting a newer "better" attraction in it's place.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Likewise I know you were able to freely smoke cigarettes anywhere in the park back in the 60s and you could even smoke on the rides if you wanted to.

That is an interesting point - Main Street had a tobacco shop (Indian is still there) up until 1990. Guess we traded one sin for another?

I don’t think smoking on rides was ever permitted though. People may have done it, but rule wise.

 

[Quietmouse]

Yeah.

"All about the rides" used to be the domain of Six Flags.

Poor attention to detail and lack of consideration for theme, transitions and place-making use to be a point Disney fans looked down on Universal for.

To me, all that good will, all that emotional attachment Disney fans had to their properties was because of the "Disney Difference". More and more, the only difference between Disney and Universal is becoming who has the rights to what franchise.

The Universal Studios theme park has had to basically reinvent itself multiple times with ET being the only opening day attraction still in operation because that park was nothing but popular IP of the day. People now call it stale and in need of more updating even though the majority of attractions in the MK that we have today were in operation decades before Universal had even bought the land to build on.

I think Disney's going to find that taking the popular IP route for everything going forward is not going to endear them with newer generations the way they've been able capitalize on the work of those who came before them to hook previous and current generations as lifers willing to jump through their various crowd management hoops.

Kind of like how ET is the only attraction in Universal Studios anyone seems to care about keeping even though it's old, not that advanced compared to everything else and I'm pretty sure most kids really don't even understand the source material - sound familiar?

Kind of defeats your point though because et is still an ip.

It’s a well done ride based off a classic ip that is still heavily regarded as one the top 10 best sci fi films in history.

Maybe the point you’re trying to make is the quality of the ip? Which I think is fair, but ultimately quality is subjective .

 

[MrPromey]

Kind of defeats your point though because et is still an ip.

It’s a well done ride based off a classic ip that is still heavily regarded as one the top 10 best sci fi films in history.

Maybe the point you’re trying to make is the quality of the ip? Which I think is fair, but ultimately quality is subjective .

What I stated was "popular IP of the day" as in, what's hot now whenever "now" is while they're deciding.

Disney's flying Elephant ride was operating decades before Kang and Kodos’ Twirl ‘n’ Hurl and it'll be there decades after despite being essentially the same basic ride and having an IP connection.

Same with the Mad Tea Party cups vs. Storm Force Accelatron.

Why?

Which do you think is more timeless - Peter Pan's Flight or Cosmic Rewind?

Which is more likely to get a complete retheme in the next 20-30 years?

Why?

They're both IPs, right?

Haunted Mansion isn't based on a pre-existing IP though they've tried multiple times to launch movies from it without much critical or financial success. Do you think anything in Hollywood Studios is likely to outlive it?

My point about ET was that was literally the only thing to hang on. Murder She Wrote sure didn't. Fantasic World of Hanna Barbara didn't. Earthquake didn't. Ghost Busters didn't and neither did Twister which replaced it. Friggin' Back to the Future (which wasn't even an opening day attraction) didn't.

ET's frankly the fluke and there are strong rumors the reason it has lasted has more to do with Steven Speilburg's affinity for it and their working relationship with him than the 15-20% of Universal fans that would be ready to riot the way so many people are about a river and attractions on it that most of them don't even regularly do in Disney.

Disney cultivated the strong emotional attachments much of their audience has with them over generations. Current management seems happy to exploit that but apparently doesn't see near-term profit in working to maintain it.

 

[Quietmouse]

What I stated was "popular IP of the day" as in, what's hot now.

Disney's flying Elephant ride was operating decades before Kang and Kodos’ Twirl ‘n’ Hurl and it'll be there decades after despite being essentially the same basic ride and having an IP connection.

Same with the Mad Tea Party cups vs. Storm Force Accelatron.

Why?

Which do you think is more timeless - Peter Pan's Flight or Cosmic Rewind?

Which is more likely to get a complete retheme in the next 20-30 years?

Why?

They're both IPs, right?

Haunted Mansion isn't based on a pre-existing IP though they've tried multiple times to launch movies from it without much critical or financial success. Do you think anything in Hollywood Studios is likely to outlive it?

Would you argue frozen is a timeless ip or Moana ? I think it’s hard to create a case for what is a current day timeless ip versus something like Peter Pan that is almost 70 years old.

Right now if you asked my daughter she would say frozen and Moana is better than Peter Pan. But that doesn’t make her anymore right or wrong.

It’s all truly subjective and very much tied the time of year living in.

 

[MrPromey]

Would you argue frozen is a timeless ip or Moana ? I think it’s hard to create a case for what is a current day timeless ip versus something like Peter Pan that is almost 70 years old.

Right now if you asked my daughter she would say frozen and Moana is better than Peter Pan. But that doesn’t make her anymore right or wrong.

It’s all truly subjective and very much tied the time of year living in.

They could be.

I don't think the Moana water walk-through will be, though.

The frozen ride? Hard to say but the way Disney is handling things today, I suspect their fan base would be willing to "let it go" if they were getting a newer better Frozen ride on an expansion pad in the Magic Kingdom.

It wouldn't shock me, btw, if Universal closed ET six months from now. People always seem to think that's what's going to happen every time it goes down for an extended refurbishment - that they'll close and it'll just never reopen and that's how that one will go.

That's the expectation most Universal fans have with Universal and I guess now, Disney's heading in that direction, too... of course, we haven't heard where the Monsters mini land is going yet so we'll see.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

To me, all that good will, all that emotional attachment Disney fans had to their properties was because of the "Disney Difference". More and more, the only difference between Disney and Universal is becoming who has the rights to what franchise.

Yes, I think for me this is what hits hardest about this announcement.

Universal and Disney basically do the same thing now, which is building attractions based on movies. Sometimes one will do it better than the other, but they work with more or less the same budgets and have more or less the same people designing their attractions.

The reason the announcement hits so hard is now they are replacing the remnants of the parks before they all blurred into one. Today, it's a big Piston Mountain greeting guests walking from the hub of the Magic Kingdom into what was once Liberty Square. Tomorrow, maybe our friends from Monsters Inc will take over Main Street USA. Tomorrowland could become Incredibles Land.

 

[MrPromey]

Yes, I think for me this is what hits hardest about this announcement.

Universal and Disney basically do the same thing now, which is building attractions based on movies. Sometimes one will do it better than the other, but they work with more or less the same budgets and have more or less the same people designing their attractions.

The reason the announcement hits so hard is now they are replacing the remnants of the parks before they all blurred into one. Today, it's a big Piston Mountain greeting guests walking from the hub of the Magic Kingdom. Tomorrow, maybe our friends from Monsters Inc will take over Main Street USA.

I'm sure lots of people here would be perfectly happy with trading Main Street USA for a Mini Monsters land even if it was just to have a clone of the California Adventure ride and a table service Harry Hausen's.

I don't think Disney's ready to give up their Walmart Sized gift shop now running the length of the left side just yet so we're safe for a while, there, though.

Having said that, under current leadership, Disney has certainly changed and I think that is changing newer audiences connections with them, though.

Something tells me, this newer crowd isn't going to put up with something being left stale for as long as say, Ellen's Energy Adventure was in the future.*

Not when the competition with their own stable of popular IPs keeps building and replacing.

*Their kind of like killing the goose as it were and I think they'll realize that too late as a company but for the executives who made the decisions to get them there, it won't matter because most of them will have moved on or retired.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I don't think Disney's ready to give up their Walmart Sized gift shop now running the length of the left side just yet so we're safe for a while, there.

Well, they'd only have to change the name and the facade. In terms of the theming, they could just say that they are "reimagining what Main Street means" as D'Amaro said about Frontierland.

All bets are pretty much off.

 

[MrPromey]

Well, they'd only have to change the name and the facade. In terms of the theming, they could just say that they are "reimagining what Main Street means" as D'Amaro said about Frontierland.

All bets are pretty much off.

Well, since it seems like they're hesitant to announce where in Hollywood Studios that's actually going, I'm pretty sure they're trying to find the right way to upset a whole bunch of people about that park at the moment so again, I think we're safe for the time being when it comes to Main Street USA.

But I get your point.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

“Main Street has always been about people in the small town dreaming big! From a young Walt Disney to our favorite potty-mouth superhero - Main Street will soon be reimagined so that Deadpool can tell his Main Street story!” -Josh at D23, 20??