News Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[danlb_2000]

Oh I read it. The statement that bad ride placement can erode the thematic coherence of the parks is nothing but spin. It's not real at all. That's why there are no real examples of it ever happening.

Proper theming is what makes Disney parks what they are. Have you ever been in a Six Flags park? Do you they feel the same to you as walking around in a Disney park? They both have rides, shows, entertainment, shop, restaurants, etc. What is it that makes Disney feel different?

As I have said many times, there are 1000's of details in Disney parks that most guests don't consciously notice, but combines these are what makes Disney parks special. I always like this passage from John Hench's Imagineering books. This is the kind of thought Disney used to put into every detail of the parks.

"Color supports the identity of form by helping to define it. For example, in painting an apple in black and white, if I depict the fruit with a bite taken out of it, it makes its identity as an apple, rather than a peach or a plum, clearer. But an apple painted in red doesn't need the bite taken out of it; its color supports the viewer's perception of what it is. The form, carefully rendered in color, creates the image's "appleness." the shinny red apple given to Snow White by the wicked witch is clearly identified by its color and form, and is an essential element in the story highly prized by guests in the Snow White dark ride." -- John Hench

 

[Andrew C]

Oh I read it. The statement that bad ride placement can erode the thematic coherence of the parks is nothing but spin. It's not real at all. That's why there are no real examples of it ever happening.

This is an amazing statement.

 

[FiestaFunKid]

Piling on - but the beauty of ROA and especially TSA is the differentiated experience it offers. It provides actual exploration, that even surprises adults as they travel over bridges and down into tunnels. From a sensory perspective, it allows for actual touch. An immersion aspect less and less a part of WDW. Many have also pointed out the relaxing balance it provides vs the rest of the park.

I would guess many of the TSA haters have never been over there....and I don't blame them if they are infrequent visitors who need to allocate their time booking their next LL, but it's worth a visit. We can drop in new c and e-ticket attractions forever, that will be similar in form an function to Universal offerings, but these iconic Disney areas will never be re-created.

An overarching point that Disney misses is how well guests mentally separate movie/tv IP consumption from a ride experience. Obviously, it has it's place but guests primarily care about a great attraction (immersion, fun, thrills, feels) not seeing the most recent IP.

I went to the parks in the 80s and early 90s and we all loved great attractions with decades old IP - Snow White, Pan, Splash, Mr Toad, and many more. We didn't go home complaining that there were no Aristocats, or Rescuers attractions.....AND we didn't rush to watch Wind in the Willows or SOTH after their rides. Most people view/evaluate attractiions in a vacuum based on the standalone experience and IPs are not cheat codes to elevate them.

 

[celluloid]

Real in what measurable way? Do fewer people come? Do they spend less money? Can you cite an example where thematic inconsistency actually resulted in a measurable and recorded decline for any metric at the parks?

Frequently.

But you will always have a qualifier.

 

[el_super]

This is an amazing statement.

Not really. I provided lots of evidence in this thread where theme was basically abandoned for a cool new idea. Something they have been doing rather successfully for some 70 years now.

If you want to believe that there are some "rules" to theme park design as a way of validating a fear of change... go for it. Just don't think everyone, especially Disney, subscribes to that.

 

[Andrew C]

If you want to believe that there are some "rules" to theme park design as a way of validating a fear of change...

That is just...not happening here...

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

Which attraction?

Country Bear Jamboree, it's definitely in the 1930s.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Can you cite an example where thematic inconsistency actually resulted in a measurable and recorded decline for any metric at the parks?

This sounds like an extreme stance. If you’re saying thematic consistency doesn’t matter at all, then we’re back to the old “Why go to a Disney park in the first place?” argument.

I can’t even think of a good comparison here to point out as a logical extreme, because I can’t think of a park that has tons and tons of theming but it’s completely random. There’s probably a reason for that. I could point to parks that have almost no theming, but none where it seems totally random.

It’s one thing to say “Look, food quality has declined a bit, but it’s still pretty good, and with inflation it’s a fair trade.” It’s another to say “Why care about food quality at all? Is there any data that shows attendance dips when food quality goes down? Sell nothing but Cheetos for all I care.” Similarly, it’s one thing to say that we make some trade offs with theming and you can’t please everyone. It’s another to say it doesn’t matter, go ahead and throw it all out the window if you want.

I appreciate that you’re a big fan of the parks, and hey, I’m glad you’re happy with this change. But you don’t have to eschew the idea of theming altogether to support it.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Most people view/evaluate attractiions in a vacuum based on the standalone experience and IPs are not cheat codes to elevate them.

This is true, and a great point. There are only 2 lands that actually nail recreating the movie - Cars Land and Harry Potter

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

I mean, my last straw is what recently reopened at Epcot, this just reaffirms my position. Yes, others will probably take my place, but there may be an overall tipping point eventually...

I'm gonna be real with you. Attendance is still a juggernaut. A lot of Disney World's audience is once in a lifetime travellers. They do not care about the river. I've asked many people who I know who like the Disney parks but aren't super fans. When I first mentioned "Rivers of America" they had no clue what it was. I described it to them "the river that goes past Haunted Mansion, Frontierland/Liberty Square, and Big Thunder. The consensus was "What are they putting there?" When I told them, they loved it and said their kids would love it. Not a single one cared about the river or the island being replaced. Most of these changes, Disney knows, the average theme park guest could care less about. Disney has made plenty of "bad decisions" in the super fans opinion but other than a very specific few, it has rarely affected a parks attendance as a whole. There are die hards that will go no matter what and people who make it their lifes goal to go even once. I don't think this metaphorically tipping point is even in the cards right now unless they do something genuinely drastic like just tear down the castle and put a boring ride there. Save for that, I genuinely don't think many changes would actually lead to a tipping point.

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

This sounds like an extreme stance. If you’re saying thematic consistency doesn’t matter at all, then we’re back to the old “Why go to a Disney park in the first place?” argument.

I can’t even think of a good comparison here to point out as a logical extreme, because I can’t think of a park that has tons and tons of theming but it’s completely random. There’s probably a reason for that. I could point to parks that have almost no theming, but none where it seems totally random.

It’s one thing to say “Look, food quality has declined a bit, but it’s still pretty good, and with inflation it’s a fair trade.” It’s another to say “Why care about food quality at all? Is there any data that shows attendance dips when food quality goes down? Sell nothing but Cheetos for all I care.” Similarly, it’s one thing to say that we make some trade offs with theming and you can’t please everyone. It’s another to say it doesn’t matter, go ahead and throw it all out the window if you want.

I appreciate that you’re a big fan of the parks, and hey, I’m glad you’re happy with this change. But you don’t have to eschew the idea of theming altogether to support it.

To see their favorite Disney characters that Disney has ensured you can not seen anywhere else in any serious manner. You can "ride the movie" or see your favorite princess, see the latest tech in theme parks, and get an unforgettable experience that people only dream of going to.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

To see their favorite Disney characters that Disney has ensured you can not seen anywhere else in any serious manner.

Sure you can. Disney on Ice and Disney Cruise Line.

 

[Incomudro]

Unless it is fully enclosed, it will be impossible *not* to hear it.

How loud do you think this will be?
They're not going to be combustion engine vehicles.
Their engine sound is likely going to be through speakers inside the cabins of the vehicles themselves.
Add the berm and trees surrounding this - plus the music in Frontierland - and I don't think we'll be hearing much of anything.
I say this as a guy who doesn't want this attraction where they are putting it.
Just trying to be honest about it.

 

[Andrew C]

I'm gonna be real with you. Attendance is still a juggernaut. A lot of Disney World's audience is once in a lifetime travellers. They do not care about the river. I've asked many people who I know who like the Disney parks but aren't super fans. When I first mentioned "Rivers of America" they had no clue what it was. I described it to them "the river that goes past Haunted Mansion, Frontierland/Liberty Square, and Big Thunder. The consensus was "What are they putting there?" When I told them, they loved it and said their kids would love it. Not a single one cared about the river or the island being replaced. Most of these changes, Disney knows, the average theme park guest could care less about. Disney has made plenty of "bad decisions" in the super fans opinion but other than a very specific few, it has rarely affected a parks attendance as a whole. There are die hards that will go no matter what and people who make it their lifes goal to go even once. I don't think this metaphorically tipping point is even in the cards right now unless they do something genuinely drastic like just tear down the castle and put a boring ride there. Save for that, I genuinely don't think many changes would actually lead to a tipping point.

Yes yes...catering to the "average guest" is now what Disney strives to achieve. The lowest common denominator? No more above and beyond...

 

[DisneyHead123]

To see their favorite Disney characters that Disney has ensured you can not seen anywhere else in any serious manner. You can "ride the movie" or see your favorite princess, see the latest tech in theme parks, and get an unforgettable experience that people only dream of going to.

Ok but if you take “theming doesn’t matter” to a logical extreme you have Belle in a Mickey Mouse outfit meeting people in the jungle from Jungle Book. Would people still want to meet their fave characters just as much in what looked like a literal “Put in the IP blender” situation?

You can say theme matters less to some people. But I think logically you can’t say it doesn’t matter at all.

 

[Incomudro]

Proper theming is what makes Disney parks what they are. Have you ever been in a Six Flags park? Do you they feel the same to you as walking around in a Disney park? They both have rides, shows, entertainment, shop, restaurants, etc. What is it that makes Disney feel different?

As I have said many times, there are 1000's of details in Disney parks that most guests don't consciously notice, but combines these are what makes Disney parks special. I always like this passage from John Hench's Imagineering books. This is the kind of thought Disney used to put into every detail of the parks.

"Color supports the identity of form by helping to define it. For example, in painting an apple in black and white, if I depict the fruit with a bite taken out of it, it makes its identity as an apple, rather than a peach or a plum, clearer. But an apple painted in red doesn't need the bite taken out of it; its color supports the viewer's perception of what it is. The form, carefully rendered in color, creates the image's "appleness." the shinny red apple given to Snow White by the wicked witch is clearly identified by its color and form, and is an essential element in the story highly prized by guests in the Snow White dark ride." -- John Hench

It's kind of like a high end car vs a low end car.
Most people who would sit in and drive a higher end car would have little idea what combination of elements make that vehicle feel more premium than the budget vehicle.
Yes, the would notice some of the obvious things like nicer leather, a quieter cabin, perhaps more power.
But most wouldn't know all of the underlying things that come together to bring that experience.
Like higher quality materials, more rigid body structure, more advanced and isolated suspension, more sound deadening, better engine mounts, laminated glass, higher quality plastics...
So, that's Disney.
It is a whole combination of elements, planing, theming, music, scents...
And the river and riverboat is a huge one of those.

 

[Epcot81Fan]

So, that's Disney.

Was.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Save for that, I genuinely don't think many changes would actually lead to a tipping point.

WDW attendance has already tipped…. Big combination of factors but lack of car’s attraction isn’t one of them.

 

[celluloid]

Country Bear Jamboree, it's definitely in the 1930s

Yes earlier part of the century than the 50s, and the songs being in the reality being made in the 1950s does not hurt it because we understand the difference between creation of a production and it's setting.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Country Bear Jamboree, it's definitely in the 1930s.

Why? Again not arguing, I just don’t know the reason this is being said.