News Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[CoasterCowboy67]

You even know how to say it in a trendy way!

That said, I won't pretend to know how decision-making is made at the parks. I would guess that park ops has to execute certain kinds of maintenance (safety, maintenance upkeep, etc.) because they have to meet certain deadlines / milestones given EOL of certain components -- they already have that roadmap ahead of time.

Doesn't mean park ops is concurrently complaining about the cost to maintain certain areas of the park and additional maintenance projects on their roadmap to execute that would go away if more senior leadership decided to shutter the attraction

All that to say that a recent repair isn't at odds with the decision to close an attraction. It's not disorganized decision-making, it's just a matter of timing. There's a lot that goes into it

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

All that to say that a recent repair isn't at odds with the decision to close an attraction. It's not disorganized decision-making, it's just a matter of timing. There's a lot that goes into it

The point to the recent repair was that Disney did recently evaluate the steamboats and steam train and decided to invest in them significantly in order to keep them operating.

There is lots of disorganized decision making - they went through casting, hiring, and rehearsing a brand new cast for the Pixar parade at studios - that cast never performed cause the parade was cut completely. This was within months of the decision to cut the parade - which is pretty knee-jerk and last minute for a company the size of Disney.

 

[el_super]

Why form an emotional attachment to a Disney ride when Disney could replace it at any minute? Pirates? Not safe. HM? Not safe. Etc

This was always true.

The boiler is good for decades, they just replaced much of the track. There is not much additional maintenance work that needs to be done. The Liberty Belle is well maintained and in good working order.

Maybe they can get a good price for it, should they decide to sell it to another company or ship the parts over somewhere else.

 

[CoasterCowboy67]

The point to the recent repair was that Disney did recently evaluate the steamboats and steam train and decided to invest in them significantly in order to keep them operating.

There is lots of disorganized decision making - they went through casting, hiring, and rehearsing a brand new cast for the Pixar parade at studios - that cast never performed cause the parade was cut completely. This was within months of the decision to cut the parade - which is pretty knee-jerk and last minute for a company the size of Disney.

You're missing the point. You make it seem like they sat down and decided to do something with some major forward-looking strategy in mind and then randomly changed the strategy a day later. That's not how decisions are made

The boiler replacement was likely on a schedule set years prior by the original life expectancy of the equipment and maintenance reports thereafter, with very limited options for Park Ops around when they execute -- they probably have a one or two-year window to get it done (before the deadline) and then pick the best few months to close down the ride for refurb in balance with other projects, seasonality, etc. It's very possible, if not extremely likely, that this maintenance needed to happen on a certain date to avoid a safety issue or mechanical issue -- regardless of any strategy of what to do with ROA / TSI. If guests were stranded on a boat for hours and it was later revealed equipment was years past its expectancy, lawsuits would follow

When a decision is made to shutter the boat, past repairs don't matter, they are sunk costs. The conversation is focused on (1) schedule and costs for known future repairs in the coming years (which c'mon y'all, there has to be more than boilers and a track to repair and upkeep), (2) ongoing / routing maintenance outside of these repairs, and (3) the opportunity cost of what you'd spend (or make in revenue) from putting something else in its place. This is the stuff that drives strategy

 

[lazyboy97o]

You're missing the point. You make it seem like they sat down and decided to do something with some major forward-looking strategy in mind and then randomly changed the strategy a day later. That's not how decisions are made

Yes, maintenance is not coordinated with future projects. What keeps getting ignored is the scope of the maintenance. There were much cheaper alternatives available, ones that many other parks have chosen.

 

[CoasterCowboy67]

Yes, maintenance is not coordinated with future projects. What keeps getting ignored is the scope of the maintenance. There were much cheaper alternatives available, ones that many other parks have chosen.

Please, can one of our boat maintenance experts here explain what was wrong with the boat, what options there were to fix the boat, and what Disney decided to do among those options that is so contradictory to deciding to shutter the boat to make room for the proposed attractions? While they're at it, would be helpful to see a list of all components for the boat beyond the boiler and track, and the expected repair / replace date & cost for each of them. Surely, they must have this data the way they're casting aspersions on Disney's decision-making here

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

On a bigger picture - with Red Car Trolley closing out west I am wondering if many of these decisions are being made from the top in order to significantly cut costs in the parks.

If that’s true I expect a lot more cuts in early 2025. I’m not sure how much more entertainment WDW can cut but I wonder…

 

[lazyboy97o]

Please, can one of our boat maintenance experts here explain what was wrong with the boat, what options there were to fix the boat, and what Disney decided to do among those options that is so contradictory to deciding to shutter the boat to make room for the proposed attractions? While they're at it, would be helpful to see a list of all components for the boat beyond the boiler and track, and the expected repair / replace date & cost for each of them. Surely, they must have this data the way they're casting aspersions on Disney's decision-making here

Is it really that hard to figure out why Six Flags did something?

 

[EricsBiscuit]

You're missing the point. You make it seem like they sat down and decided to do something with some major forward-looking strategy in mind and then randomly changed the strategy a day later. That's not how decisions are made

The boiler replacement was likely on a schedule set years prior by the original life expectancy of the equipment and maintenance reports thereafter, with very limited options for Park Ops around when they execute -- they probably have a one or two-year window to get it done (before the deadline) and then pick the best few months to close down the ride for refurb in balance with other projects, seasonality, etc. It's very possible, if not extremely likely, that this maintenance needed to happen on a certain date to avoid a safety issue or mechanical issue -- regardless of any strategy of what to do with ROA / TSI. If guests were stranded on a boat for hours and it was later revealed equipment was years past its expectancy, lawsuits would follow

When a decision is made to shutter the boat, past repairs don't matter, they are sunk costs. The conversation is focused on (1) schedule and costs for known future repairs in the coming years (which c'mon y'all, there has to be more than boilers and a track to repair and upkeep), (2) ongoing / routing maintenance outside of these repairs, and (3) the opportunity cost of what you'd spend (or make in revenue) from putting something else in its place. This is the stuff that drives strategy

Disney could have let the LB go forward with its old boiler. Not indefinitely as it definitely was getting old, but it certainly was an option. Another option was to permanently dock it. They didn’t choose either. Instead, they installed a new boiler! Clearly, some accountant checked his Excel spread sheet, plugged in the discount rate, expected cost, a couple of years and hit enter to find the Net Present Value (NPV) of the project and it must have been positive. It’s not a sunk cost either because by doing the maintenance they did a couple years ago, they don’t need to do it for at least a decade and a half to come.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Please, can one of our boat maintenance experts here explain what was wrong with the boat, what options there were to fix the boat, and what Disney decided to do among those options that is so contradictory to deciding to shutter the boat to make room for the proposed attractions?

Do you have a legit question or are you trying to make fun of those of us who enjoy the boat and know about steam engines?

 

[CoasterCowboy67]

Disney could have let the LB go forward with its old boiler. Not indefinitely as it definitely was getting old, but it certainly was an option. Another option was to permanently dock it. They didn’t choose either. Instead, they installed a new boiler! Clearly, some accountant checked his Excel spread sheet, plugged in the discount rate, expected cost, a couple of years and hit enter to find the Net Present Value (NPV) of the project and it must have been positive. It’s not a sunk cost either because by doing the maintenance they did a couple years ago, they don’t need to do it for at least a decade and a half to come.

How much does the boiler cost? And why isn't it conceivable that Disney thought it was worth replacing it now -- as opposed to docking it or letting the old boiler remain -- in order to:

• Prevent a mechanical issue that could endanger guests and/or leave them stranded
• Avoid the legal risk of operating an attraction with components known to be past their expectancy
• Continue to provide an attraction that some guests do use today
• Buy time to decide on a longer-term use of the space

Unless you know the cost of the boiler / maintenance, and some estimated $ value of the above, you don't know that the ROI doesn't actually make sense

The cost is sunk unless they can recover the value of the repair in a resale price. Not sure how many tracked riverboat buyers there are

Do you have a legit question or are you trying to make fun of those of us who enjoy the boat and know about steam engines?

It's a legit question. People are claiming Disney's decision to replace the boat's boiler is nonsensical if they decide to shutter the boat 2 years later. Going solely off the fact the boiler now last decades, yes, but ignoring there are probably a million other components on the boat needing repair well sooner than decades. And further ignoring the cost benefit to repair the boat doesn't require alignment with long-term strategy. The boiler's cost may have been a fine investment if it allowed a functional attraction to continue operating for more time

AKA, one component repaired that lasts decades doesn't mean you now have to keep the whole thing that component belongs to for decades

 

[CraftyFox]

I think one has to be cautious with this line of thinking. Which pulls more tourists, a high tech arcade or a quaint, vintage beach town? Which do people rave about more, the high tech animatronics in Tiana’s Bayou Adventure or the low tech ones in Haunted Mansion? Why did the virtual reality experiences in Disney Springs close while the 1970s Tiki themed Ohana restaurant is still generally packed?

Increasingly, people have access to technology in the comfort of their own homes. I think the parks should integrate new technology, of course, but making it a focal point is a serious error, to my mind.

To be fair, the closing of the VOID VR attractions in the Disney Parks is a whole interconnected rabbit hole that involves stolen tombstones, parasocial relationships, hushed workplace incidents, an overeager CEO, and the closure of a theme park in Utah. There are multiple 3+ hour videos dissecting the various instances of malpractice and mishap.

 

[October82]

It’s the business model… for the Parks segment they need to show increased growth in per person spending to demonstrate “sound financial health” to investors.

This is particularly true in Florida where other key metrics - in terms of overall attendance, deluxe room sales, DVCs, etc, are dropping due to a multitude of factors. It helps to have the “per person spending” going up to be dangled as a silver lining to the investment community to demonstrate to shareholders that there’s still growth. This at least gives the appearance the parks business in Florida is strong and growing.

Removing attractions that essentially “suck up guests time on leisure activities” (in the eyes of management and shareholders) without spending an additional penny helps this metric immensely.

This is a great comment that makes a lot of important points.

Metrics shouldn’t be considered in a vacuum - they’re relative to goals - and often have their own biases in both conception and measurement. Rate of growth in guest spend is a good example. What does it say about your business when people are spending more but choosing not to come back, not to make long term commitments to your brand, or voicing dissatisfaction on social media?

 

[John park hopper]

On a bigger picture - with Red Car Trolley closing out west I am wondering if many of these decisions are being made from the top in order to significantly cut costs in the parks.

If that’s true I expect a lot more cuts in early 2025. I’m not sure how much more entertainment WDW can cut but I wonder…

So, what happened to all the money Disney said they were going to invest in the parks --guess the plan is recoup it by cuts and price increases

 

[October82]

How much does the boiler cost? And why isn't it conceivable that Disney thought it was worth replacing it now -- as opposed to docking it or letting the old boiler remain -- in order to:

• Prevent a mechanical issue that could endanger guests and/or leave them stranded
• Avoid the legal risk of operating an attraction with components known to be past their expectancy
• Continue to provide an attraction that some guests do use today
• Buy time to decide on a longer-term use of the space

Unless you know the cost of the boiler / maintenance, and some estimated $ value of the above, you don't know that the ROI doesn't actually make sense

The cost is sunk unless they can recover the value of the repair in a resale price. Not sure how many tracked riverboat buyers there are


It's a legit question. People are claiming Disney's decision to replace the boat's boiler is nonsensical if they decide to shutter the boat 2 years later. Going solely off the fact the boiler now last decades, yes, but ignoring there are probably a million other components on the boat needing repair well sooner than decades. And further ignoring the cost benefit to repair the boat doesn't require alignment with long-term strategy. The boiler's cost may have been a fine investment if it allowed a functional attraction to continue operating for more time

AKA, one component repaired that lasts decades doesn't mean you now have to keep the whole thing that component belongs to for decades

Although I’m sure the conversation on WDWmagic would be helped with more accurate numbers, it’s easy enough to estimate some numbers. The riverboat is not costing tens of millions of dollars to maintain and operate. It is not particularly staff hungry either.

The actual issue that is at stake is not the cost to repair any given attraction or how many guests that attraction might serve. That’s a narrow framing but not one that captures the potential value.

The “ROI” discussion is really about whether the Cars attraction provides more “value” than the current iteration of Frontierland, including the boat, the island, the RoA, their history, and interactions. Wherever you come down on that question, the numbers involved in maintenance or the number of people who currently take the river boat ride represent only a (very) small portion of the value to be gained or lost.

 

[Stripes]

Interesting numbers.... Insider? Just wondering?

Not an insider (I don’t know anybody at WDI) but I come across some interesting info here and there.

Correct and right there is where one should not be stating as fact that this is definitely the better way to financially serve the shareholders. Really too many variables at play to say. And for every accountant that can spin the Excel spreadsheet to Lean one side of the argument, with this many variables I'm sure there's another Excel spreadsheet Master who could spin it the other way.

No matter what the final cost is, it wouldn’t be cheap. But the kicker is that there’s zero benefit to the company. And if they pull off the expansion well, I would argue there’ll be little benefit to the guests. In fact, assuming the project is executed well, I think there’s a tremendous opportunity to improve the beauty, the story, and the kinetics of both Frontierland and Liberty Square. It won’t be the river, but the scenic beauty, calmness, and connection to nature may be just as good or better.

 

[DisneyHead123]

My point is the double standard in their movie business VS. theme park business.

In their movie business (and actually streaming business) there is no thought of budget or spending, they over spend and hope for the best. In their movie business, their art (and their message) is king!

One of the reason they will be paving over ROA is costs; the cost to put cars there instead of actually expanding on undeveloped land, eliminating costs of maintaining ROA, TSI and the riverboat, etc. In their theme park business, the dollar is king!

In their theme park business, every penny is accounted for, cost cuts everywhere, price increases every where. The dollar is king! The guest experience is way down the list.

I’m sympathetic to your overall point and think the parks propped up D+ for too long, but I do think the day to day cost of running the parks has to be taken into account. Movies are mostly up front costs with (mostly) profits following after that. The parks, by contrast, create enormous new expenses with each new addition.

 

[DisneyHead123]

To be fair, the closing of the VOID VR attractions in the Disney Parks is a whole interconnected rabbit hole that involves stolen tombstones, parasocial relationships, hushed workplace incidents, an overeager CEO, and the closure of a theme park in Utah. There are multiple 3+ hour videos dissecting the various instances of malpractice and mishap.

Wow! Hadn’t heard that. Although still - if it was a huge draw I feel they would have replaced it.

 

[CoasterCowboy67]

Although I’m sure the conversation on WDWmagic would be helped with more accurate numbers, it’s easy enough to estimate some numbers. The riverboat is not costing tens of millions of dollars to maintain and operate. It is not particularly staff hungry either.

The actual issue that is at stake is not the cost to repair any given attraction or how many guests that attraction might serve. That’s a narrow framing but not one that captures the potential value.

The “ROI” discussion is really about whether the Cars attraction provides more “value” than the current iteration of Frontierland, including the boat, the island, the RoA, their history, and interactions. Wherever you come down on that question, the numbers involved in maintenance or the number of people who currently take the river boat ride represent only a (very) small portion of the value to be gained or lost.

I agree with that point, which is why the recent money spent to repair the boat has little to do with the decision to keep it or not. Totally different scales of cost and returned value

 

[Disstevefan1]

I’m sympathetic to your overall point and think the parks propped up D+ for too long, but I do think the day to day cost of running the parks has to be taken into account. Movies are mostly up front costs with (mostly) profits following after that. The parks, by contrast, create enormous new expenses with each new addition.

Back when they destroyed Horizons to build Mission Space, I really wanted both Horizons AND Mission Space, I rationalized back then that "couldn't afford" to add attractions.

Today I don't buy it.

A movie could cost hundreds of millions of dollars, they release it and its soon forgotten about, most lose money.

Attractions are with us for decades and decades and yes, there are costs related to operating in addition to the money spent to build it, but at the prices we pay that go up multiple times a year, and now "tickets to ride" are mow monetized, I feel they can afford it.

In WDW, they destroy and replace instead of expanding and WE STILL have prices increases on everything multiple times a year.

Meanwhile, Disneyland is actually expanding.