Captain Marvel 2: "The Marvels" -- Nov 10, 2023 Theatrical Release

[BrianLo]

You’re saying Onward, Soul, Luca, Turning Red, and Strange World aren’t driving huge amounts of new subscribers every month?!

Heretic!

To be fair I think those three likely did. Soul was an enigma of a Pixar film being launched direct to streaming on Christmas Day, so it benefits by being the first with reasonable numbers.

But - Luca and Turning Red were veritable hits with long streaming legs. I think it horribly hurt the Pixar brand, but there's also a reason D+ exploded out of the gate and free Pixar movies had something to do with it.

I don't know where people are getting this belief that Luca and Turning Red were not popular.

 

[fgmnt]

The number one conclusion i reached in watching this movie is that Iman Vellani’s Kamala Khan is the most charismatic and compelling protagonist this franchise has put in front of our faces since T’Challa and Spider-Man 7 years ago. There is a really great movie with these three actresses to be made, they just didn’t make it. It’s just fine, and i fear way too expensive and consequential to the franchise to just be fine.

 

[erasure fan1]

I don't know where people are getting this belief that Luca and Turning Red were not popular.

I think it comes from the general talk when it comes to Disney films. You can get a good idea of how popular something is by how it's talked about with your friends, family, social media, at work... In my small corner of the world, they're never really talked about. A rank your favorite pixar discussion came up at my work the other day. Not one person even mentioned onward, soul, luca or turning red. And when I asked about them, only a couple people had seen them. And no one saw them all. I know my life doesn't equal the end all be all. But I think people see the lack of engagement with those films as they weren't popular. I wish Disney would release better numbers so we could actually see, but we know that won't happen. I liked luca, turning red? Not so much. If I were to say were they popular? I'd say from what I've gathered, not so much. But that's just my perception.

 

[MrPromey]

So the Young Avengers will sink faster than the Titanic?

To be fair, it took almost 3 hours for that to happen.

I mean, things are all relative but I was in a small boat on a lake with another person that sank faster than we both could grab everything we wanted to save and get out of on our own with.

... Fortunately, it turned out we were only in about four feet of water so the ending to that story isn't as dramatic as it may have started off sounding but still.

 

[BlakeW39]

I'll venmo you $20 if The Marvels is a success bro.

I will hold you to this.

What do we define as success? Critical success? Simply turning a profit? A billion dollars?

Not looking good bro, lol.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Being you refuse to accept their answers, you're not discussing things in good faith.

Stop asking questions if you're only going to accept your predetermined answers.

I accept that some people don't like musicals. In no way, shape, or form is that a criticism of musicals or movies with musical segments. I don't enjoy the deliberate pace of many of Kubrick's films. That isn't something that's wrong with those films, its a matter of my personal preference.

Do people really not understand that distinction? Because that would certainly cast a lot of light on the, "just make good movies," argument - does it actually mean, "just make movies that fit all my personal preferences (which I assume are universal)?"

 

[_caleb]

Disney is a business to make money. Their movies are not making money and merchandise sales are in the toilet. You are the few that like these characters and that is totally fine…for Disney+. Not the box office. This has a snowball effect on merch and the parks. Be careful what you wish for. Disney has to cater to the masses and not the 10%.

I think many of us here are trying to discuss why these films aren't making money. Who are the masses you're referring to, and how was The Marvels (or any of Disney's other recent box office bombs) not catering to them?

 

[_caleb]

Being you refuse to accept their answers, you're not discussing things in good faith.

Stop asking questions if you're only going to accept your predetermined answers.

What was your answer to the question ("What's wrong with The Marvels?")? I briefly looked through your posts in this thread and didn't see it. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[BrianLo]

I think it comes from the general talk when it comes to Disney films. You can get a good idea of how popular something is by how it's talked about with your friends, family, social media, at work... In my small corner of the world, they're never really talked about. A rank your favorite pixar discussion came up at my work the other day. Not one person even mentioned onward, soul, luca or turning red. And when I asked about them, only a couple people had seen them. And no one saw them all. I know my life doesn't equal the end all be all. But I think people see the lack of engagement with those films as they weren't popular. I wish Disney would release better numbers so we could actually see, but we know that won't happen. I liked luca, turning red? Not so much. If I were to say were they popular? I'd say from what I've gathered, not so much. But that's just my perception.

Fortunately we do have third party Nielsen data. This was the breakdown of movies across all streaming platforms in the last two years. I have to make some reasonable inferences that the most popular movies on any streaming platforms are partially driving subs.

I absolutely acknowledge some of your anecdotal experience, but it is not very representative of the underlying numbers. Luca made an important pivot by still populating the subsequent years chart, meaning it has some sticky replay. We'll see about Turning Red this year, albeit Encanto without a doubt is also sticky.

 

[erasure fan1]

I absolutely acknowledge some of your anecdotal experience, but it is not very representative of the underlying numbers.

Oh I totally understand. I tried to make it clear it wasn't at all scientific. That's why I said my perception. It was more about the question, why do people say they aren't popular. And your next statement is a great example.

albeit Encanto without a doubt is also sticky.

While I don't see what the fuss was about with encanto. You completely know it became popular and has sticking power. It's talked about, it's referenced, I'll use the ever so loved around here, there were a few Mirabelles in my daughters Halloween parade, no Luca or red pandas. It was noticably represented in the parks when I was there this summer. Heck, it's getting its own land/area. I don't really see the same thing with Luca and turning red, Encanto being a musical makes a difference I believe. Again, that's not saying any of it's reality, but more of a perception as to why those covid era pixar movies are referenced as "not so popular".

 

[LSLS]

Sure you can. Look at the all the movies they made from phase one to three. All expensive but made money. This new phase of the M-She-U is garbage and bad writing. The character development is terrible and these “C” level characters are not wanted by the fans.

We know Disney and Marvel are pushing an agenda that is not working. They have made no money on their movies in over a year and this adding up to make up a big loss. Please stop Kevin F.!

That is not really true. Of the movies that cost over $200 million, the only non-Avengers movies from phase 1-3 represented are Iron Man 3, GotG 2 (both at $200 million), and I guess Civil War (but I consider that an Avengers movie). The only phase 4-5 movie under that number is Shang Chi. Sure they spent money on some movies, but they were the ones that were tentpole "Bring everything together" films, not every single one.

Also, wouldn't C level characters describe the GotG before the MCU? I know I had never heard of them before. BUT, their entry was done well in the context of an overarching story.

They still had Strange, Wanda, and Spiderman to push forward into a new era, but they didn't run with it. I still don't think killing off Tony and getting rid of Cap was the worst thing they could do, but after they basically sent Spiderman off on his own, killed off Wanda, and sent Strange on his own multiverse adventure (I'm assuming), it really compounded the issue. They decided to completely start from scratch, and then didn't do anything to combine all the storylines.

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

At least now, even the biggest Captain Marvel fans can admit the reason the first movie was so successful was because of the release date

 

[erasure fan1]

Also, wouldn't C level characters describe the GotG before the MCU? I know I had never heard of them before. BUT, their entry was done well in the context of an overarching story.

This is right on. Actually C level might be giving them too much credit. Even a lot average comic book fans had zero clue as to who they were. There's 2 main reasons it was a success. The characters were great. And it still maintained the overarching story while standing on it's own as a film. Guardians could have easily been marvels first flop if not done correctly.

 

[Jedijax719]

So which will end up making more-Marvels or Flash?

 

[HauntedPirate]

To be fair I think those three likely did. Soul was an enigma of a Pixar film being launched direct to streaming on Christmas Day, so it benefits by being the first with reasonable numbers.

But - Luca and Turning Red were veritable hits with long streaming legs. I think it horribly hurt the Pixar brand, but there's also a reason D+ exploded out of the gate and free Pixar movies had something to do with it.

I don't know where people are getting this belief that Luca and Turning Red were not popular.

'Luca' was great. 'Turning Red' was horrid dreck. Even my teenage kids said it was awful.

I think many of us here are trying to discuss why these films aren't making money. Who are the masses you're referring to, and how was The Marvels (or any of Disney's other recent box office bombs) not catering to them?

'The Marvels' only brought in $47 million during its opening weekend, which under-performed even the lowered box office projections. So you tell me what demographic this actually hit with, because it's pretty damn apparent that it missed pretty broadly.

 

[_caleb]

'The Marvels' only brought in $47 million during its opening weekend, which under-performed even the lowered box office projections. So you tell me what demographic this actually hit with, because it's pretty damn apparent that it missed pretty broadly.

Nobody is denying that The Marvels is failing to connect with audiences. The question was who are you referring to when you talk about “the masses?” What audience is this and why aren’t they coming out to see the film?

 

[HauntedPirate]

Nobody is denying that The Marvels is failing to connect with audiences. The question was who are you referring to when you talk about “the masses?” What audience is this and why aren’t they coming out to see the film?

I haven't been involved in this conversation to this point, and haven't seen the movie, so you'd need to direct your question to whoever said "the masses". But it seems pretty apparent that it could be "the masses" that drove Infinity War and particularly Endgame to stratospheric heights at the box office but have left many Marvel movies since withering on the vine, so to speak.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Nobody is denying that The Marvels is failing to connect with audiences. The question was who are you referring to when you talk about “the masses?” What audience is this and why aren’t they coming out to see the film?

I think Marvel as a whole has a huge issue now as people are just turned off from them and what needs to be done to turn that around.

Part of it was greenlighting/accelerating too many too quickly, particularly the D+ shows which resulted in people not being able to keep up and also lowered the quality of them and stretched Feige too thin .... But also maybe just general fatigue and almost nothing they could have done would have kept the End Game level audiences - things are cyclical

I do think there are some good products in there - Loki season 2 was good, I think the Marvels was good, Shang Chi and some others were good ... But then need to build off the good, focus around them, get rid of the extraneous stuff and build up a excitement - but going to take a while now after the hole they have dug.

They should have done this already and had an Avengers 5 out that featured some old and some new and sort of re-established who the team is now

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

I think Marvel as a whole has a huge issue now as people are just turned off from them and what needs to be done to turn that around.

Part of it was greenlighting/accelerating too many too quickly, particularly the D+ shows which resulted in people not being able to keep up and also lowered the quality of them and stretched Feige too thin .... But also maybe just general fatigue and almost nothing they could have done would have kept the End Game level audiences - things are cyclical

I do think there are some good products in there - Loki season 2 was good, I think the Marvels was good, Shang Chi and some others were good ... But then need to build off the good, focus around them, get rid of the extraneous stuff and build up a excitement - but going to take a while now after the hole they have dug.

They should have done this already and had an Avengers 5 out that featured some old and some new and sort of re-established who the team is now

Basic supply and demand. Movies were an event. Now, Marvel events are no longer “events,” and in fact, there’s a deluge of content, making it less scarce, thereby reducing the demand.

 

[_caleb]

Basic supply and demand. Movies were an event. Now, Marvel events are no longer “events,” and in fact, there’s a deluge of content, making it less scarce, thereby reducing the demand.

There may be too much supply for the increasingly-passé major event box office release model, but in the streaming era when fans binge watch multiple films and entire seasons in a single setting, I think they actually want more content than any single segment might be initially interested in.

In my opinion, this is the path to profitability.

But to your point, not everything can or should be a major release (or have a major release budget).

Sounds like Disney is continuing to further address this now with the introduction of Marvel Spotlight films/series, which are set in the larger MCU but are deliberately not designed to tie in to the overall MCU storyline. Essentially, they're going to start distinguishing between Marvel one-offs and the major phase-spanning sagas.

As a fan, I really want a lot more of the really fun, but disconnected, cheaper, and more niche content like Werewolf by Night, What If...?, or the GotG Holiday Special.