Captain Marvel 2: "The Marvels" -- Nov 10, 2023 Theatrical Release

[Disney Irish]

The best way I can describe how I read it, would be the next logical step for Smallville. He's suited up and on his journey to become the hero we know. But he is still very early in that phase. Gunn has high praise for Smallville so that would make some sense.

Yeah I get it, but then that puts it in the Lois and Clark of the 90s TV show territory just in a movie. And not seeing any new ground being covered here.

 

[Disney Irish]

DC has not always been known for being darker and gritter, if anything they were previously known for the opposite to core fans. That said, both Marvel and DC have a mix of lighthearted and gritty stories, it's just that in film for the past 10-15+ years, both studios have taken polar opposite approaches thanks to success of previous media in a certain tone.

I've already said that they have both been on the different sides of that coin, heck both are over 80 years old at this point. So of course both have been a mixture of each dark and gritty and lighthearted in their long history. DC though has tried for a long time now to shed that campy skin they perfected for the first part of their history.

Since the 80s DC has been far more grittier and darker than Marvel, especially with their live action. Everything live action from DC, look at Burton's Batman to the current Snyderverse, they have all been darker and more grittier than Marvel (Netflix shows are the exception), with only a few DC TV shows like Lois and Clark and Smallville (notice its a specific character) being lighter. Go back and look at Miller's Dark Knight series from the early 80s. So its not just in the last 10-15 years. That is over 40 years, a whole generation of fans have grown up with that, which are now the core fandom.

That is not to say that Marvel hasn't been dark and gritty too, just look at the Netflix shows or even Daredevil in the comics or even Tony's Demon in a Bottle storyline. But by and large DC for the last 40+ years now DC has just been seen as more dark and gritty. Just go back and look at that article I posted, and add to it this one -

The DC Universe is Actually a Lot Darker Than You Think

The DC Universe is sometimes seen as having "outdated," campy paragons, but it's actually a dark world, with its heroes' stories reflecting this.

www.cbr.com

 

[spacemt354]

I've already said that they have both been on the different sides of that coin, heck both are over 80 years old at this point. So of course both have been a mixture of each dark and gritty and lighthearted in their long history. DC though has tried for a long time now to shed that campy skin they perfected for the first part of their history.

Since the 80s DC has been far more grittier and darker than Marvel, especially with their live action. Everything live action from DC, look at Burton's Batman to the current Snyderverse, they have all been darker and more grittier than Marvel (Netflix shows are the exception). Go back and look at Miller's Dark Knight series from the early 80s. So its not just in the last 10-15 years. That is over 40 years, a whole generation of fans have grown up with that, which are now the core fandom.

That is not to say that Marvel hasn't been dark and gritty too, just look at the Netflix shows or even Daredevil in the comics or even Tony's Demon in a Bottle storyline. But by and large DC for the last 40+ years now DC has just been seen as more dark and gritty. Just go back and look at that article I posted, and add to it this one -

The DC Universe is Actually a Lot Darker Than You Think

The DC Universe is sometimes seen as having "outdated," campy paragons, but it's actually a dark world, with its heroes' stories reflecting this.

www.cbr.com

Not everything live action, the Schumacher 90s live action Batman films were some of the campiest DC films of all time, and I remember watching the 70s/80s Superman films that were light-hearted and the Teen Titans show in the 2000s.

In my view, it really wasn't until 2005 with Batman Begins that the tide turned to make most of their live-action content darker, since it was met with commercial and financial success. But what they overlooked is that it wasn't the mature realistic tones that made it a success, it was because those tones fit the character and the world, but it didn't fit the whole DC catalog. As much as I enjoyed Man of Steel, it wasn't the proper set up for a cinematic universe. It would have been better on its own, so I am very excited to see what Gunn is going to do with this Superman. I hope it's good.

 

[Disney Irish]

Not everything live action, the Schumacher 90s live action Batman films were some of the campiest DC films of all time, and I remember watching the 70s/80s Superman films that were light-hearted and the Teen Titans show in the 2000s.

In my view, it really wasn't until 2005 with Batman Begins that the tide turned to make most of their live-action content darker, since it was met with commercial and financial success. But what they overlooked is that it wasn't the mature realistic tones that made it a success, it was because those tones fit the character and the world, but it didn't fit the whole DC catalog. As much as I enjoyed Man of Steel, it wasn't the proper set up for a cinematic universe. It would have been better on its own, so I am very excited to see what Gunn is going to do with this Superman. I hope it's good.

While I appreciate your opinion, I disagree. A few examples doesn't mean the whole brand was still seen as campy. Heck even recent Shazam movies were pretty campy, doesn't mean that is the view of the entire brand.

Like I said go read the two articles I posted, that is the view of the entire brand not just a few movies.

 

[spacemt354]

While I appreciate your opinion, I disagree. A few examples doesn't mean the whole brand was still seen as campy. Heck even recent Shazam movies were pretty campy, doesn't mean that is the view of the entire brand.

Like I said go read the two articles I posted, that is the view of the entire brand not just a few movies.

I did read the articles. The first article even starts by saying: "DC Comics has long had a reputation for being a more lighthearted, traditional, and "nice" universe of superheroes and supervillains."

And given that the DC content I grew up with fell more in line with light-hearted tones, that's where my opinion derives from. It's okay to not agree, but the articles do not change my opinion.

 

[Disney Irish]

I did read the articles. The first article even starts by saying: "DC Comics has long had a reputation for being a more lighthearted, traditional, and "nice" universe of superheroes and supervillains."

And given that the DC content I grew up with fell more in line with light-hearted tones, that's where my opinion derives from. It's okay to not agree, but the articles do not change my opinion.

And the second paragraph of that article says "In actuality, the DC Universe's more lighthearted or overtly heroic elements and characters are a minority."

What I grew up with DC was indeed lighthearted and campy but then it changed during my time, starting with the 60s campy Adam West's Batman (which I saw in reruns in the 70s) leading into Miller's Dark Knight in the 80s. Seeing the whole transition from light to dark is where I get my opinion. Everyone's opinion is derived from the sources they know, mine just happen to be during that same transition period.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I don’t think we’ll ever know, but I don’t think it’s as simple as 1 movie = x subscribers.

Certain audiences are worth much more to Disney than others, so films that win/keep those are worth more.

This is totally true. Today's Disney Company is indeed targeting certain audiences.

 

[erasure fan1]

Yeah I get it, but then that puts it in the Lois and Clark of the 90s TV show territory just in a movie. And not seeing any new ground being covered here.

Realistically, there's not a whole lot of new ground to be covered with any core superhero, batman, superman, spiderman... What you're looking for is a well told story, with actors that really feel like the characters they are playing. Will this be that? I have no idea. But it hasn't really been told in the movies yet.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

I agree both have been seen on both sides of the coin, as the article I posted indicates. But DC, especially on the comics side, has been more dark and gritty for a lot longer, and as the article indicates.

Notice how everything you've posted for DC in terms of the bright and campy was from prior to the 1980s. And notice how everything you've posted for Marvel is from the more recent Netflix shows, and not directly from the core MCU.

DC in the 80s decided that anything produced for either the comics or live action (or even cartoons) needed to be more dark. So for over 40 years now DC has been more dark. Heck Nolan leaned into this even further with his Dark Knight trilogy, which is sourced from the Miller comic line of the same name from the 80s. While Marvel went in the other direction with a majority of their characters in the comics that were used for the MCU. The only ones that remained on the "dark and gritty" side at Marvel, were the "street level" characters like Punisher and Daredevil, such as the Netflix shows. And now that those are moving into the MCU, you're starting to see the MCU become darker.

I could as easily have gone with:

And Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Falcon & Winter Soldier, What If? season one (seriously depressing), Multiverse of Madness, Echo and more for MCU dark examples.

To the general public, DC was pure camp until Nolan. So as I said, it's a recent take on DC that it's dark and gloomy compared to Marvel. DC used to be fun. It still can be fun (hello, Shazam and yes, The Flash). So I understand the choice of Gunn if that is the intention to counter the Snyder funk. Whether he can pull it off... well, it would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Prince-1]

I know what Gunn has said, but forgive me for not believe the guy who claims to have thought up the idea for the Infinity Stones and therefore the whole Infinity Saga in 90 mins over lunch. The dude exaggerates during interviews. So while the whole film might not be an origin story, ie Jor-El and Lara putting him in a ship as a baby, crash landing on Earth, and his time in Smallville, which is what I think Gunn meant, it has to touch upon his origins in some form whether that be flashback or other references to it. As how can you have Clark go through the "hero's journey" of struggling between his Kryptonian side and human upbringing without it.

And even if you remove any reference to his origin, which I still doubt, you're basically just redoing the Reeve's/Donner 1978 Superman with like the first 15 minutes removed. Again I don't see any new ground being covered here. Its the same story that has already been told numerous times, and in my opinion likely better.

Yeah I’ll believe the guy making the movie that it’s not going to have a traditional origin story which is what I was talkin about. Now maybe there will be some flashback or two but I don't think there will be any prolonged time spent rehashing what has been done already ad nauseum.

And I do like that you already know that this is not going to be good as other Superman movies, even though we have very little information on the what the movie is about and certainly no trailer of any kind. I guess I’m an old fashioned person where I like to see at least a trailer before making any decision on if a movie is going to be good or not.

 

[Disney Irish]

I could as easily have gone with:

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And Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Falcon & Winter Soldier, What If? season one (seriously depressing), Multiverse of Madness, Echo and more for MCU dark examples.

To the general public, DC was pure camp until Nolan. So as I said, it's a recent take on DC that it's dark and gloomy compared to Marvel. DC used to be fun. It still can be fun (hello, Shazam and yes, The Flash). So I understand the choice of Gunn if that is the intention to counter the Snyder funk. Whether he can pull it off... well, it would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm not disagreeing with you that certain films and TV shows in DC have had their lighthearted campy moments in recent times. So I see the point-of-view that some have given the specific examples, but lets look closer. Let's look at Keaton's Batman, he is completely dark and brooding compared to the zany campy nature of West's Batman. This is even with Nicholson's Joker having moments of campiness. And no portrayal of Batman has really gone back to the zany campy nature like West. Even with Clooney's and Kilmer's portrayal both were still playing the character as someone who has a tortured soul of loss albeit with boyish charm, West didn't have that in his portrayal. Even Smallville had Welling playing Clark as struggling and dark compared to other portrayals of Clark previously. And so while it had its lighthearted campy moments it was still darker compared to previous Superman shows. Even with those lighthearted campy examples most only lasted for a single movie or single season before going back the other direction. Heck even in the seasons of Lois and Clark I remember it started to go darker.

DC went through their zany campy time during the 50s and 60s of the Silver Age in the comics, and that reflected in the live action and cartoons of the time. But they started to go dark in the bronze age in the comics starting in the 70s and hasn't really looked back since, and that has been reflected in the live action and cartoons that have come since. So no this isn't a modern thing, as the articles I've provided indicate. I know everyone can provide certain examples of zany campy modern DC properties. But that still doesn't mean that is the overall stance of the entire DC brand. So I respect everyone's opinion and view point, but I'm talking about the overall public stance of the DC brand. The reason why the zany lighthearted campy examples didn't last very long is because the public rejected them as they wanted their DC more dark like they remember.

 

[Disney Irish]

Yeah I’ll believe the guy making the movie that it’s not going to have a traditional origin story which is what I was talkin about. Now maybe there will be some flashback or two but I don't think there will be any prolonged time spent rehashing what has been done already ad nauseum.

And I do like that you already know that this is not going to be good as other Superman movies, even though we have very little information on the what the movie is about and certainly no trailer of any kind. I guess I’m an old fashioned person where I like to see at least a trailer before making any decision on if a movie is going to be good or not.

I'm not saying it won't be good, for all I know it might be. All I'm saying is I'm not holding out hope given the character and where supposedly in his story this takes place. Maybe I'll be surprised and Gunn will tell a completely unique story with the character that has never been told. But with just how many times this characters story has been told, like I said I'm not holding out hope.

 

[Tha Realest]

Yeah I’ll believe the guy making the movie that it’s not going to have a traditional origin story which is what I was talkin about. Now maybe there will be some flashback or two but I don't think there will be any prolonged time spent rehashing what has been done already ad nauseum.

And I do like that you already know that this is not going to be good as other Superman movies, even though we have very little information on the what the movie is about and certainly no trailer of any kind. I guess I’m an old fashioned person where I like to see at least a trailer before making any decision on if a movie is going to be good or not.

Gunn has demonstrated a few times that he’s not exactly rigid in doing what he says he’s going to do. And, apart from those statements, whether or not this is a Superman origin story, based on casting alone it’s going to introduce a ton of random DC characters in a way that already feels overstuffed.

Again, I think he’s a very unique director. I didn’t care at all for Cena or the Peacemaker character, but thought the TV series he created and directed was fabulous. I also have concerns that those quirky sensibilities will lend itself to a character like Superman.

 

[Prince-1]

Gunn has demonstrated a few times that he’s not exactly rigid in doing what he says he’s going to do. And, apart from those statements, whether or not this is a Superman origin story, based on casting alone it’s going to introduce a ton of random DC characters in a way that already feels overstuffed.

Again, I think he’s a very unique director. I didn’t care at all for Cena or the Peacemaker character, but thought the TV series he created and directed was fabulous. I also have concerns that those quirky sensibilities will lend itself to a character like Superman.

Oh I think Gunn can go off the rails with quirkier characters like Peacemaker and even with The GotG but I think he is going to dial it back with Superman. He knows that he needs to nail it if he wants his new DCU to have a chance. And I 100% believe him that we are not going to get another standard origin story.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

I'm not disagreeing with you that certain films and TV shows in DC have had their lighthearted campy moments in recent times. So I see the point-of-view that some have given the specific examples, but lets look closer. Let's look at Keaton's Batman, he is completely dark and brooding compared to the zany campy nature of West's Batman. This is even with Nicholson's Joker having moments of campiness. And no portrayal of Batman has really gone back to the zany campy nature like West. Even with Clooney's and Kilmer's portrayal both were still playing the character as someone who has a tortured soul of loss albeit with boyish charm, West didn't have that in his portrayal. Even Smallville had Welling playing Clark as struggling and dark compared to other portrayals of Clark previously. And so while it had its lighthearted campy moments it was still darker compared to previous Superman shows. Even with those lighthearted campy examples most only lasted for a single movie or single season before going back the other direction. Heck even in the seasons of Lois and Clark I remember it started to go darker.

DC went through their zany campy time during the 50s and 60s of the Silver Age in the comics, and that reflected in the live action and cartoons of the time. But they started to go dark in the bronze age in the comics starting in the 70s and hasn't really looked back since, and that has been reflected in the live action and cartoons that have come since. So no this isn't a modern thing, as the articles I've provided indicate. I know everyone can provide certain examples of zany campy modern DC properties. But that still doesn't mean that is the overall stance of the entire DC brand. So I respect everyone's opinion and view point, but I'm talking about the overall public stance of the DC brand. The reason why the zany lighthearted campy examples didn't last very long is because the public rejected them as they wanted their DC more dark like they remember.

Sorry, I never heard "the public" demanding a dark and dire sensibility for DC's stories. The Flash (TV series), Lois & Clark, Smallville, etc. all had diehard fan followings. The Nolan films were respected, yes, but anything other than those were roundly rejected by "the public" who complained about Superman killing people, depressing visuals and pretty much everything else since Nolan. People liked Wonder Woman because it finally went a bit lighter with callbacks to the 70's show. People liked the first Aquaman because of Jason Momoa's abs. That's about it on what "the public" liked since Nolan. And I guess I'm not one of those "public" calling for a darker DC, because I never bothered to watch the Snyderverse, though I did see Wonder Woman (not as good as the 70's show though I liked Gal Gadot's homage to Lynda Carter), Aquaman (frothy and mostly boring), Black Adam (horrendous), Shazam (fun - really enjoyed it!) and The Flash (surprisingly laugh out loud enjoyed it in spite of Ezra Miller's awful personal behavior).

And lest you say that I'm therefore only a fan of the lighter side of comics, I'll note that I think the Marvel Netflix shows are some of the best TV I've ever seen and are far superior to anything Disney+ made and better than any Marvel releases since Endgame EXCEPT the brilliant No Way Home, which had a fair amount of angst and darkness, but also... hope and camaraderie. Which is probably the perfect combination in the morality tales that comic stories often tend to be.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sorry, I never heard "the public" demanding a dark and dire sensibility for DC's stories. The Flash (TV series), Lois & Clark, Smallville, etc. all had diehard fan followings. The Nolan films were respected, yes, but anything other than those were roundly rejected by "the public" who complained about Superman killing people, depressing visuals and pretty much everything else since Nolan. People liked Wonder Woman because it finally went a bit lighter with callbacks to the 70's show. People liked the first Aquaman because of Jason Momoa's abs. That's about it on what "the public" liked since Nolan. And I guess I'm not one of those "public" calling for a darker DC, because I never bothered to watch the Snyderverse, though I did see Wonder Woman (not as good as the 70's show though I liked Gal Gadot's homage to Lynda Carter), Aquaman (frothy and mostly boring), Black Adam (horrendous), Shazam (fun - really enjoyed it!) and The Flash (surprisingly laugh out loud enjoyed it in spite of Ezra Miller's awful personal behavior).

And lest you say that I'm therefore only a fan of the lighter side of comics, I'll note that I think the Marvel Netflix shows are some of the best TV I've ever seen and are far superior to anything Disney+ made and better than any Marvel releases since Endgame EXCEPT the brilliant No Way Home, which had a fair amount of angst and darkness, but also... hope and camaraderie. Which is probably the perfect combination in the morality tales that comic stories often tend to be.

It’s easy to see what fans liked based on how many series got multiple seasons and how many movies got sequels. And since the 80s starting with Burton’s take on Batman the fans have like primarily the darker stuff with only a few exceptions. Even the Arrowverse is darker compared to some of its predecessors.

So I appreciate your opinion and take on things and your desire for more of the lighthearted side of DC. But by and large it doesn’t seem to be what the majority of the public wants. Just my take on things, and why I don’t know if Gunn will be ideal as the architect of the new DCU, but I guess we’ll see.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

It’s easy to see what fans liked based on how many series got multiple seasons and how many movies got sequels. And since the 80s starting with Burton’s take on Batman the fans have like primarily the darker stuff with only a few exceptions. Even the Arrowverse is darker compared to some of its predecessors.

So I appreciate your opinion and take on things and your desire for more of the lighthearted side of DC. But by and large it doesn’t seem to be what the majority of the public wants. Just my take on things, and why I don’t know if Gunn will be ideal as the architect of the new DCU, but I guess we’ll see.

The sequels to Burton got progressively sillier, not darker as shown in my visual examples above.

The Snyderverse got canned in favor of the decidedly more offbeat tone Gunn brings. Wonder Woman and Aquaman (neither of which I cared for) both did better at the box office - which is the ultimate reflection of "what the majority of the public wants" - than anything Snyder did with his dour take.

It's not what *I* desire. As I've mentioned, I'm partial to darker tones in a lot of entertainment (i.e. preferring Marvel Netflix to Marvel Disney+). I'm just pointing out that - with the exception of Nolan - DC's successes have been lighter in tone, not darker, to counter your argument that "the public" wants and expects DC to be dark.

 

[Disney Irish]

The sequels to Burton got progressively sillier, not darker as shown in my visual examples above.

The Snyderverse got canned in favor of the decidedly more offbeat tone Gunn brings. Wonder Woman and Aquaman (neither of which I cared for) both did better at the box office - which is the ultimate reflection of "what the majority of the public wants" - than anything Snyder did with his dour take.

It's not what *I* desire. As I've mentioned, I'm partial to darker tones in a lot of entertainment (i.e. preferring Marvel Netflix to Marvel Disney+). I'm just pointing out that - with the exception of Nolan - DC's successes have been lighter in tone, not darker, to counter your argument that "the public" wants and expects DC to be dark.

I understand your points, I just disagree. We’ll see what Gunn does but if it’s too silly and campy, in my opinion it’ll be rejected by the public.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

I understand your points, I just disagree. We’ll see what Gunn does but if it’s too silly and campy, in my opinion it’ll be rejected by the public.

I don't know that Gunn is the best choice for the job either as I think he's the sauce, not the meal, but I'm not sure who is.

 

[FoodRockz]

Sorry, I never heard "the public" demanding a dark and dire sensibility for DC's stories. The Flash (TV series), Lois & Clark, Smallville, etc. all had diehard fan followings. The Nolan films were respected, yes, but anything other than those were roundly rejected by "the public" who complained about Superman killing people, depressing visuals and pretty much everything else since Nolan. People liked Wonder Woman because it finally went a bit lighter with callbacks to the 70's show. People liked the first Aquaman because of Jason Momoa's abs. That's about it on what "the public" liked since Nolan. And I guess I'm not one of those "public" calling for a darker DC, because I never bothered to watch the Snyderverse, though I did see Wonder Woman (not as good as the 70's show though I liked Gal Gadot's homage to Lynda Carter), Aquaman (frothy and mostly boring), Black Adam (horrendous), Shazam (fun - really enjoyed it!) and The Flash (surprisingly laugh out loud enjoyed it in spite of Ezra Miller's awful personal behavior).

Just wanted to say I agree with your Shazam and The Flash assessments. I really enjoyed both films independently, and was disappointed they were mixed up in the mess that is DC.