Captain America 4

[Disney Irish]

I don’t buy it either, we’ve now heard it had a $180 million production budget, $300 million total budget (including marketing), and a $380 million budget (no idea is that’s production or total).

My gut says the $300 million TOTAL is likely the closest as that would place the production budget near the originally reported $180 million, allow an extra $20 million for reshoots, and include $100 million for marketing (which would be the standard 50% of the production budget).

I think all we can do with so many rumored numbers is use the smell test and try to decide which makes the most sense based on previous films.

Unless we get confirmed numbers I think it’s safe to assume break even is likely in the $500m-$550m range, as much as I disagree with much of Disneys management decisions I find it hard to believe they’d ever move forward with a normal movie that required a billion just to break even. They often make bad decisions but they aren’t stupid.

And even more telling that even when Disney did have huge budgets like Endgame or Pirates 4, it was actually reported by the trades, ie confirmed by actual reporting. So Disney isn't shy about having a huge budget reported in the past, but now they are? And must be via a "hush hush" rumor only? Yeah doesn't pass the smell test at all.

 

[Phroobar]

If the budget is really 380M, the problem is not just that this movie must make almost 1B to break even.

The elephant in the room is the runaway budgets; allowing reshoot after reshoot, no real story to begin with; the creators are not sure what they are writing, etc.

Why can't we have run away budgets for Disneyland rides?

 

[Disstevefan1]

The access media will take the 180M and run with it.
Right or wrong, the consensus formula is 2.5 times the budget, therefore, 450M is break even.

Only inside the walls of TWDC do they really know the costs. If they made the movie they wanted to make, I do not think they care what the real cost are especially if the outside world thinks a movie made money.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Why can't we have run away budgets for Disneyland rides?

Unfortunately we do, wasn’t Cosmic Rewind reported at half a billion?

 

[Disney Irish]

It's been happening a lot lately with Disney movies. They hire the wrong people for the job, so they predictably fail. Because they don't know what they are doing. You can't hire a director whose never done a big budget franchise movie for a big budget franchise movie.

Let's look at his 3 previous movies...


The Girl is in Trouble made 1,000 dollars in the U.S.

Luce made 2.4 million worldwide

and

Cloverfield Paradox was seen as a moderate success at first. But it plummeted shortly afterwards and is now seen as something that destroyed the franchise. It is also hated by critics and viewers alike.

What are you going on about now?

The MCU has been created on the backs of relatively unknown or "untested" directors, it was part of the formula that built their success. Even the arguably biggest named directors they've had that helped with their success like Joss Whedon never did a big budget franchise movie prior to joining the MCU. So this idea that its only big named directors who's done a big budget franchise movie already that can come into to do a big budget franchise movie is not only shortsighted but just plain wrong.

 

[Phroobar]

Unfortunately we do, wasn’t Cosmic Rewind reported at half a billion?

That one almost makes sense considering the new building and the gutting of the old building. That was expensive for what we got. Still we haven't see that at Disneyland or DCA yet.

 

[brideck]

Luce made 2.4 million worldwide

Oh, man, this is by the guy who made Luce? I had no idea. That was a great movie -- a really thorny personal drama centered around racial identity and achievement. The cast is dynamite, too -- Naomi Watts, Tim Roth, Octavia Spencer, Kelvin Harrison Jr.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

What are you going on about now?

The MCU has been created on the backs of relatively unknown or "untested" directors, it was part of the formula that built their success. Even the arguably biggest named directors they've had that helped with their success like Joss Whedon never did a big budget franchise movie prior to joining the MCU. So this idea that its only big named directors who's done a big budget franchise movie already that can come into to do a big budget franchise movie is not only shortsighted but just plain wrong.

I agree that the lack of previous big budget experience has nothing to do with recent box office/nielsen struggles but it’s shocking to me how often I hear Disney hires say they have no connection to the projects they were hired to make, or say they disliked the previous projects, or they dislike the fans of the previous projects, or they wanted to make the fans of those precious projects uncomfortable or mad, etc. They even did this with the cruise lines when they hired someone to oversee their new ships who admitted they’d never been on a cruise, It’s weird to me Disney loves hiring people to make things they have zero emotional connection to.

When you watch interviews of the people who made something like season 1 of Mandalorian it’s evident they love Star Wars, that’s less true of hired gun directors or directors who were hired specifically because they wanted to make something different from the original projects the fans love.

 

[Disney Irish]

I agree that the lack of previous big budget experience has nothing to do with recent box office/nielsen struggles but it’s shocking to me how often I hear Disney hires say they have no connection to the projects they were hired to make, or say they disliked the previous projects, or they dislike the fans of the previous projects, or they wanted to make the fans of those precious projects uncomfortable or mad, etc. They even did this with the cruise lines when they hired someone to oversee their new ships who admitted they’d never been on a cruise, It’s weird to me Disney loves hiring people to make things they have zero emotional connection to.

When you watch interviews of the people who made something like season 1 of Mandalorian it’s evident they love Star Wars, that’s less true of hired gun directors or directors who were hired specifically because they wanted to make something different from the original projects the fans love.

Prior knowledge or love of the source material is also not a prerequisite though for being a filmmaker. I know that is hard to hear as a fan, but its a job just like any other. You are hired to do a job, and that is it. You don't have to have a deep understanding of the lore or love of it to be able to direct a movie about it. For example how many fans would actually know how to direct a film and be good at it just because they have a deep understanding and love for the subject material, probably close to zero.

Same with any other job Disney hires for. I know we as fans expect that everyone loves or has deep experience with whatever they are doing, but just like any other job out in the world that is not a requirement nor in many cases is even something desired of the applicant. Sure it can be a bonus, but not something that many look for in candidates. They look for skills to match the job description, just like any other hiring manager in any other company on the planet.

And in the case of a director they look for an interesting vision of what the screenwriter is trying to convey on the page. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

They shot almost 3 movies worth of footage. So it's obvious he wasn't the right person for the job.

Wonder if that’s on the director or the writers? Studios love to start filming with an outline but not a fully completed script, that’s gotta make the directors job infinitely harder.

I love the making of Frozen documentary on D+ as it’s a great behind the scenes look into how movies are made, I had no idea lines are literally being written and finalized the morning of the shoots, and after the test screenings massive changes are made on the fly, fascinating show.

 

[Disney Irish]

They shot almost 3 movies worth of footage. So it's obvious he wasn't the right person for the job.

Again what are you going on about now?

As you haven't seen any of the footage how do you know what was shot wasn't good? How you do you know it wasn't the vision of the overall project that changed, or outside forces that cause it to change that is beyond the control of the director?

Let alone how do you know they actually shot 3 movies worth of footage, that is just plain silly.

 

[erasure fan1]

but it’s shocking to me how often I hear Disney hires say they have no connection to the projects they were hired to make, or say they disliked the previous projects, or they dislike the fans of the previous projects, or they wanted to make the fans of those precious projects uncomfortable or mad, etc.

That's just it. And it's not just a Disney issue. The problem comes in when you hire people who don't seem to care about respecting the source material. I don't care if you aren't some uber fan, but at least put in the effort to learn about the world, the characters, the lore... Or have someone who can help with that side of it.

When you watch interviews of the people who made something like season 1 of Mandalorian it’s evident they love Star Wars,

100%! Just watch the mando season one round table discussion thing they did for D+. When you here Jon talk about star wars, you can instantly tell he cares about the ip greatly. Watch the interviews with everyone from the fallout show. The number one thing was respecting the franchise. And the people who didn't really know about it, learned. It wasn't like Halo where everyone said, no we didn't play the games or read the books. We just want to make our own thing. And what show was more successful?

 

[Disney Irish]

Wonder if that’s on the director or the writers? Studios love to start filming with an outline but not a fully completed script, that’s gotta make the directors job infinitely harder.

I love the making of Frozen documentary on D+ as it’s a great behind the scenes look into how movies are made, I had no idea lines are literally being written and finalized the morning of the shoots, and after the test screenings massive changes are made on the fly, fascinating show.

All you have to do is look at the behind the scenes of the first Iron Man movie to see how its done. RDJ and Favreau literally making up the script as they go along, its a style of movie making that is very common in Hollywood.

 

[brideck]

I haven't seen it yet, but I would guess that Disney waffled pretty hard on what they wanted this movie to be. You don't hire the writers of The Princess and the Frog and the D+ Falcon show and set it to be made by the director of Luce unless at some point in the development process you wanted it to really lean into the ramifications of having a black Captain America. For those who have seen it, does the finished product reflect that, or is it mostly only paid lip service?

Unfortunately, I can think of millions of reasons (or $$) why, from a commercial standpoint, it's a bad idea to focus this movie around that.

 

[Disney Irish]

That's just it. And it's not just a Disney issue. The problem comes in when you hire people who don't seem to care about respecting the source material. I don't care if you aren't some uber fan, but at least put in the effort to learn about the world, the characters, the lore... Or have someone who can help with that side of it.

100%! Just watch the mando season one round table discussion thing they did for D+. When you here Jon talk about star wars, you can instantly tell he cares about the ip greatly. Watch the interviews with everyone from the fallout show. The number one thing was respecting the franchise. And the people who didn't really know about it, learned. It wasn't like Halo where everyone said, no we didn't play the games or read the books. We just want to make our own thing. And what show was more successful?

Dunno, I disagree. We were just talking about Bay over in the Box Office thread. Does Bay not knowing the lore of the Transformers franchise, which by that point was decades old, make it somehow worse than if he did, no. So again I don't see it as a prerequisite to being a filmmaker on any of this projects.

 

[erasure fan1]

Prior knowledge or love of the source material is also not a prerequisite though for being a filmmaker. I know that is hard to hear as a fan, but its a job just like any other.

Absolutely. Look no further than Gilroy and star wars rogue one. He came right out and said he doesn't care about star wars. Yet he made the best of the Disney star wars films in my opinion. Now that's more rare but it speaks to Gilroys ability as a filmmaker.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

All you have to do is look at the behind the scenes of the first Iron Man movie to see how it’s done. RDJ and Favreau literally making up the script as they go along, it’s a style of movie making that is very common in Hollywood.

I’m not disputing that it’s a common way of making movies, just saying it’s got to make the directors job much harder and result in a lot of wasted film to adjust to changes.

It’s shocking to me how many large construction projects are design/build now also, it’s a huge time saver but also causes a lot of backtracking in the long run. 2 steps forward, one step back philosophy, it’s much faster than waiting years for a completed plan but also creates a lot of added expense as you have to make changes to already built structures to fit the final designs.

 

[brideck]

All you have to do is look at the behind the scenes of the first Iron Man movie to see how its done. RDJ and Favreau literally making up the script as they go along, its a style of movie making that is very common in Hollywood.

This is certainly very common for Disney's movies, but I don't know that I would go so far as to say it's common in Hollywood. In the case of Marvel, it almost feels like they're going out of their way to channel "the Marvel way" of making comics (one-page treatment, then art, then scripting -- for those who may not know) in movie form.

It's way cheaper to fix issues and lock down your ideas ahead of time, too. My (aspiring) screenwriter friends are always using the joke, "Let's fix it in pre!"

 

[Disney Irish]

This is certainly very common for Disney's movies, but I don't know that I would go so far as to say it's common in Hollywood. In the case of Marvel, it almost feels like they're going out of their way to channel "the Marvel way" of making comics (one-page treatment, then art, then scripting -- for those who may not know) in movie form.

It's way cheaper to fix issues and lock down your ideas ahead of time, too. My (aspiring) screenwriter friends are always using the joke, "Let's fix it in pre!"

Except improvisation is a fairly common directing style by letting the actors just go with a scene without being rigid and locked to the script. Maybe not the screenwriters favorite as it throws out their script for the most part, but it does lead to some great movie making.

 

[Disney Irish]

I’m not disputing that it’s a common way of making movies, just saying it’s got to make the directors job much harder and result in a lot of wasted film to adjust to changes.

It’s shocking to me how many large construction projects are design/build now also, it’s a huge time saver but also causes a lot of backtracking in the long run. 2 steps forward, one step back philosophy, it’s much faster than waiting years for a completed plan but also creates a lot of added expense as you have to make changes to already built structures to fit the final designs.

It depends on the style of the director, some like the freedom of not being locked to a script. Others find discomfort in it as they like to be locked to the structure of the written page. So its all comes down to the directors vision and style.