Captain America 4

[Disney Irish]

It's the size and scope of reshoots that matters. If it's reshoots to change how some scenes look, change the end credits, etc., that's perfectly normal and fine. But if the reshoot is changing the main villain of the story, that is changing pretty much the entire film, and historically films that have THAT much change in a reshoot don't generally come out very well (again, there are plenty of exceptions to this). And I agree with eraser, it's a red flag, not a death sentence if it's that large a change.

I don't think the size and scope really matters all the much in the long scheme of things. If when they finish principal shooting if the movie didn't test well, or if real world events cause a studio to request changes to a storyline, then reshoots occurs, from one scene to the entire film. At the end of the day as long as the end product is good, who cares how much was reshot. It doesn't diminish anything from the quality of work, in fact it should make it better.

 

[Disney Irish]

Yeah, it's a weird line to work with. What is the percentage where reshoots are good to where reshoots become a major concern? I get the question being if you need to rework the majority of the film, can you really piecemeal it together to make something that works well and is cohesive. But what is a rework of the majority of a film? I could see a major change in villain falling into that, but as I said before, that's still no guarantee it's not done well and works together in the end.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying this film falls into the major reshoot category (or even comes close), just an interesting question to me. And I am not saying the main villain has been changed, I just can see that as a major rework. At any rate, I'm excited for this one, so we will see what happens.

There is no hard and fast rule that says x percentage getting reshot should be of concern. For decades before the internet reshoots were a normal part of the process and no one in the public was any the wiser. Its only been in the last couple decades where movie productions are getting a closer look by the internet has it even become this "red flag" that has jaded a potential movies quality. As I've said a few times now, as long as the end product is good who cares how much of if was reshot. I don't care if its 1%, 5% or even 100%, as long as the end product is good that is all that matters.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yeah, it's a weird line to work with. What is the percentage where reshoots are good to where reshoots become a major concern? I get the question being if you need to rework the majority of the film, can you really piecemeal it together to make something that works well and is cohesive. But what is a rework of the majority of a film? I could see a major change in villain falling into that, but as I said before, that's still no guarantee it's not done well and works together in the end.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying this film falls into the major reshoot category (or even comes close), just an interesting question to me. And I am not saying the main villain has been changed, I just can see that as a major rework. At any rate, I'm excited for this one, so we will see what happens.

I don’t think it’s something you can quantify. I think it’s more the why. Trying to quantify creative development is a fool’s errand because the examples of success contradict each other. Sometimes it’s the singular vision of the auteur that works and other times it’s an open, collaborative process that works. Sometimes the original idea works, sometimes it’s the 600th idea. Sometimes the notes from the executives really are what made things click. Sometimes the limited budget is an asset that makes the team creative and sometimes it just truly isn’t enough. None of it’s a guarantee. Sometimes a process produces gold and sometimes it produces a turd.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

People who have no real knowledge of how shows are made like to pass judgement.

I've seen a movie be criticized because it has six writers. Why do they need so many writers when many movies have just one or two? Ignoring the fact that TV shows typically have a writer's room with a ton of people sharing ideas.

Now we see a lot of condemnation of reshoots. Why is taking steps to improve a product a bad thing?

Rogue One famously had extensive retooling and is generally considered one of the best of the Disney Star Wars era.

 

[erasure fan1]

There is no hard and fast rule that says x percentage getting reshot should be of concern. For decades before the internet reshoots were a normal part of the process and no one in the public was any the wiser.

True, you just never really know. The problem comes down to visibility. People see so much more behind the scenes. Back in the day you didn't get a whole lot of information on a film and they never told you reshoots were happening. But I do think there are circumstances that shout, maybe there's an issue. I'd really say it's probably a 50/50 chance a film with major reshoots that delay a film 8, 9, 12+ months, comes out good or bad.

Its only been in the last couple decades where movie productions are getting a closer look by the internet has it even become this "red flag" that has jaded a potential movies quality.

Using the term red flag shouldn't be taken as a negative though. Rogue one was a major red flag. The trailer was released, then we find out they are reshooting 85% of the film. That's a red flag.

As I've said a few times now, as long as the end product is good who cares how much of if was reshot. I don't care if its 1%, 5% or even 100%, as long as the end product is good that is all that matters.

Totally agree. At the end of the day, if the film is good, none of it matters. If the film stinks, it's going to be a talking point.

 

[Disney Irish]

True, you just never really know. The problem comes down to visibility. People see so much more behind the scenes. Back in the day you didn't get a whole lot of information on a film and they never told you reshoots were happening. But I do think there are circumstances that shout, maybe there's an issue. I'd really say it's probably a 50/50 chance a film with major reshoots that delay a film 8, 9, 12+ months, comes out good or bad.

Using the term red flag shouldn't be taken as a negative though. Rogue one was a major red flag. The trailer was released, then we find out they are reshooting 85% of the film. That's a red flag.

Totally agree. At the end of the day, if the film is good, none of it matters. If the film stinks, it's going to be a talking point.

I just see it different, I don't call it a "red flag" in whatever connotation you want to use. To me its a normal part of production.

 

[erasure fan1]

I just see it different, I don't call it a "red flag" in whatever connotation you want to use. To me its a normal part of production.

I'll push back a bit. Reshoots are 100% part of the process. I don't think anyone can argue that. Reshoots like rogue one, solo, justice league, snow white, sonic the hedgehog, borderlands... Are totally not normal. So at that point, red flag is warranted in my opinion. Again not good, not bad, because it can still go either way.

 

[Disney Irish]

I'll push back a bit. Reshoots are 100% part of the process. I don't think anyone can argue that. Reshoots like rogue one, solo, justice league, snow white, sonic the hedgehog, borderlands... Are totally not normal. So at that point, red flag is warranted in my opinion. Again not good, not bad, because it can still go either way.

This is where again I say I see it differently. Because what is "normal" in Hollywood in terms of reshoots where every project is different? How many and what amount of reshoots is considered normal? Is there a specific numbers? Or is it arbitrary based on how someone is wanting to put a "red flag" on it as somehow is causing a bad product. This is the point.

You gave several examples like Sonic, I don't consider it a "red flag" that it had reshoots after the negative feedback from test screenings and the teaser to the how Sonic looked, etc. That to me is normal, as its taking feedback from test screenings and other sources and updating to make the product better.

 

[erasure fan1]

Because what is "normal" in Hollywood in terms of reshoots where every project is different? How many and what amount of reshoots is considered normal? Is there a specific numbers? Or is it arbitrary based on how someone is wanting to put a "red flag" on it as somehow is causing a bad product.

No there isn't a specific number. I'm not a betting guy, but I'd put good money on Disney or WB... were absolutely not happy spending that much on reshooting that much of the film. And it for sure wasn't in the original budget. No studios plans that extensive of reshoots. A couple few days maybe a week or so? Yea, absolutely.

As far as the bad product comment goes. As I said, people with an axe to grind will 100% create a narrative around it. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not wanting to put red flag on something just to say, see, it's going to be terrible! But I do look at as something to pay attention to.

Take borderlands, my most anticipated movie of the year. It was 2021 when it finished shooting. Yea, I'm throwing up the red flag. Something went south, and caused them to do major reshoots and delay the film years. I'll still be there opening day. And they might have found a better way and it's going to do justice to the games. But I highly doubt delaying the film 2yrs was anywhere in the playbook.

You gave several examples like Sonic, I don't consider it a "red flag" that it had reshoots after the negative feedback from test screenings and the teaser to the how Sonic looked, etc. That to me is normal

Really? I can't recall a film where they completely reworked the main character causing millions in cost because fans didn't like it. I'm sure it's probably happened, but even if you could name 3 more, it's still far from common. Sonic is a great example of what I'm talking about. That original trailer was absolute nightmare fuel. If not changed, the movie flops, I have no doubt. That original model was a humongous red flag, so much so they spent a lot of money to change it. It's just not a normal thing to happen.

 

[Disney Irish]

No there isn't a specific number. I'm not a betting guy, but I'd put good money on Disney or WB... were absolutely not happy spending that much on reshooting that much of the film. And it for sure wasn't in the original budget. No studios plans that extensive of reshoots. A couple few days maybe a week or so? Yea, absolutely.

As far as the bad product comment goes. As I said, people with an axe to grind will 100% create a narrative around it. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not wanting to put red flag on something just to say, see, it's going to be terrible! But I do look at as something to pay attention to.

Take borderlands, my most anticipated movie of the year. It was 2021 when it finished shooting. Yea, I'm throwing up the red flag. Something went south, and caused them to do major reshoots and delay the film years. I'll still be there opening day. And they might have found a better way and it's going to do justice to the games. But I highly doubt delaying the film 2yrs was anywhere in the playbook.

Movies get delayed for all sorts of reasons. Heck in the last 4 years we've had so many movies delayed because of a once in a lifetime pandemic and an almost once in a lifetime dual strike. So there was a great shuffle of the entire release schedule for all studios.

Your example of Borderlands falls into bucket of the great shuffle. Because as far as I'm aware it only had one round of a 2 week reshoots. There was no major reshoots. So there is no red flag there in my opinion, it just got caught up in Lionsgate's release schedule shuffle, not because the production was troubled.

Really? I can't recall a film where they completely reworked the main character causing millions in cost because fans didn't like it. I'm sure it's probably happened, but even if you could name 3 more, it's still far from common. Sonic is a great example of what I'm talking about. That original trailer was absolute nightmare fuel. If not changed, the movie flops, I have no doubt. That original model was a humongous red flag, so much so they spent a lot of money to change it. It's just not a normal thing to happen.

See to me its a red flag if they don't listen to the criticism and just go ahead with the movie as is. To me doing reshoots to correct things isn't a red flag, its part of the creative process. We just see it differently.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

All this talk of reshoots made me think of the making of Frozen 2 series on D+... countless meetings, countless changes, countless collaboration, countless internal screenings… just to have a test screening and realize it didn’t work with the public… followed by more meetings, more changes, more collaboration… the end product was still a bit confusing but ultimately well received and profitable.

Ideally the story would just work but if it doesn’t I’d rather have them reshoot the whole movie rather than release a bad product.

 

[erasure fan1]

Movies get delayed for all sorts of reasons. Heck in the last 4 years we've had so many movies delayed because of a once in a lifetime pandemic and an almost once in a lifetime dual strike. So there was a great shuffle of the entire release schedule for all studios.

In no way is that comparable to what I'm saying. A global pandemic is not something a studio could control. The strike is also something that no one thought red flag because of delays. Completing your movie, then reshooting 50 to 75% of it is well within a studios control.

Your example of Borderlands falls into bucket of the great shuffle. Because as far as I'm aware it only had one round of a 2 week reshoots. There was no major reshoots.

Borderlands was completed in 2021. Two weeks of reshoots are not taking almost 2yrs to complete. Even with the strike. It's extremely rare for a movie to finish filming then release 3+yrs later. Again not a death sentence, but a red flag.

In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter. If you consider red flag a negative and just a reason people bash a film, I won't convince you otherwise. In the end we have the same outcome, if the movie is good it didn't matter.

The thing I just can't get behind is the mindset that studios plan on huge lengthy reshoots that change huge portions of the film. In no world would any executive want to add 50/60/70% on to an already 180/200+ million dollar budget. Sure they do it because the alternative could be a catastrophe. But they absolutely don't factor that in when planning a film.

 

[Disney Irish]

In no way is that comparable to what I'm saying. A global pandemic is not something a studio could control. The strike is also something that no one thought red flag because of delays. Completing your movie, then reshooting 50 to 75% of it is well within a studios control.

My point was that delays for movies happen, it does not automatically mean a troubled production requiring major reshoots. I was using the fact that Hollywood had two major disruption events in the last 4 years as an example on why major delays would occur.

Borderlands was completed in 2021. Two weeks of reshoots are not taking almost 2yrs to complete. Even with the strike. It's extremely rare for a movie to finish filming then release 3+yrs later. Again not a death sentence, but a red flag.

You're making assumptions that the reason for delays was them reshooting the majority of the film. That is just not the case. I've found no confirmation or even substantiated rumor that Borderlands had anything more than 2 weeks worth of reshoots. For all we know it was a simple scheduling issue in getting the huge ensemble cast back together in one spot for the reshoot. I know that was the case with the director, which is why the studio had to bring in another director just for the reshoot.

We've also seen examples recently of completed movies being shelved by studios for various reasons, including for tax purposes. So there is that too. So just because there was a delay in release does not mean there was a troubled production requiring a majority of the film being reshot.

In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter. If you consider red flag a negative and just a reason people bash a film, I won't convince you otherwise. In the end we have the same outcome, if the movie is good it didn't matter.

I'm sorry but the term "red flag" has a negative connotation. There is no other way to look at it. You don't say something has a "red flag" and then look at it in a positive light. No you're automatically looking for problems. So I don't know how you can say its not a negative thing. And it most certain is used by people as a reason to bash a film, especially if it doesn't do well.

The thing I just can't get behind is the mindset that studios plan on huge lengthy reshoots that change huge portions of the film. In no world would any executive want to add 50/60/70% on to an already 180/200+ million dollar budget. Sure they do it because the alternative could be a catastrophe. But they absolutely don't factor that in when planning a film.

No one said that any studio goes into production on a movie expecting to reshoot a majority of a film after principal production. But they do certainly budget in a bit of reshoots into the budget, everything from small minor pick-ups to an entire scene reshoot. We certainly know this is true of Marvel films, its part of the reason why their budgets are so high.

 

[erasure fan1]

No one said that any studio goes into production on a movie expecting to reshoot a majority of a film after principal production.

Welllllll, that is exactly what you're saying. All I've said is huge massive reshoots and delays are not normal and can be a red flag. You've said over and over it's a normal part of production. It's absolutely not.

I just see it different, I don't call it a "red flag" in whatever connotation you want to use. To me its a normal part of production.

This is where again I say I see it differently. Because what is "normal" in Hollywood in terms of reshoots where every project is different?

___________________________________________

My point was that delays for movies happen, it does not automatically mean a troubled production requiring major reshoots.

That's fine, but not in anyway related to what I was saying. I agree 100% that reshoots happen and they're part of the process, we've established that. But referencing the pandemic as a reason there's long delays, while it did happen, you know that isn't what I was talking about.

You're making assumptions that the reason for delays was them reshooting the majority of the film. That is just not the case. I've found no confirmation or even substantiated rumor that Borderlands had anything more than 2 weeks worth of reshoots

100% I am, that's the point. A movie completed in 2021, not released for 3 and half years or more, is a red flag. And the, it's only 2 weeks of reshoots, actually reinforces red flag. That doesn't mean I'm going to rail on it that it's going to be a giant bomb.

I'm sorry but the term "red flag" has a negative connotation. There is no other way to look at it. You don't say something has a "red flag" and then look at it in a positive light.

Sure it can be, but it's a normal thing. I'm also not saying it's a positive thing. It's just a, hey there could be something there. I think the problem is, like a lot of people here, they look at everything through the lense of axe to grind YouTubers. I've seen many headlines that say, X film is in massive trouble, huge reshoots signal major problems on set! Red flag shouldn't mean the world is ending. I don't eliminate a candidate from a job because they had, let's say, a lapse in jobs. It's, hey maybe I should look into this a bit. It's a red flag. There might be a completely good reason. At the same time, it could very well be a problem.

 

[Disney Irish]

Welllllll, that is exactly what you're saying. All I've said is huge massive reshoots and delays are not normal and can be a red flag. You've said over and over it's a normal part of production. It's absolutely not.



___________________________________________

Point to me where I said that a studio budgets for massive reshoots. Because I did not, and none of those posts you quoted say that. You're reading too much into what I've said and trying to find some "gotcha" moment. What I've been saying is that for me personally I don't find red flags in reshoots, no matter how much is done. I've never claimed, and I don't believe anyone ever claimed, that a studio budgets for a majority of the film to be reshot.

That's fine, but not in anyway related to what I was saying. I agree 100% that reshoots happen and they're part of the process, we've established that. But referencing the pandemic as a reason there's long delays, while it did happen, you know that isn't what I was talking about.

That might not have been what you were talking about, but I'm providing an alternative reason on why delays happen especially the last 4 years. You seem not to want to accept that other reasons for delays can happen, and its only reshoots that cause major delays. More on this in the next point.

100% I am, that's the point. A movie completed in 2021, not released for 3 and half years or more, is a red flag. And the, it's only 2 weeks of reshoots, actually reinforces red flag. That doesn't mean I'm going to rail on it that it's going to be a giant bomb.

So you can't think of any other legitimate reason, none at all, on why this release could have been delayed besides major reshoots?

Sure it can be, but it's a normal thing. I'm also not saying it's a positive thing. It's just a, hey there could be something there. I think the problem is, like a lot of people here, they look at everything through the lense of axe to grind YouTubers. I've seen many headlines that say, X film is in massive trouble, huge reshoots signal major problems on set! Red flag shouldn't mean the world is ending. I don't eliminate a candidate from a job because they had, let's say, a lapse in jobs. It's, hey maybe I should look into this a bit. It's a red flag. There might be a completely good reason. At the same time, it could very well be a problem.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[erasure fan1]

Point to me where I said that a studio budgets for massive reshoots. Because I did not, and none of those posts you quoted say that. You're reading too much into what I've said and trying to find some "gotcha" moment.

Because those are your direct responses to me saying it's not normal for those type of reshoots and studios don't plan for it. My whole argument was reshoots of that significance are not what a company plans and it can be red flag. I'm not reading into anything, you said it, I quoted it. You have directly opposed what I've said. So if I say studios don't plan for that, and you say, I don't believe that's the case. That would indicate that you think they do.

That might not have been what you were talking about, but I'm providing an alternative reason on why delays happen especially the last 4 years. You seem not to want to accept that other reasons for delays can happen, and its only reshoots that cause major delays. More on this in the next point.

My question would be why the heck are you providing that? That's never been the argument and does nothing to support your argument about my statement. I did accept that those were all possible delay. They just don't relate to the situation we were discussing. Here are the points I've made

*Reshoots happen, it's very normal.
*Extensive reshoots, not normal, possible red flag.
*No company plans on extensive reshoots, that's not a thing.
*Things outside a studios control, like a global pandemic, aren't red flags

So you can't think of any other legitimate reason, none at all, on why this release could have been delayed besides major reshoots?

Yes, again I could think of a thousand. As you said, reshoots are normal. But are they normal a year and a half or so after filming was completed? Not really. Again, it's not necessarily bad, but it is a question mark as they've given no good reason as to why.

 

[Disney Irish]

Because those are your direct responses to me saying it's not normal for those type of reshoots and studios don't plan for it. My whole argument was reshoots of that significance are not what a company plans and it can be red flag. I'm not reading into anything, you said it, I quoted it. You have directly opposed what I've said. So if I say studios don't plan for that, and you say, I don't believe that's the case. That would indicate that you think they do.

This is where you are reading into my posts something that isn't there.

I do not think any Studio budgets into a production major reshoots of an entire or even majority of a movie post production.

My question would be why the heck are you providing that? That's never been the argument and does nothing to support your argument about my statement. I did accept that those were all possible delay. They just don't relate to the situation we were discussing. Here are the points I've made

*Reshoots happen, it's very normal.
*Extensive reshoots, not normal, possible red flag.
*No company plans on extensive reshoots, that's not a thing.
*Things outside a studios control, like a global pandemic, aren't red flags

Because there are any number of reasons why a delay happened for Borderlands, none of which is caused by any production issues requiring major reshoots. As its a discussion forum I'm just providing some of those potential reasons.

Yes, again I could think of a thousand. As you said, reshoots are normal. But are they normal a year and a half or so after filming was completed? Not really. Again, it's not necessarily bad, but it is a question mark as they've given no good reason as to why.

Any why do they need to give a reason for the delay? All they need to provide is a release date on when you can see it.

Since we've gone round and round on this for a bit now, how about we just agree to disagree and move on. I don't see reshoots in any form as being a "red flag" you do. We just see it differently, there is no reason why we need to agree on it.

 

[erasure fan1]

This is where you are reading into my posts something that isn't there.

I do not think any Studio budgets into a production major reshoots of an entire or even majority of a movie post production.

Then you are disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me. Otherwise in the beginning when I say it's not normal.... and can be a red flag. You say that's true, I agree.

Since we've gone round and round on this for a bit now, how about we just agree to disagree and move on.

Agreed.

 

[Disney Irish]

Then you are disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me. Otherwise in the beginning when I say it's not normal.... and can be a red flag. You say that's true, I agree.

Not at all, but lets move on.

 

[easyrowrdw]

Neither Ross or Esposito is the main villain. The main villain is in the trailer. He speaks quite a lot.

Sam is the villain??!!!