Burbank....we have a problem!

[TP2000]

Technically' Disneyland is the flagship.

Thank you. I always chuckle when some folks who have never been to Disneyland publicly state that. One visit to Disneyland and it's obvious that it's the flagship of the fleet.

As a West Coaster who visits WDW on occasion, it's been interesting to watch folks here realize that Disneyland is ahead in the lead, particularly when it comes to routine maintenance and showmanship standards. It's gotten to the point where it's hard to believe the exact same company owns and operates both the Florida and the California properties, since their maintenance, appearance and showmanship standards have such a noticeably wide gap between them.

 

[Thurp]

A lot of us complain about Disney because we love it. We know what the company is capable of given money and freedom (DisneySea for example.) We want to see them succeed so badly that we spend hours on boards like this one talking about it.

At the same time, we need to be adult enough to give Universal credit where credit is due and some people on this board refuse to do so, akin to some of the epic Windows users vs Mac users flame-wars when in reality, both systems should be praised in different ways.

 

[steve2wdw]

In my original post, I mentioned the word "flagship"....and here's my explaination of how I used it. Disneyland (as a singular park) is the "flagship park" (in my opinion) where as WDW is the Disney Company's "flagship resort". This was how I used "flagship" when relating to WDW in the first post. I only say this, as I feel when it comes to marketing, especially multi-day vacations, it is WDW that gets pushed in the media (hence the flagship resort status). Didn't want to offend any DL or WDW fans out there, it was just a statement.

 

[Disneyfanman]

I remember 10 years ago, during the Pressler/Harris era, when Disneyland was being referred to as a "has-been" or even a potential target for closure. When fan sites posted picture after picture of neglected facilities, cleanliness issues, or other nasty things in the park. It wasn't until all of the effort went into sprucing up the place for their 50th anniversary that the DLR emerged again as the leader in quality and profit.

As a frequent visitor at both resorts, I can tell you that I agree with the current fan assessments that the resorts are moving in different directions. DL has really stepped up its game in recent years and provides, again, the best theme park experience that I can imagine. WDW HAS slipped in comparison to its best days, and although it is always worthy of one's time it pales (operationally) to its best days.

It is still, in my opinion, the best vacation resort in the world. So when I read all of this negativity, I try and keep that in perspective. I can't imagine anywhere in the world that I would rather spend a week at than WDW. Even with broken Yetis and DTD that is currently "challenged" and missing lights of winter and cut backs in the "Disney Difference" and broken Fantasmic effects, it is still a wonderful place to go. The problems are fixable.

The moment that I catch my first sight of the castle, none of that matters. For the moment anyway.

 

[GrumpyFan]

The OP and others seem to be trying to paint a picture that WDW is falling into the swamp and that attendance has dropped 10%, not just the mere 1% that was recently divulged. This just sounds overly dramatic to me. While I agree that WDW needs some TLC, I hardly think it's time to sound the alarms. If I had to guess, I would say that 1% is attributable to people shaving a day off their trip to WDW to go and see Harry Potter at Universal.

I happen to think it's a good thing that HP is such a big hit for Universal, they needed something like this. But, I think it's a good thing for Disney and the other parks in the area as well. It's called competition, and it's a good thing. It keeps everybody on their toes, innovating and trying to come up with new ideas to get people to come back and visit. Regardless of what the most recent numbers say, Disney is hardly hurting. We were there in early October and found the parks to be the most crowded we've ever seen during this time of year. And, in case you haven't noticed, they are doing something in Fantasyland that looks pretty big, plus Star Tours is closed for a MAJOR overhaul. So, while Universal has succeeded in this round, I think that when Star Tours 2.0 opens and then the new Fantasyland begins opening, that 1% will come back.

All this isn't to say that I don't think there's more room for improvement, because I believe there's lots that can be done. Knowing Disney, they're not sitting idle and crying about getting beaten by Uni. No, they're continuing to do what they've always done, create, innovate, and find new ways to entertain and make money.

 

[Mickey_777]

I think WDW actually is on the verge of a renaissance. It may be little by little (and to some TOO little) but stuff is getting done. You have the additions to World showcase. A fresh Main street. The spectacular Pooh queue. Hyperion Wharf on the way. The Art of Animation resort. Even how Mousegears got freshened up is a sign of things to come not to mention the FL expansion.

DL, as awesome as it is, only has 2 parks and no transportation system (to me, the Monorail doesn't count). It's easy to spend money on two parks alone. When I was there, I saw as much if not more need of fresh paint and maintanence than at WDW though...so maybe they are cheap.

In any case, I see WDW slowly but surely regaining it's strength. LOL, maybe all they need is encouragement. Come on TDO, you can do it! LOL

 

[epcotWSC]

I think they're slowly but surely turning the corner. I hope that more stuff comes at a faster rate. It's not as much fun when there's not something new to see at Disney. Last time I went, the only new thing was the refurbished Hall of Presidents, yay, lol.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

And here is where I think that Save WDW site would have helped... We could have a person on the inside taking pictures of all the failings... We could have "reporters" writing articles on the slow demise of the once great WDW resort... We can really stir up the pot if done right... And before anyone says it won't work, the power of blogs and the internet is amazing... And the power of the media cannot be denied... Someone needs to hold the powers that be responsible.. Iger isn't going to do it... So, let's force his hand and let us, the fans, do it...

I'm serious... Domain name already bought... Just need people who have time and can work on websites... Let's do this!!!!

SAVE WDW darn it!!!!!

General Grizz?? Is that you?!?!?!?!?

:lol:

 

[scottnj1966]

If you're a Disney fan, and you spend any time on the discussion forums on this and the other sites out there, you've surely noticed all the WDW bashing that's been going on out there. The numbers out of Orlando seem to be reflecting the general "been there, done that" mentality of the general public towards WDW. It might be that 2010 will go down as the year that pushed Burbank to finally make some needed changes at this behemoth of a resort. Will Iger and/or Staggs finally step up and make some meaningful management changes at the company's flagship resort? Could we be on the verge of a WDW Renaissance? Can The Disney Company reinvent WDW the way they're reinventing DCA out west, or will they even bother? It's seems that WDW is at that point where something MAJOR needs to be done, or it might be too late to turn the tide. What are your thoughts?

Have you been to the parks anytime the last three years? They have been packed, even when they should be quiet. The last couple years was to refurb everything, that is exactly what they have been doing. Everything is getting back (or better) then it was when it opened.
They are adding on to Fantasyland, a huge undertaking.
I am sure after that is complete we will start hearing what will be next on the horizon.
I would love if they just went crazy and started adding lots to the parks, but we all know that is not how it is done.
We also have to wait until this country is back on it's feet. I do not know anyone that feels like we are out of woods yet.

 

[cheezbat]

The economy is definitely playing a part in attendence at the parks... and for all of you people who think just because you went to the parks one week and it was packed means nothing. I have friends who work at the parks, and their hours have been cut this year, they also tell me that they notice slightly smaller crowds compared to last year, and everybody is talking about Potter.
WDW resort will finish off this year with smaller attendence figures than last year. Not a big difference, but less nonetheless...which should raise flags for WDW. Why? Because this could continue. More and more people in my circle of friends and family are turning from spending time at Disney for other things. WDW is slowly losing people's interest.

They aren't the only ones losing out though....from what I've heard, Sea World and Busch Gardens attendence also dropped this year...Universal's is up. Potter is taking away from the other parks this year.

Universal is innovating...and have other exciting things on the slate...
What is WDW doing? What's happening after the much-needed Fantasyland Expansion? All four parks need new attractions to freshen them up and get people to come back. And no, sorry, while Star Tours 2 will indeed be awesome, it's more or less an upgrade from the previous attraction. Studios NEEDS more rides. Animal Kingdom needs more rides. Epcot could use a new pavillion and a complete overhaul of Imagination. MK could use another E-ticket attraction and a proper Space Mountain redo.
WDW should get back to innovation and imagination!

 

[magic1]

My wife and I have been taking our son to WDW since he was two. Now twelve years later, We decided to skip a year or maybe two( we have yet to decide for next year ). Mostly because the lack of any new attractions. We love the magic that Disney offers but it seems to be lacking on our recent trips. When you see all the attention that DL has been getting and the lack of attention WDW has been receiving, you think twice about handing your money over to WDW. Granted I am going through Grand Floridian withdrawals, I will survive.

 

[floridabill]

It is very sad what disney has become. I wish they read these boards, well unfortunately they probably do and just don't care who knows. I have contributed to much disney bashing, I really do love disney but the things they are doing with is truly disgusting. And as fans we really don't know where they are going or what is in store. If they really plan on cutting back building in the parks for the next couple of years ouch to WDW. I thought disney stayed on top of figures and too conduct surveys in the parks, but it seems the less people that visit there only solution is to cut more, Not going and spending your money there might not even work.

They need to realize You have to spend a little to make a little, build it and they will come. Ik we are all crazy on this site cause we want disney to be the best, but are they really that bad off? I thought in the past they were in worse times that this? Some people are calling them the next GM and that they will close and go bankrupt and the state will have to bail them out. I thought disney was smarter than that would they really let that happen?? It is a shame they are not run by dreamers anymore

 

[fosse76]

If I had to guess, I would say that 1% is attributable to people shaving a day off their trip to WDW to go and see Harry Potter at Universal.

Universal saw a 36% increase in attendance. If that statement were true, Disney would have seen a bigger decrease. As such, it means a significant number of people came for Universal and Universal only. There was no spillover effect to Disney. In fact, if anything, it can mean that without some spillover from Harry Potter it is probable that Disney could have seen an even bigger decrease.

Regardless of what the most recent numbers say, Disney is hardly hurting. We were there in early October and found the parks to be the most crowded we've ever seen during this time of year.

Parks don't make their profits from gate admissions. It's the in-park guest spending that makes them their money. And just because the parks look crowded doesn't mean much either. I've been to the parks and they were jammed with people...tht is until I got into a line...which were empty.

And, in case you haven't noticed, they are doing something in Fantasyland that looks pretty big, plus Star Tours is closed for a MAJOR overhaul. So, while Universal has succeeded in this round, I think that when Star Tours 2.0 opens and then the new Fantasyland begins opening, that 1% will come back.

Oh please. Adding a new film to a 20 year-old ride isn't going to attract the crowds people on this board think it will. And FLE might not have that big an effect either.

 

[Rob562]

[Re: Star Tours 2]Oh please. Adding a new film to a 20 year-old ride isn't going to attract the crowds people on this board think it will. And FLE might not have that big an effect either.

If Star Tours 2.0 goes through with everything talked about in early rumors, it will be FAR beyond just replacing the movie, including new in-simulator effects and interactive animatronics...

-Rob

 

[disneyny]

I am a lurker who is always reading but rarely speaks up. One of the earlier posts got me fired up and I had to reply. It was where one of you was talking about starting a save wdw campaign. Maybe that is what we need to do. I used to read miceage a lot and read Al Lutz's "declining by degrees" updates every week about all the little things that Disneyland was letting slip. Those ARE what makes the difference to us. We love Disney for that Magic and the little things- that is what Universal will never have. They are great, they are innovative but they will never capture that magic spirit of Disney. They are two different beasts- both great in ways but comparing them doesn't always work. I don't go to Disney for the rides only either. It would not make me plan an extra trip just because they opened 10 great new thrill rides- not if they let the little things go. That is what I go for- for that feeling I get at Disney- the same feeling other posters described. That is why I bought DVC- does it make economical sense? Maybe yes maybe no but I bought with my heart not my pocket book on that one. I truly do hope WDW is turning a corner and the little things they do are what gives me hope- the sprucing up Main Street and things like that. I am optimistic about Hyperion Wharf until I have reason not to be. But, maybe a campaign of how WDW is "declining by degrees" is just what we need. Sign me up- I will help you start it! It sure seems to have worked for Al Lutz and Disneyland. Don't underestimate the power of the pen....or the keyboard.

 

[flavious27]

If you're a Disney fan, and you spend any time on the discussion forums on this and the other sites out there, you've surely noticed all the WDW bashing that's been going on out there. The numbers out of Orlando seem to be reflecting the general "been there, done that" mentality of the general public towards WDW. It might be that 2010 will go down as the year that pushed Burbank to finally make some needed changes at this behemoth of a resort. Will Iger and/or Staggs finally step up and make some meaningful management changes at the company's flagship resort? Could we be on the verge of a WDW Renaissance? Can The Disney Company reinvent WDW the way they're reinventing DCA out west, or will they even bother? It's seems that WDW is at that point where something MAJOR needs to be done, or it might be too late to turn the tide. What are your thoughts?

The numbers show that people are trying out IOA because of the novelty of WWHP. Disney does not have a similar franchise that they can pay for. At the same time, wdw is going through with the fantasyland expansion which will use land that is either vacant or underutilized. They added toy story mania in the last year also.

As for DCA, that idea was doa. they are now putting in the money and design work that should have been done before. none of the parks in wdw were ever in the dire straits that dca was in.

As for a renaissance at WDW, what can they do? Water Parks are covered. Hotels for the most part are covered. There were alot of rides and attractions added in the last decade. There will always be talk of a 5th park, but are there any ideas left that they could use to create a park with between 10 - 20 attractions?

 

[flavious27]

Universal saw a 36% increase in attendance. If that statement were true, Disney would have seen a bigger decrease. As such, it means a significant number of people came for Universal and Universal only. There was no spillover effect to Disney. In fact, if anything, it can mean that without some spillover from Harry Potter it is probable that Disney could have seen an even bigger decrease.



Parks don't make their profits from gate admissions. It's the in-park guest spending that makes them their money. And just because the parks look crowded doesn't mean much either. I've been to the parks and they were jammed with people...tht is until I got into a line...which were empty.



Oh please. Adding a new film to a 20 year-old ride isn't going to attract the crowds people on this board think it will. And FLE might not have that big an effect either.

I want to know what the exact increase in attendance was at universal, percentages mean nothing without hard figures. Last year all of universal attracted 10.1 million (IOA 4.6, US 5.5), just slightly more than DHS at 9.7. That was following a year when US was down 10% and IOA was down 11.3% while wdw increased about 1%.

What the numbers mean is what disney said when they announced this, that with less discounts, the numbers dipped slightly. The numbers are going to be at the same level as 2008; they went up about 1% in 2009 and will down about 1% in 2010. Universal's numbers show that they regained what they lost in 09, in 2010 is still up in the air because we need hard numbers. Did they increase only IOA's numbers in the quarter 35% over the previous quarter (which makes sense because summer attendance increases), is it a 35% increase from the same quarter last year for IOA?

I know that some people are calling WWHP a great ROI for universal but that only matters what the licensing contract is. Universal spent atleast $200 million to retheme part of lost continent and add Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey. They have added staff for the shops they added along with the restaurants. Forbidden Journey needs to be maintained and have its downtime kept to nearly 0%. With the long goodbye part 2 being released in july, will WWHP be able to maintain the same amount of foot traffic in 2012 and beyond?

 

[GrumpyFan]

Universal saw a 36% increase in attendance. If that statement were true, Disney would have seen a bigger decrease. As such, it means a significant number of people came for Universal and Universal only. There was no spillover effect to Disney. In fact, if anything, it can mean that without some spillover from Harry Potter it is probable that Disney could have seen an even bigger decrease.

Agreed, 36% is pretty significant, but it won't last. I might suggest that HP actually helped Disney as well. It's almost impossible to know if any of those people only went to Uni, however I doubt that's the case. Most people who come to central FL usually do for several days, so there may have been a good many of those HP fans who came primarily for that, but also took in a day or more at WDW. I personally know of two families on my street that did just this.

Parks don't make their profits from gate admissions. It's the in-park guest spending that makes them their money. And just because the parks look crowded doesn't mean much either. I've been to the parks and they were jammed with people...tht is until I got into a line...which were empty.

Understood, but I wasn't talking about profit, just number of guests. The profit problem is a whole other discussion that I believe relates to the products their trying to sell.

Oh please. Adding a new film to a 20 year-old ride isn't going to attract the crowds people on this board think it will. And FLE might not have that big an effect either.

Don't underestimate the power of the force. Darth Vader

Sorry, couldn't resist! Seriously though. While Star Wars may be over 30 years old, it has a huge fan base, and it's still growing. Don't believe me? Just look at Star Wars weekends.

Now, FLE, yeah, too soon to tell. But, the additions are indicative of Disney at least trying to keep moving forward, even if they are going back to movies that came out 20 years ago to do so. They're doing so, I believe, because these movies and characters have held up to the test of time and are now considered classics, meaning they obviously appeal to somebody.

 

[Captain Chaos]

General Grizz?? Is that you?!?!?!?!?

:lol:

No... thank god no.. LOL....

 

[Captain Chaos]

I am a lurker who is always reading but rarely speaks up. One of the earlier posts got me fired up and I had to reply. It was where one of you was talking about starting a save wdw campaign. Maybe that is what we need to do. I used to read miceage a lot and read Al Lutz's "declining by degrees" updates every week about all the little things that Disneyland was letting slip. Those ARE what makes the difference to us. We love Disney for that Magic and the little things- that is what Universal will never have. They are great, they are innovative but they will never capture that magic spirit of Disney. They are two different beasts- both great in ways but comparing them doesn't always work. I don't go to Disney for the rides only either. It would not make me plan an extra trip just because they opened 10 great new thrill rides- not if they let the little things go. That is what I go for- for that feeling I get at Disney- the same feeling other posters described. That is why I bought DVC- does it make economical sense? Maybe yes maybe no but I bought with my heart not my pocket book on that one. I truly do hope WDW is turning a corner and the little things they do are what gives me hope- the sprucing up Main Street and things like that. I am optimistic about Hyperion Wharf until I have reason not to be. But, maybe a campaign of how WDW is "declining by degrees" is just what we need. Sign me up- I will help you start it! It sure seems to have worked for Al Lutz and Disneyland. Don't underestimate the power of the pen....or the keyboard.

That was me... I sugested several times we do a Save WDW site... I almost had it going, but the person who was going to help me couldn't due to other obligations...

The pen/keyboard is a mighty weapon... Again, if anyone wants to help out, if you know how to design websites, or anything, let me know.. PM me.. The WDWMagic community can lead the charge to Save WDW!!!!