Bob Iger at WDW now ... BoD to Follow?

[PhotoDave219]

I'm sure there was a tipping point. I'm not privy to every move these very big business leaders make. I know they were prepared to spend a large sum on WDW upgrades in 2008 and then the economy crashed and they got very gun shy. It's part of why they decided to dump $2 billion and counting (and we'll never know the final real cost) on NGE. So, no, I don't think they all were in denial (some folks certainly were -- Rasulo and Staggs being two). If you ever got George K in a weak moment (say surround him with some cute 20-something CPers from Iowa and Nebraska!), I think he would have said that WDW was largely a mess when he left for Paris in 2006 and much more of a mess when he returned from Anaheim in 2012/2013.

But I don't think it was any one thing, as you could likely surmise. It was a combo deal over many years. And it will still take many years to make things better. I truly think it will be 2021 before WDW is about where it needs to be.

Yeah, thats the complete observation I've found looking at the attendance numbers. 9/11 killed any momentum and didnt rebound until 2004/5. Then the housing bubble busts in 2008 and doesnt really recover in the attendance until 2012.

Clearly they got gunshy and with good reason. Of course.... this left the parks in the mess they're in.

 

[WDW1974]

Is there a list out there that describes what was supposed to open with HKDL before Disney cut 60% of the planned menu?

I have no idea. I've written about it many times.

Let' see if I can spend five minutes doing it again without the materials in front of me:

You had two lands (Toontown and Frontierland) removed. You had the following attractions:

Tomorrowland:
Autopia (added later);

Adventureland:
Haunted Mansion (DL's facade, slightly different and updated show);
Jungle-themed RnRC/Dinosaur hybrid (coaster with sound indoors with CTX's dinos); ***was conceived as park's signature E-Ticket;
Boneyard (same as DAK, at exit of above);
Aladdin spinner;

Frontierland:
Lewis and Clark raft ride (taken entirely from Disney's America concept);
Tough To Be a Bug (yes, really ... Eisner loved it!);

Fantasyland:
Small World (added lateer);
Peter Pan's Flight;
Adventures of Little Mermaid (the DLP/Baxter concept);
Sleeping Beauty castle walk-thru (same as in Anaheim);

Toontown:
Barnstormer-like kiddie coaster;
Mickey's House;
Minnie's House;
Donald's Boat;
Toontown Trolley;

That is just off the top of my head but is likely 98% accurate. Naturally, you lost dining and retail venues as well.

 

[WDW1974]

Yes, but he was President and COO when they were sold. Iger wasn't an outsider brought in to be CEO. He was Eisner's #2 for several years.

I like it when someone other than me actually says that.

 

[WDW1974]

Nah, the burst of the housing bubble did more to kill Flamingo Crossing than anything. From 2008-2011, the resort as a whole showed 0.64% growth. MK was up 0.46% Ep was down -1%, DHS was up 1% and DAK was the most resilient, growing 2.5%. Thats pretty awful overall.

Since 2011, the resort is up 8.5% as a whole, MK up 13% while the rest of the parks are all around 6% growth. You could look at that a few ways.... mostly that the secondary parks really havent recovered from the 1-2 punch of 9/11 and the housing bubble. Or that those parks haven't been invested in either. MK has with the fantasyland expansion and you see its result.

You'd have to dig & compare tenant lists but I wouldnt be shocked to see some of the same names that were meant to go into Flamingo moved to Disney Springs.

Flamingo was supposed to be very downmarket. You were supposed to get Walgreen's ... and Comfort Suites ... and Olive Garden etc. All the exact same stuff you can get a mile or two away on 192. There was no reason for it to ever even be a proposal.

Now, last I heard the developer of the two Marriott suite brands that are being built there were thinking of adding up to six more, but I very much doubt that will happen.

Point being, I doubt anyone who was interested in coming aboard the FC project decided to open at DS instead. Totally different markets.

 

[WDW1974]

Expansion of Hong Kong Disneyland was demanded by the Government of Hong Kong.

Yes, but Disney always planned on doing so anyway. It was a disagreement on what the expansion would be and who would pay that delayed it ... a bit.

Disney knew, for instance, that it would open Autopia and Small World very soon after opening. One opened within a year and the other within three.

 

[WDW1974]

Private equity is how most restaurant company start. You have three levels usually in successful chain private equity money and plays. The start up the established and what we call rocket equity.

They each have their returns that they expect and when to get out. If you get money from private equity they are all about pushing for exit which usually is an IPO these days. Especially with the huge IPO of the last few chains this year.

Issue with private equity is just like public company they are always pushing for growth no matter what. Which can kill most brands of not done controlled

It does kill BRANDS because these companies are not in the business of selling food to the masses, they become all about selling a BRAND.

You see it even with big dogs like McD's today. And smaller ones ... I love the 'games' done with Romano's Macaroni Grill, which was once my favorite in that segment.

Frankly, THIS is the reason why 'chain snobs' should be staying away ... not because they feel they are too good to dine at them (I hate that 'tude! I know billionaires that will regularly have a bite at Denny's or McD's and some online snob will say ''I would never eat crap like that!!!) But that was a digression ...

 

[Mouse Trap]

Flamingo was supposed to be very downmarket. You were supposed to get Walgreen's ... and Comfort Suites ... and Olive Garden etc. All the exact same stuff you can get a mile or two away on 192. There was no reason for it to ever even be a proposal.

Now, last I heard the developer of the two Marriott suite brands that are being built there were thinking of adding up to six more, but I very much doubt that will happen.

Point being, I doubt anyone who was interested in coming aboard the FC project decided to open at DS instead. Totally different markets.

The whole Flamingo Crossings project (besides the hotels obviously) has been totally canned correct? I've read conflicting statements and really hope this thing is dead.

 

[PhotoDave219]

The whole Flamingo Crossings project (besides the hotels obviously) has been totally canned correct? I've read conflicting statements and really hope this thing is dead.

Nah. Just the tip.

 

[WDW1974]

Disney can do it... They did it with carsland and "much" of the dca v2... The problem is they don't do it consistently and dont seem to have great leadership to drive them to be the best possible each time. Too many bimbo attractions in the last 5 years and too much cheaping out prior to that.

Thats why my expectations are low... Who will be the big john forcing the dhs work to be as awesome as it can be?

It used to be zOMG disney is doing something!! Now we sit back and go 'hrmph... I wonder which disney will show up'

That's just a safety mechanism kicking in after so many years of disappointments.

Funny ... in from 1974 until Test Track (with the possible exception of recently departed Malestrom) Disney never added anything that I didn't enjoy or didn't flat out wow me. In the 21st century ... I don't know that WDW has come close to wowing me (maybe Everest at opening!)

 

[WDW1974]

Tom as in the future CEO?

That would be him.

 

[scout68]

You sir, have the gift of brevity...
*1023*

...if your into the whole brevity thing.

 

[Rodan75]

Nope. Has nothing to do with that. ... Besides, I try and drink at Territory Lounge or Mizner's before heading to MK because alcohol is one of the few things that can make the MK look good again!

MK looks great compared to a few years ago and nothing as bad as the late 80's. It's like you forget how horrible MK looked in the late 80's thru the tomorrowland 94 refreshes.

I would argue that MK looks better since Staggs and George took over than any time since at least 2007 maybe since 2000.

 

[WDW1974]

Honestly, why would you bother? Your fans would continue to be incredulous and claim the dated notes were Photoshopped.

You called the Hogwarts Express and the Potter expansion going into USF years before it opened (in addition to other stuff). Track record speaks for itself.

Nah. I lie. I make things up. And I hurt the feelings of fanbois (the Twits really can't take it ... but they read here, so MAGICal Steve can be happy as it's a best of both worlds deal), while disparaging top execs anonymously.

I do appreciate you recalling that. You likely also recall how I was called crazy and told that it would be overkill and that you couldn't build an attraction connecting the parks because there was 'infrastructure' between them etc.

The scary thing is I break more true news here than any one reporter that covers this business. And what do I get for it? Not a penny and loads of crap from strangers who don't have a clue but don't like my world and World views and my confidence (you can be confident when you do know what you are talking about).

I dunno ... maybe Phil Kippel can replace me here. He's closer to the typical fan than I'll ever be!

 

[PhotoDave219]

...if your into the whole brevity thing.

Perhaps.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I'm still waiting for the breakdowns to leak out....

... However this should be a primarily DHS event, assuming I'm understanding correctly. Anything else will be piecemeal.

The last I heard, Flamingo Crossing is dead beyond the two hotels being built there now. That could change but is unlikely, IMO.

DHS is the only park that needs the total overhaul. Epcot needs quite a bit and MK has it's dead spots as well, but as you said, those can be done piecemeal.

 

[misterID]

Nah. I lie. I make things up. And I hurt the feelings of fanbois (the Twits really can't take it ... but they read here, so MAGICal Steve can be happy as it's a best of both worlds deal).

I do appreciate you recalling that. You likely also recall how I was called crazy and told that it would be overkill and that you couldn't build an attraction connecting the parks because there was 'infrastructure' between them etc.

The scary thing is I break more true news here than any one reporter that cover this business. And what do I get for it? Not a penny and loads of crap from strangers who don't have a clue but don't like my world and World views and my confidence (you can be confident when you do know what you are talking about).

I dunno ... maybe Phil Kippel can replace me here. He's closer to the typical fan than I'll ever be!

I can remember a lot of talk of Sheriffs and the burgeoning jealousy when you were correct about certain things that has festered into the hateful (and unhealthy) obsession of everything spirit we have today... And I don't believe a lot of it is actually genuine. Some of it's contrived and I think a lot of it plays into an online identity or persona people take too seriously. But I still know how to wade through a spirit thread and find the good stuff.

 

[RSoxNo1]

ST2 is a ride re-skin. Even as a die hard Star Wars fan (the level of which is both awesome and embarrassing at times ;P) I didn't change plans to get to the park to see this.

An immersive themed area with multiple rides? I'll be there opening day and stay for 10 days no matter the time of year.

Star Tours 2.0 was also horribly marketed. It was only marketed in and around the resort. There were no advertisements anywhere else on the East Coast for the new attraction.

 

[PhotoDave219]

MK looks great compared to a few years ago and nothing as bad as the late 80's. It's like you forget how horrible MK looked in the late 80's thru the tomorrowland 94 refreshes.

I would argue that MK looks better since Staggs and George took over than any time since at least 2007 maybe since 2000.

Looking at the numbers? MK is getting hammered, as usual. Pulling peak level crowds 49 times this year, 28% of the time. Has an above average crowd 52% of the time. Hasnt had a slow day (off-peak levels) since May 17th.

 

[1023]

Star Tours 2.0 was also horribly marketed. It was only marketed in and around the resort. There were no advertisements anywhere else on the East Coast for the new attraction.

Again, California did it quite differently....

*1023*

 

[RSoxNo1]

im not saying IP doesn't matter but there are too many examples that prove IP is not as important as execution and commitment to the project
ie splash mtn, Tower of Terror

IP matters from a marketing standpoint. That's why it's important to Disney and Universal. It's easier to sell guests on the new area when they can wrap their head around an intellectual property they're familiar with. No matter how good a non-IP ride is or a ride around an IP they're not interested in, it's a much easier sell if they like the IP.

When a guest is there they'll appreciate the lesser IP/non IP ride, but the high demand IP gets them to book the trip.