Bob Chapek Confirms Disney Will Overhaul Epcot

[Sirwalterraleigh]

as a place for Cast Members to live? WDW has that now with College and International Program CM's, it's just much less organized.

I think the primary goals of the EPCOT City project were the city's layout and transportation options, plus the climate controlled downtown area. The rest I think people read too much into.

Vista can be utopian...

As long as you stay hydrated enough to replenish your fluids

 

[ChrisFL]

Agreed. Sure, certain elements of Walt's vision were beyond lofty, but I don't think the original idea for Epcot was "crackpot." Modern urban planning largely focuses on all sorts of mixed-use development and walkable communities, albeit at a (generally) smaller scale than Walt envisioned in Epcot. Infill and mixed-use is more sustainable. And the circular city is a classic city layout. The big issue with Walt's original vision for Epcot is that it asks people give up the level of personal individual freedom that we expect in America (e.g., no ownership of homes/land, minimal automobile use, etc.).

I don't think that was the case either. Lots of people rent houses and apartments with no ownership, and if you lived in one of the regular houses, you still owned your own car, you just drove it in and out of the city only, as there wasn't need to park inside the city anywhere.

Having said that, the one downside to this was the notion that the CM's living there would always be "on stage" and not have as much privacy as there would still be a lot of tourists visiting the city. Also, the idea where the houses would constantly be upgraded with new "beta" technology. I could see some downsides to that part if not implemented properly.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

If you're referring to HEA, that's a weak argument. Why wouldn't the Magic Kingdom nighttime spectacular be full of IP? It always has been. Let's not pretend Wishes or Fantasy In The Sky weren't IP extravaganzas either.....you just couldn't visually see it projected onto the castle. I think one of the reasons we are getting HEA 2.0 at Epcot is because of Rivers of Light's failure. They assume that a lack of IP was the problem when in fact, its not the lack of recognizable characters, its a lack of compelling storytelling....something extremely prominent in IllumiNations.

Not weak in the slightest.
Previous shows were music and fireworks based. The new one is lets slap IP all over the castle( but if we make more loud bangs no one will complain).

yes based on IP. But not pasted bang on the castle. After the HS shows HEA was a logical progression. And now ROE is the next obvious target. Don't pretend there is no correlation.


Oh and if i am that uninformed then you know where the ignore button is .

Yeah, the music from all those previous shows were IP based. So, you're argument is crap.

Let me help:

IP shows all inherently suck. It’s a ball of string for the intellectually challenged.


...you’re welcome

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Not into hate but everything else you say here makes sense.

Your country is awash in hate...depending on which country you live in

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

And I don't agree (shocker!). Fantasmic doesn't suck, Wishes didn't suck, SpectroMagic didn't suck, Paint the Night (despite the overuse of Pixar) doesn't suck, HEA doesn't suck. If we water down everything down with IP to sucking, there really is no point in WDW or any park for that matter having a show. I don't hear people saying the Indy Stunt Show sucks or Festival of the Lion King sucks. Its all about execution and the appropriateness of where said show is going.

Fantasmic has been overextended...it’s a one and done.

“Wishes” was perhaps the corniest nonsense ever...and that’s saying ALOT. “We must all believe in the power of our dreams...”

...a 3 year old shouldn’t fall for that.

...the overall point is that shows that are basically vhs preview reals for old movies and merch miss out on an opportunity to build a stronger bond specifically with the parks. The old guard would hate them...if I had to guess.

That’s just me.

 

[DreamfinderGuy]

At 14, you are pretty dang smart. Sat here and read that in its entirety and I could picture myself in your shoes.

You hit the nail right on the head. A lot of us feel the same way.

Thank you. Now if only Chapek could understand the significant impact of this Park, and what it meant to people. I might only be one person, but I'm sure there are others like me out there. The Epcot fanbase isn't just a bunch of people in their 30s and 40s reminiscing about their childhood, there's so much more to it. We don't just mourn the loss of attractions, but what they stood for.

 

[aliceismad]

I don't think that was the case either. Lots of people rent houses and apartments with no ownership, and if you lived in one of the regular houses, you still owned your own car, you just drove it in and out of the city only, as there wasn't need to park inside the city anywhere.

Having said that, the one downside to this was the notion that the CM's living there would always be "on stage" and not have as much privacy as there would still be a lot of tourists visiting the city. Also, the idea where the houses would constantly be upgraded with new "beta" technology. I could see some downsides to that part if not implemented properly.

Sure, lots of people in America today rent. (In many cases wisely so.) But land and the ownership of it is a critical element of the "American dream," and plenty of college classes still debate what a city would look like if, like Walt had envisioned, the entirety of the land was owned by a corporation which could then dictate changes as it saw fit. Which ties into your point about beta technology, of course.

 

[ChrisFL]

Sure, lots of people in America today rent. (In many cases wisely so.) But land and the ownership of it is a critical element of the "American dream," and plenty of college classes still debate what a city would look like if, like Walt had envisioned, the entirety of the land was owned by a corporation which could then dictate changes as it saw fit. Which ties into your point about beta technology, of course.

But the key is the "Experimental Prototype". This was the test bed, not that all cities were going to have the same governance requirements.

Also, varying levels of this kind of thing already exists even for homeowners, with homeowner associations (for better or worse).

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sure, lots of people in America today rent. (In many cases wisely so.) But land and the ownership of it is a critical element of the "American dream," and plenty of college classes still debate what a city would look like if, like Walt had envisioned, the entirety of the land was owned by a corporation which could then dictate changes as it saw fit. Which ties into your point about beta technology, of course.

https://www.irvinecompany.com

 

[aliceismad]

Also, varying levels of this kind of thing already exists even for homeowners, with homeowner associations (for better or worse).

True on both accounts. But one of the things I hear most about HOAs is that people dislike others governing what they can do with their own home/land. I don't know whether Walt envisioned a committee of community members, like an HOA board or tenant board. I just know that both HOA meetings and city land use meetings are often like walking into minefields.

 

[Missing20K]

Even the layout and transportation was not a new idea. There really isn't much in EPCOT that was all that radical or has not been done somewhere.

Cribbed from Garden Cities of Tomorrow. Almost down to the name, swapping "Garden" for "Experimental Prototype". The ideas had been around for decades and many examples of "Garden communities" had already existed.

Agreed. Sure, certain elements of Walt's vision were beyond lofty, but I don't think the original idea for Epcot was "crackpot." Modern urban planning largely focuses on all sorts of mixed-use development and walkable communities, albeit at a (generally) smaller scale than Walt envisioned in Epcot. Infill and mixed-use is more sustainable. And the circular city is a classic city layout. The big issue with Walt's original vision for Epcot is that it asks people give up the level of personal individual freedom that we expect in America (e.g., no ownership of homes/land, minimal automobile use, etc.).

In a free, capitalist society, I would call banning retirees and those unable to work due to disability pretty "crackpot" and there were plenty of ideas about how inhabitants were to "live" day to day that coincidentally or not, meshed well with ideas of 1950's-60's corporate "stewardship" of society. Like an Ayn Rand-lite. Garden Cities of Tomorrow has much about how cities should not just be physically organized, but also how the society inhabiting said city should be organized.

Also, Garden Cities of Tomorrow and E.P.C.O.T. were explicitly not mixed-use, as the centers were dedicated to industry, service, and corporate uses, followed by a green belt of parks and recreation, followed by housing, moving from high density to medium to lower density, single family home "garden communities" in EPCOT's case OR a total reversal of this, with parks and green space at the center, housing, then industry/factories, sometimes with green space between the factories and housing in Garden's case.

I don't think that was the case either. Lots of people rent houses and apartments with no ownership, and if you lived in one of the regular houses, you still owned your own car, you just drove it in and out of the city only, as there wasn't need to park inside the city anywhere.

But the key is the "Experimental Prototype". This was the test bed, not that all cities were going to have the same governance requirements.

Also, varying levels of this kind of thing already exists even for homeowners, with homeowner associations (for better or worse).

I find renting a home from a "public" entity that is owned by a corporation slightly different than renting a house from a private owner. And there would not have been any HOA. RCID inhabitants explicitly give up voting rights on municipal matters. Good luck finding anyone without pixie dust on their brain or their paycheck signed by Walt himself signing up for that. Maybe it was only a prototype and adjustments would have been made, but I'm in the corner that it would have never been built as publicly shown.

I am of the belief that E.P.C.O.T. was a ruse in order to acquire the rights to agglomerate the individual parcels of land into a district in which the corporation had complete control. At most, they would have built a small, prototype city, ala Celebration, to fulfill any requirements of a "city" being part of the RCID agreement, which it conveniently was not, go figure.

Apologies for length of post.

John Raley
Executive Correspondence Specialist
Walt Disney World Resort

That is fancy sounding. I wonder if it all fits on the name tag?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Cribbed from Garden Cities of Tomorrow. Almost down to the name, swapping "Garden" for "Experimental Prototype". The ideas had been around for decades and many examples of "Garden communities" had already existed.

More specifically, EPCOT copies from Victor Gruen's The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure. Dave Smith even catalogued a copy in Walt's office at the time of his passing. Gruen updates Howard's layout for mid-century technology, notably by adding the below grade service corridors and the enclosed, air conditioned city center.

I am of the belief that E.P.C.O.T. was a ruse in order to acquire the rights to agglomerate the individual parcels of land into a district in which the corporation had complete control. At most, they would have built a small, prototype city, ala Celebration, to fulfill any requirements of a "city" being part of the RCID agreement, which it conveniently was not, go figure.

All of the evidence points to Walt being as focused on EPCOT as he was on other past passions like Disneyland and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

 

[aliceismad]

In a free, capitalist society, I would call banning retirees and those unable to work due to disability pretty "crackpot" and there were plenty of ideas about how inhabitants were to "live" day to day that coincidentally or not, meshed well with ideas of 1950's-60's corporate "stewardship" of society. Like an Ayn Rand-lite. Garden Cities of Tomorrow has much about how cities should not just be physically organized, but also how the society inhabiting said city should be organized.

Also, Garden Cities of Tomorrow and E.P.C.O.T. were explicitly not mixed-use, as the centers were dedicated to industry, service, and corporate uses, followed by a green belt of parks and recreation, followed by housing, moving from high density to medium to lower density, single family home "garden communities" in EPCOT's case OR a total reversal of this, with parks and green space at the center, housing, then industry/factories, sometimes with green space between the factories and housing in Garden's case.

Maybe this is the rose-colored glasses and I am incorrect, but I understood the utopian vision to be that if every person had a "job," they would have a role to fulfill within the community, and that's why retirees were not to be allowed, in the conventional sense. A "job" may not specifically mean a labor category but a role that benefits society. I found this idea more a theoretical "if everyone feels responsible for the community, everyone will uphold the community" but certainly it could be interpreted too as a darker road where the elderly and disabled are not welcome. Certainly it has an Ayn Rand note to it.

I found your post quite fascinating, as well as the others on this topic, and would like to look in to Garden Cities as well as the notion of Epcot as a whole. So thank you for your time. ChrisFL too.

 

[MisterPenguin]

More specifically, EPCOT copies from Victor Gruen's The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure. Dave Smith even catalogued a copy in Walt's office at the time of his passing. Gruen updates Howard's layout for mid-century technology, notably by adding the below grade service corridors and the enclosed, air conditioned city center.

Howard? Is that Howard Stark?

 

[Missing20K]

More specifically, EPCOT copies from Victor Gruen's The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure. Dave Smith even catalogued a copy in Walt's office at the time of his passing. Gruen updates Howard's layout for mid-century technology, notably by adding the below grade service corridors and the enclosed, air conditioned city center.


All of the evidence points to Walt being as focused on EPCOT as he was on other past passions like Disneyland and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

Gruen was a monster. Awesome work he did.

Evidence aside (of which I admit I'm not fully aware, my knowledge of Disney is still pretty amatuerish compared to you and the other heavyweights here. I need to brush up when I find time), the plan was so audacious I think that even they knew they couldn't get the entire city built as planned. Unless they were somehow planning Chandigarh, Orlando.

Maybe this is the rose-colored glasses and I am incorrect, but I understood the utopian vision to be that if every person had a "job," they would have a role to fulfill within the community, and that's why retirees were not to be allowed, in the conventional sense. A "job" may not specifically mean a labor category but a role that benefits society. I found this idea more a theoretical "if everyone feels responsible for the community, everyone will uphold the community" but certainly it could be interpreted too as a darker road where the elderly and disabled are not welcome. Certainly it has an Ayn Rand note to it.

I found your post quite fascinating, as well as the others on this topic, and would like to look in to Garden Cities as well as the notion of Epcot as a whole. So thank you for your time. ChrisFL too.

True, it may have been "jobs" as you describe. Would definitely make a more wholesome, well-rounded community to have all ages represented.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Maybe this is the rose-colored glasses and I am incorrect, but I understood the utopian vision to be that if every person had a "job," they would have a role to fulfill within the community, and that's why retirees were not to be allowed, in the conventional sense. A "job" may not specifically mean a labor category but a role that benefits society. I found this idea more a theoretical "if everyone feels responsible for the community, everyone will uphold the community" but certainly it could be interpreted too as a darker road where the elderly and disabled are not welcome. Certainly it has an Ayn Rand note to it.

I found your post quite fascinating, as well as the others on this topic, and would like to look in to Garden Cities as well as the notion of Epcot as a whole. So thank you for your time. ChrisFL too.

I think he meant an actual job, but these would not have just been jobs for Disney like the young adults in the College Program and International Program who live in Disney housing. Disney World was to include a number of business partners who would have had offices in EPCOT or at the Industrial Park.

Recommended reading list (in this order):

1. Garden Cities of To-Morrow by Ebenezer Howard
2. The City of Tomorrow and Its Planning by Le Corbusier
3. The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure By Victor Gruen
4. Walt Disney and the Quest for Community by Steve Mannheim (above are referenced)

Bonus: Project Future: The Inside Story Behind the Creation of Disney World by Chad Emerson (if interested in the legal framework behind the Reedy Creek Improvement District)

 

[Missing20K]

More specifically, EPCOT copies from Victor Gruen's The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure. Dave Smith even catalogued a copy in Walt's office at the time of his passing. Gruen updates Howard's layout for mid-century technology, notably by adding the below grade service corridors and the enclosed, air conditioned city center.

You know, I never thought about it until now, but it's quite ironic that the father of the suburban mall influenced the man who influenced a theme park that is turning into a pseudo-suburban mall.

 

[Missing20K]

I think he meant an actual job, but these would not have just been jobs for Disney like the young adults in the College Program and International Program who live in Disney housing. Disney World was to include a number of business partners who would have had offices in EPCOT or at the Industrial Park.

Recommended reading list (in this order):

1. Garden Cities of To-Morrow by Ebenezer Howard
2. The City of Tomorrow and Its Planning by Le Corbusier
3. The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure By Victor Gruen
4. Walt Disney and the Quest for Community by Steve Mannheim

Bonus: Project Future: The Inside Story Behind the Creation of Disney World by Chad Emerson (if interested in the legal framework behind the Reedy Creek Improvement District)

If I may add to the list:

The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs
The Image of the City by Kevin Lynch

 

[aliceismad]

I think he meant an actual job, but these would not have just been jobs for Disney like the young adults in the College Program and International Program who live in Disney housing. Disney World was to include a number of business partners who would have had offices in EPCOT or at the Industrial Park.

Recommended reading list (in this order):

1. Garden Cities of To-Morrow by Ebenezer Howard
2. The City of Tomorrow and Its Planning by Le Corbusier
3. The Heart of Our Cities: The Urban Crisis: Diagnosis and Cure By Victor Gruen
4. Walt Disney and the Quest for Community by Steve Mannheim (above are referenced)

Bonus: Project Future: The Inside Story Behind the Creation of Disney World by Chad Emerson (if interested in the legal framework behind the Reedy Creek Improvement District)

Thank you!

 

[lazyboy97o]

If I may add to the list:

The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs
The Image of the City by Kevin Lynch

I did not include those since they would be more counter-EPCOT. Jane seemed to be all about the "messy vitality" to which the "architecture of reassurance" is opposed. Lynch though translates well to the organization of theme parks.