Bob Chapek Confirms Disney Will Overhaul Epcot

[mikejs78]

But why gut several omnimovers for thrill rides? Horizons and World of Motion could still easily work today and we could also have a Space pavilion and Test Track. We shouldn't have lost rides for quick thrills. We should have expanded. The park would be in a whole lot better shape for many reasons.

This. I love TT, Space, and Soarin, but imagine if they had been additions instead of replacements.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic post or not. There is a difference between updating a ride and having to rebuild an entire park because it's core premise doesn't work after 15 years.

It’s minimal sarcasm - 50% for me.

I just snarfed at your impassioned “when will it be enough?!?” Plea.

The obvious truth is Never. That is the basic business they are in.

In a way...it heightens the problem with Epcot since day one - not really grasping the crushing requirements to maintain it.

But they built it...they own it...they have more money than Jesus.
Not complicated here.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Epcot didn't have to be rebuilt every 15 years. Most of the attractions would have been fine with updates. The problem is they let them stagnate/closed a bunch, and now they put themselves in the position of having to rebuild the park.

DHS is also being rebuilt. Does that mean that it's premise of a theme park about movies isn't sustainable? Universal had to be "rebuilt" as well.

I think we all look at MK/Disneyland as the model, when really they're the exception. Theme parks need to be rebuilt fairly frequently, constantly updated, upgraded, etc to stay relevant. The castle parks are the exception, not the rule, because they tapped into something timeless that can't easily be replicated. And even MK could use some significant love....

It's not the premise of Epcot that has caused them to have to rebuild the park. It's their mismanagement over the years.

This is your most insightful post ever.

 

[Indy_UK]

yep
yyyyeeeeeppppp


Nope...additions are needed desperately - but this was coming to a head for a decade. Ratatouille is a clone...not a “fantastic idea”. They’re lucky that they can plug it right in, but no creative juice was expended to do so.

I like the space restaurant idea - I’m just shocked they are doing it. But I’ll take it.

Guardians doesn’t fit and never will...it’s simply doing the “stuff” thing on a misguided course to balance that I talked about earlier.

And all that - while “something” - doesn’t address the elephant: dilapidated or mothballed/defunct pavilion space that should and certainly can be done first. Nothing stopping then from doing something in innoventions, wol, and imagination...except they don’t want to pay for it.

Boo hoo. I weep for the stockholders and the $0.04 reduction in their dividend.
It will NEVER fix itself...mismanagement has to be corrected. Period. They are puttting some impressive lipstick on...but once that’s open the flaws will be even more apparent.

With Ratatouile I agree, they have got lucky with it but it is still a good addition that makes use of existing space. Cheaper on their wallets too.

What I think they're plan is to get the stuff open that they've announced for the 50th. Past that they will close and re-imagine a pavilion at a time which is much easier for them to do than what pains Hollywood studios had.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

Modern-day DCA is a great park. It has short comings still, but myself and my family continue to have a much better time at DCA vs DL.

2018 DCA does have some good qualities yes. We tend to eat dinner there vs. DL on quite a few trips. But if I had to choose between it and Epcot, I wouldn't hesitate.

 

[lazyboy97o]

DHS is also being rebuilt. Does that mean that it's premise of a theme park about movies isn't sustainable? Universal had to be "rebuilt" as well.

This whole notion of more popular and longer lasting really does lack actual support beyond being the only thing currently offered. Disney’s Hollywood Studios has no opening day attractions left. Universal Studios Florida has what, one original attraction left? Islands of Adventure has a bit more but people also love to dream about huge chunks of that park being ripped up or redone.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Nothing is going to change between now and at least 2022. Iger has a $100 million "equity grant" waiting for him in 2021 (well, $75 million, he's already been given $25 million of it) if Disney's total shareholder return outperforms 66% of the S&P 500. That means more focus on short-term profits, so likely more cuts, even bigger price hikes, more up-charges, and more of the short-term, only-profits-matter-motivated thinking that has endeared Mr. Iger (and now Mr. Chapek) to so many theme park fans thus far as Eisner's replacement. And that's what he's turned out to be - meet the new boss, same as the old boss (but worse). If Chappie helps get Iger his $100 million, expect him to be installed as the next CEO. And the cycle will continue...

 

[brb1006]

That really stuck out to me when I first came back in 2016, I saw Goofy walking by in Hollywood Studios and had a camera handy and asked for a quick pic but a handler made sure he continued on without breaking stride. At first I figured he must be time-pressed to get somewhere, but then started to notice that no characters (other than an occasional Country Bear) we’re stopping or interacting anywhere other than designated spots with handlers and roped out lines.

I get the benefit of having an orderly process and making it easier for the Photopass photographers. But it just takes the spontaneity out of it when you are just repeating the same process: a candid picture as you walk up the character, a picture hugging the character, and a picture or two standing next to them smiling at the camera. Next, repeat. Next, repeat.

My one indoor meet and greet I’ve done was Mickey, Minnie, & Goofy at Epcot because a fastpass popped up so I figured it wouldn’t take longer than 10-15 minutes. Wrong! It was roughly 45 minutes in the fastpass line, I know I was a lot less excited by that time and can only imagine how long the standard line waited.

What’s more magical for a kid: a) lots of characters walking around the park and some excitement over what characters you might see, when, and where and probably having some more interesting interactions, or b) go wait in line for an hour, have the same interaction and get 3-4 pictures in front of a backdrop that capture you doing the same things with each character in essentially the same way down an assembly line of characters.

RetroWDW has good footage of a few of the character walking around shot during the 70's.

This video shows Mickey walking around the park with an umbrella shot in 1972 which can be seen at 5:00 minute mark.


Another video shot in the 1970's shows Mickey meeting guests and later meets a couple near the entrance. This moment starts at the 6:13 mark. Other characters also show up in this video.


The only Disney Parks that still allow Disney characters to wander would be at Disneyland and Tokyo Disney Resort due to both being located in a local area. The only notable characters that are walk-around would be the characters from Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Aladdin, Pinocchio, occasional Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, and recently Gaston.

As a result, only in Disneyland can you get moments like these. Some of the characters are able to ride with guests if they're lucky.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

With Ratatouile I agree, they have got lucky with it but it is still a good addition that makes use of existing space. Cheaper on their wallets too.

What I think they're plan is to get the stuff open that they've announced for the 50th. Past that they will close and re-imagine a pavilion at a time which is much easier for them to do than what pains Hollywood studios had.

I don’t think the “50th” means a damn thing..

You want to fill your already full parks and hotel rooms? How’s that work?

And the management is gonna he long gone before any “reimagining” of Epcot is coming... which makes it a unicorn

 

[disney1023]

RetroWDW has good footage of a few of the character walking around shot during the 70's.

This video shows Mickey walking around the park with an umbrella shot in 1972 which can be seen at 5:00 minute mark.


Another video shot in the 1970's shows Mickey meeting guests and later meets a couple near the entrance. This moment starts at the 6:13 mark. Other characters also show up in this video.


The only Disney Parks that still allow Disney characters to wander would be at Disneyland and Tokyo Disney Resort due to both being located in a local area. The only notable characters that are walk-around would be the characters from Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Aladdin, Pinocchio, occasional Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, and recently Gaston.

As a result, only in Disneyland can you get moments like these. Some of the characters are able to ride with guests if they're lucky.

I saw Peter Pan roaming freely in the Magic Kingdom one morning just a few days ago, and the park also has 2-4 Country Bears roaming outside the attraction and across the Fronteirland/Liberty Square walkway

 

[HauntedPirate]

Since my latest trip back to Disneyland, I've had a resurgence in my interest in Walt Disney. I just got done watching his EPCOT film that was recorded shortly before his death, and I kept thinking that it's sad that his ideas never really came to be. Sure, some of them were realized in EPCOT Center the park, and others were just too unrealistic, but seeing what is happening to EPCOT right now is extremely sad. With EPCOT Center, at least Walt's original vision was somewhat honored, but with current EPCOT, it's as if Walt's vision never mattered at all. I wish current leadership understood the significance of that special park, and treated it with dignity. I don't think I've ever been so upset about the state of the corpse of EPCOT Center.

Current "leadership" has no idea who or what you're talking about. They do know about how to increase quarterly profits, though, which is all that matters to them anymore.

 

[Demarke]

I think a mix of both can work well. When we went to see Mickey a couple of weeks back, the FastPass line experience was much like yours, however the semi-private nature of the Meet-n-Greet allowed for more personal interaction with the character. Directly in front of us was a family with a severely autistic child. He was non-verbal, obviously tired, and his parents were dealing with his outbursts as best they could. When it came to be his time to meet Mickey, both the handler and Mickey showed that they had been well-trained how to handle kids with special needs. As soon as Mickey came over to the child, you could see him connect. The child calmed down and gave Mickey a gentle kiss on his nose. Mickey got down on the floor with him and then took him around to look at and touch the various props on display. You could tell that there was a definite moment of connection between the two that meant something to both the child and his family. There's no way that kind of moment can happen with a spontaneous character appearance.

On the other hand, I saw grown adults' faces light up when one of the Country Bears appeared at rope drop to help walk the crowds back to Frontierland and when Alice showed up outside the Tea Cups. What is needed is balance. Right now, there are too many structured character spots and not enough spontaneous ones. Every time I walked past Princess Fairytale Hall, or whatever they call it, I got depressed thinking about the wonderful Snow White ride that used to be there. It seems like every area in all of the parks now have designated greeting areas with long lines everywhere you look. I can't imagine having a small child who would want to stop and wait in line to meet every character. That would take up your whole day. My memories of running into characters in the MK when I was a child are so strong because they were surprises. All it took was a quick handshake or hug and that memory was seared into my mind for life.

TL/DR: I can understand the benefits of having structured Meet-n-Greets for the "big" characters as they allow for more intimate interaction, but Disney has gone overboard with them to the detriment of the overall character-meeting experience. Being realistic, the structured Meet-n-Greets are there to sell PhotoPass pics.

I'm on board with you, a mix would be great. Although I prefer being able to see them walk around the park (that gives some benefit even to people who have no intention of stopping and snapping a picture or anything with them), I have nothing against the basic idea of a meet and greet. It just feels like a gut punch when they remove a ride or some other exhibit or attraction and replace it with a glorified portrait studio. They could set up meet and greets outside (they do it all the time in the MK entrance with Chip and Dale, Pluto, and others), or build a cheap building with a fun facade somewhere in free space and have the meet and greet be an addition or enhancement, but a replacement just feels like it cheapens the deal. I just can't understand how they close down an attraction or much less a ride for this when it could easily be incorporated elsewhere. Why replace something when you could augment with the meet and greets? (I know, I know, because they are cheaper than keeping the attraction open!)

I think the outdoor ones seem to work fine (such as Pluto in front of MK, or Buzz Lightyear at HS), the roaming characters at restaurants seems to work fine (like Royal Table, Garden Grille, etc), the optional controlled meet and greet works at places too (like Royal Table, Be Our Guest dinner, etc). These are all fun experiences for those that are into it and do not remove or replace a building outfitted to hold a ride, attraction, or interactive exhibit area (like Stitch/Alien Encounter, half of Communicore/Innoventions, Snow White's Scary Adventure, etc).

 

[BrianLo]

Since my latest trip back to Disneyland, I've had a resurgence in my interest in Walt Disney. I just got done watching his EPCOT film that was recorded shortly before his death, and I kept thinking that it's sad that his ideas never really came to be. Sure, some of them were realized in EPCOT Center the park, and others were just too unrealistic, but seeing what is happening to EPCOT right now is extremely sad. With EPCOT Center, at least Walt's original vision was somewhat honored, but with current EPCOT, it's as if Walt's vision never mattered at all. I wish current leadership understood the significance of that special park, and treated it with dignity. I don't think I've ever been so upset about the state of the corpse of EPCOT Center.

There is no bigger decision that betrayed Walt than building Epcot Center. Full stop. Just because it has nods or Easter eggs does not mean turning his community vision into a theme park was not aggressively counter to his plans.

I also think Walt’s vision would have sunk the company and Epcot Center was wonderful. But we really need to drop the company marketing bull that what was built was ‘for Walt’. Yes modern Epcot is even further away from that point, but I think it’s totally hypocritical to talk about Walt.

Card Walker and the imagineers at the time deserve the credit for editing/completely changing Walt’s idea into a very functional theme park resort.

 

[geekza]

There is no bigger decision that betrayed Walt than building Epcot Center. Full stop. Just because it has nods or Easter eggs does not mean turning his community vision into a theme park was not aggressively counter to his plans.

I also think Walt’s vision would have sunk the company and Epcot Center was wonderful. But we really need to drop the company marketing bull that what was built was ‘for Walt’. Yes modern Epcot is even further away from that point, but I think it’s totally hypocritical to talk about Walt.

Card Walker and the imagineers at the time deserve the credit for editing/completely changing Walt’s idea into a very functional theme park resort.

I don't know if it would have sunk the company. The fact is that EPCOT, the actual city, was still in the very early stages of planning when Walt died. If you look at the initial plans for what became Disneyland compared to the final park, the two are very, very different. Remember that Walt was never one for pushing things out before he felt they were ready. Heck the facade for the Haunted Mansion was completed at Disneyland for years before the ride finally opened. I don't know the modern process, but back then, you had a central idea and then it was designed and redesigned over and over in order to solve as many issues as possible and to make the final product as perfect as possible. Walt was also not one to stick with something if it became clear that it was simply not going to be feasible. It's impossible to say whether or not EPCOT, the city, would have been completed had Walt lived another decade or two, simply because society and the world economy changed so much during that time period. The remainder of the company simply decided to scrap it immediately, since it was so early in the process and they no longer had Walt to oversee the project. I don't blame them. I wish that there was some alternate reality where we could see what would have happened, but sadly, that wasn't to be.

From what I've gathered in my reading, the company didn't want to admit right away that they weren't going to build EPCOT, the city, since so much of the cooperation they received from Florida and its industries had been predicated on what had been presented to them by Walt. Once they got the MK up and running and it was a humongous success, whenever they were asked about EPCOT, they would say that it was still on the table. They thought that people would eventually forget about it. They didn't, which is why the second park was called EPCOT Center and was touted at the time as part of the eventual EPCOT city. It was only a couple of years later that the Eisner regime came in and EPCOT, the city, officially died once and for all. Future World was very much tied to Walt's original ideas, since it was predicated on being a showplace for emerging technologies that would impact our lives. Mixed in with this were history lessons about man's progress in relation to each of the topics covered in Future World pavilions. The only minor exception was Imagination, which was still driven by the idea that nothing is created without first using your imagination. It still tied in to the central theme of EPCOT Center.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying that EPCOT Center wasn't a slap in the face to Walt's dream. It was a way of honoring his dream and his enthusiasm for futurism, whilst taking into account the reality that, without Walt, they wouldn't have been able to even think of pulling off such a massive idea as EPCOT, the city. To be fair, WDW did accomplish many of the ideas that came out of the EPCOT project, including the way it is governed, its development of alternative transportation systems, the development of alternative fuels, the way waste is handled, controlling systems via computer from centralized locations, etc. It has strayed away from some of those as the decades have passed, but only because of the change in focus at the top and the departure of "Walt's people" from positions of power and influence.

Eisner did try his hand at building a planned community, Celebration, but it wasn't successful. Why? He wasn't Walt, though he desperately wanted to be. They didn't take into account many of the issues that popped up with controlling an entire town. Now, Walt would have faced these issues as well and may well have also failed, but we'll never know.

 

[mikejs78]

I'm on board with you, a mix would be great. Although I prefer being able to see them walk around the park (that gives some benefit even to people who have no intention of stopping and snapping a picture or anything with them), I have nothing against the basic idea of a meet and greet. It just feels like a gut punch when they remove a ride or some other exhibit or attraction and replace it with a glorified portrait studio. They could set up meet and greets outside (they do it all the time in the MK entrance with Chip and Dale, Pluto, and others), or build a cheap building with a fun facade somewhere in free space and have the meet and greet be an addition or enhancement, but a replacement just feels like it cheapens the deal. I just can't understand how they close down an attraction or much less a ride for this when it could easily be incorporated elsewhere. Why replace something when you could augment with the meet and greets? (I know, I know, because they are cheaper than keeping the attraction open!)

I think the outdoor ones seem to work fine (such as Pluto in front of MK, or Buzz Lightyear at HS), the roaming characters at restaurants seems to work fine (like Royal Table, Garden Grille, etc), the optional controlled meet and greet works at places too (like Royal Table, Be Our Guest dinner, etc). These are all fun experiences for those that are into it and do not remove or replace a building outfitted to hold a ride, attraction, or interactive exhibit area (like Stitch/Alien Encounter, half of Communicore/Innoventions, Snow White's Scary Adventure, etc).

• Fantasyland would be better off if they built a new Princess Fairytale Hall and made the current one a new dark ride
• Epcot would be better off if they moved the M&Gs to the Oddessy or constructed something new, and revitalized Communicore/Innoventions.
• Stitch is better off being a M&G than the old ride. That ride was just *awful*. That being said, if the M&G is just a placeholder until a new ride is completed within a year or two, that's a fine scenario IMO. If it becomes more permanent, it's not a great thing.

There is no bigger decision that betrayed Walt than building Epcot Center. Full stop. Just because it has nods or Easter eggs does not mean turning his community vision into a theme park was not aggressively counter to his plans.

I also think Walt’s vision would have sunk the company and Epcot Center was wonderful. But we really need to drop the company marketing bull that what was built was ‘for Walt’. Yes modern Epcot is even further away from that point, but I think it’s totally hypocritical to talk about Walt.

Card Walker and the imagineers at the time deserve the credit for editing/completely changing Walt’s idea into a very functional theme park resort.

E.P.C.O.T could not have happened without Walt. It may not even have worked with Walt, but it certainly would have failed and bankrupted the company without him. EPCOT Center was a way of honoring Walt's vision and legacy without destroying the company.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

• Fantasyland would be better off if they built a new Princess Fairytale Hall and made the current one a new dark ride
• Epcot would be better off if they moved the M&Gs to the Oddessy or constructed something new, and revitalized Communicore/Innoventions.
• Stitch is better off being a M&G than the old ride. That ride was just *awful*. That being said, if the M&G is just a placeholder until a new ride is completed within a year or two, that's a fine scenario IMO. If it becomes more permanent, it's not a great thing.

E.P.C.O.T could not have happened without Walt. It may not even have worked with Walt, but it certainly would have failed and bankrupted the company without him. EPCOT Center was a way of honoring Walt's vision and legacy without destroying the company.

Meet and greets should be going to WoL.

 

[mikejs78]

Meet and greets should be going to WoL.

WoL is attraction space. It should have an attraction or two.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I don't know if it would have sunk the company. The fact is that EPCOT, the actual city, was still in the very early stages of planning when Walt died. If you look at the initial plans for what became Disneyland compared to the final park, the two are very, very different. Remember that Walt was never one for pushing things out before he felt they were ready. Heck the facade for the Haunted Mansion was completed at Disneyland for years before the ride finally opened. I don't know the modern process, but back then, you had a central idea and then it was designed and redesigned over and over in order to solve as many issues as possible and to make the final product as perfect as possible. Walt was also not one to stick with something if it became clear that it was simply not going to be feasible. It's impossible to say whether or not EPCOT, the city, would have been completed had Walt lived another decade or two, simply because society and the world economy changed so much during that time period. The remainder of the company simply decided to scrap it immediately, since it was so early in the process and they no longer had Walt to oversee the project. I don't blame them. I wish that there was some alternate reality where we could see what would have happened, but sadly, that wasn't to be.

From what I've gathered in my reading, the company didn't want to admit right away that they weren't going to build EPCOT, the city, since so much of the cooperation they received from Florida and its industries had been predicated on what had been presented to them by Walt. Once they got the MK up and running and it was a humongous success, whenever they were asked about EPCOT, they would say that it was still on the table. They thought that people would eventually forget about it. They didn't, which is why the second park was called EPCOT Center and was touted at the time as part of the eventual EPCOT city. It was only a couple of years later that the Eisner regime came in and EPCOT, the city, officially died once and for all. Future World was very much tied to Walt's original ideas, since it was predicated on being a showplace for emerging technologies that would impact our lives. Mixed in with this were history lessons about man's progress in relation to each of the topics covered in Future World pavilions. The only minor exception was Imagination, which was still driven by the idea that nothing is created without first using your imagination. It still tied in to the central theme of EPCOT Center.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying that EPCOT Center wasn't a slap in the face to Walt's dream. It was a way of honoring his dream and his enthusiasm for futurism, whilst taking into account the reality that, without Walt, they wouldn't have been able to even think of pulling off such a massive idea as EPCOT, the city. To be fair, WDW did accomplish many of the ideas that came out of the EPCOT project, including the way it is governed, its development of alternative transportation systems, the development of alternative fuels, the way waste is handled, controlling systems via computer from centralized locations, etc. It has strayed away from some of those as the decades have passed, but only because of the change in focus at the top and the departure of "Walt's people" from positions of power and influence.

Eisner did try his hand at building a planned community, Celebration, but it wasn't successful. Why? He wasn't Walt, though he desperately wanted to be. They didn't take into account many of the issues that popped up with controlling an entire town. Now, Walt would have faced these issues as well and may well have also failed, but we'll never know.

As one of the Imagineers pointed out, EPCOT, as stated, was impossible. As soon as people moved in, the E and P are gone. As he stated, you simply could not experiment with people's lives with prototypes. What if it didn't work? Suppose the kitchen of tomorrow was a failure and broke down all the time like the garbage disposal system at MK/Contemporary. What if the transport systems didn't turn out to be as efficient IRL? Imagineers quickly realized the very very blue sky concept in the movie was unworkable. The idea shifted then to a "EPCOT guide" in which experimental ideas could be utilized in a real world setting without impacting residents or guests. Originally EPCOT was to feature the Future World Theme Center which would show ideas and prototypes. This eventually was combined with World Showcase to create EPCOT Center. (AS a side note, you learned quickly never ever mention that painting to John Hench)

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

WoL is attraction space. It should have an attraction or two.

It should have - Yes. Will it - ???? Stay tuned.

 

[marni1971]

It should have - Yes. Will it - ???? Stay tuned.

Depends on your definition of an attraction.

No solid news yet.