Bob Chapek Confirms Disney Will Overhaul Epcot

[trainplane3]

About the topic and meet and greets VS the roaming characters complete with pictures taken. The days of roaming characters at the park really added more life and fun to the park experience during the 1970's and 1980's. You never know which character you might encounter while you're either heading to another attraction or waiting in line. Plus it gave characters a bigger opportunity to interact and have fun with guests compared to now where you have only a few seconds to interact and then leave M&G line.

You honestly have no idea how happy I was to catch Peter Pan grabbing kids to take them to "Neverland" in MK around noon on a normal operation day (no parties that night) during my fall trip. I also saw a couple other character out and about the next time I was there (I think Alice, the Mad Hatter, and someone else I forgot). They were actually roaming around and having fun.

The robot-suit and non-robot-suit guy(s) in Pandora are a personal favorite as well.

 

[dieboy]

Two things play into this which isn't obvious at first glance:

1. Those attractions had ridiculously high capacity compared to modern attractions. Horizons was 2784 people per hour, WoM was 3240 people per hour, Imagination 2576 people per hour. Or, to put it another way - Test Track has an hourly capacity of 1200, or 37% that of WoM (WoM had 2.7 times the capacity of TT). To illustrate that difference: let's say there is no wait at WoM, but enough people are coming to the attraction in a constant stream to fully load it. That would equate to a ~102 minute wait that would build up at Test Track over the course of an hour, assuming people arrived at TT at the same rate. So to say that there were no lines back then but there are today doesn't necessarily mean a lot. WoM could have no line and still be more popular than TT with a 70 min wait.
2. There was a lot more to do at Epcot back then. First, most attractions were lengthy. So you'd spend a great deal of time in the attraction and not moving on to the next one. Plus, the post shows were actually fun and engaging. You could easily spend an hour in a pavillion, longer in ones that had multiple attractions like The Land and WoL. Add in Communicore/Innoventions, and Future World could easily consume an entire day.

Pretty much. The math says it all.
Also I want to note, when we frequented in the mid 80s, i do remember being very engaged in each 'country' than present day. A balancing street act in france and a flag act in italy, meh .. I remember it was so much more engaging .. sad.

 

[HMF]

...not really.

The main difference between the two is that Epcot was actually amazing from the start and around 10-15 years later, things started slipping.
DCA was just a rubbish pile from the get-go and only saw some minor improvements 10-15 years later.

Personally, I'd go to current-day Epcot 100x over vs. DCA.

Never mind they were on the road to fixing DCA and then decided to break it again.

 

[celluloid]

...not really.

The main difference between the two is that Epcot was actually amazing from the start and around 10-15 years later, things started slipping.
DCA was just a rubbish pile from the get-go and only saw some minor improvements 10-15 years later.

Personally, I'd go to current-day Epcot 100x over vs. DCA.

No argument there. I meant with the fix a problem strategy that Iger has. Ignore ignore and then have to invest a bunch of flash in the pans.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

^The majority of the modern audience doesn't care about this stuff. Took me a while to accept it, but I have. Disney is going to cater/pander to these people, not us. Adjust expectations accordingly.

I agree that most people don't care about it consciously, and certainly not the way us folks do on this site, but I do think that unconsciously people sense when they're getting something great and when they're not.

Like I said before, the park has never performed as well as it did in the late 80's when there were a ton of big exciting things to do there.

Ask the modern audience what they want and I doubt if any of them will tell you they want an EPCOT Center. But then, if you asked them that in the 70's we would never have gotten one in the first place.

That's part of the greatness of what the early Imagineers achieved in the first few decades of the parks -- they served the guests a great meal without really taking their order. Who would have wanted a Disneyland before anyone knew what that was? Who would have walked past Holiday Hill and wished it was a Bobsled Ride? EPCOT Center managed the same trick, but was let to falter in its second decade and never fully recovered. They chose not to be persistent with the park's vision, but the vision was fine. If World of Motion and Horizons would be hokey to a 2018 audience, it would be nothing a good loving refurb couldn't fix.

I'm not saying the park needs to go back to being what it used to be (not that I wouldn't love it personally), nor do I have any expectation that they will . . . but I think the answers to fixing the problems Epcot is having now can be found looking in that direction rather than completely away from it, as they seem to be electing. I think they would do much better by creating a cohesive, exciting land out of the Future World Area, even if it featured no existing IP, than they will do by trying to prop it up in the corners with Film Characters that continue to dilute and confuse the logic of the land.

 

[capsshield]

The complaints are mainly about bad decisions. Progress is only progress if it’s better than what came before or if it is done properly.

Not everyone is a sheep who laps up every announcement like it’s the messiah speaking. Some are brave/clever enough to question it.

The point as I see it though is that the 1% never stop beating the dead horse. It's not coming back to life. It's fine to point something out and disagree with what was done, but it is a waste of time to continue for years on end. I've been reading this forum for several years now and the complaints never go away. Even if Disney wanted to change Epcot's direction back to where it once was it would take a dozen years and billions of dollars.

Tough choice here, the EPCOT of yesterday in a decade or more with no new attractions, or 5 to 10 new attractions over the next 12 years.

I don't drink the Kool-aide, but I know I have no say in any of these matters. I'm a passenger enjoying the ride bumps and all.

I could make a list of all the things Disney has done that are bad decisions IMO and most of that would be hindsight. Some of it's pure logic that you would think an idiot could figure out before doing some of the things they do, but of course I have no inside reasoning as to why they do what they do so that remark could be a tad harsh. For example building two instead of three rides in Galaxy's Edge or killing The Great Movie Ride to add Mickey when they could have used the launch bay area. A billion dollar or more movie franchise getting a major land and they short change the capacity issue.

They say knowing the magicians trick spoils the act an I imagine getting a lot of inside information could do that especially when you know of three or four plans and they choose your least favorite one.

Personally I wouldn't want to know and see the plans for a great Mary Poppins dark ride and then watch them choose to build a carousel.

It's bad enough learning that stuff years later.

I took several trips to the World in the early eighties and I remember what EPCOT was like and I can't argue that it was not amazing and inspiring. It was also boring due to a lack of balance in the attractions. The sense of fun and adventure you get riding Pirates was missing in the two now refurbed pavilions.

I do not prefer Test Track over World in Motion, or Mission Space over Horizons, but I do like them. I wish they could have kept them and added to the park, but they didn't. I do like Frozen better than Nordstrom. I always felt that ride could have been better if it was longer.

I feel that Nemo in the living seas with Turtle Talk draws the kids in and they can and do learn from those experiences. Remy should do the same for France.

I have a store in a mall that sells gifts from all over the world no IP at all, real unique items. a lot of them are fair trade, made by hand. The store next to me sells only IP items made in China. They sell 5 times what I sell in volume. I struggle, they prosper. I am my own boss, Disney answers to a board of directors. I can't blame Disney for trying to cash in on the money it spends developing it's IP.

People have been conditioned to like what they are familiar with and have grown to love. You can't change that however I believe in my vision and the customers that discover my store get so much more than junk. In a way my store is what Epcot was, a journey around the world full of awe and discovery. What I've created was inspired by those trips as a teenager.

 

[The Duck]

Yknow I was wondering about that the other day, if there are still even World's Fairs. The last one I can remember in the US was maybe Knoxville 82?

There was a World’s Fair in New Orleans in 1984 (I had a season pass and went 30 times!). While it was a cultural success, it failed miserably in financial matters and went bankrupt. One of the many reasons it failed is that too many people were comparing it to Epcot Center.

 

[sedati]

I still remember my trip to London in 1999 and seeing all these signs everywhere “STOP THE DOME!“ I had to ask someone what it meant, and it turned out it was in reference to the millennium dome that was being built. I was surprised that the main objection to this was that it was going to be a mini Epcot.

 

[twilight mitsuk]

There was a World’s Fair in New Orleans in 1984 (I had a season pass and went 30 times!). While it was a cultural success, it failed miserably in financial matters and went bankrupt. One of the many reasons it failed is that too many people were comparing it to Epcot Center.

Which a caused a major failure for arrow dynamics

 

[marni1971]

I still remember my trip to London in 1999 and seeing all these signs everywhere “STOP THE DOME!“ I had to ask someone what it meant, and it turned out it was in reference to the millennium dome that was being built. I was surprised that the main objection to this was that it was going to be a mini Epcot.

No, the main objection was the obscene amount of public (national lottery) money being spent on it. It was seen as a political vanity project.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Never mind they were on the road to fixing DCA and then decided to break it again.

I'm not someone who was fully convinced that DCA had its head on completely straight even after its big makeover, but they've certainly found ways to burn off some of the goodwill it did earn them.

I hope Star Wars doesn't do too much damage to the place across the street - I'd rather be there anyday and leave DCA to whoever wants it.

 

[phillip9698]

The GOTG roller coaster will unfortunately remain popular for many many years to come. Sure, some people will go to see Groot and a talking raccoon, but most people will want to ride it regardless of theme, just because it has thrillz. I bet a roller coaster in the spirit of 1982 EPCOT Center would have had similar crowds to the Guardians ride.

On a side note, imagine what it would be like if Disney built a new EPCOT Center today, keeping the original purpose, but with today's technology. It would probably be the greatest thing Disney ever did in the parks. Sad to see that they care more about spending billions on purchasing a rival studio and shoving movies where they don't belong in the parks.

And it would become quickly outdated again and then we would be here saying "imagine if Disney built a new EPCOT Center today, keeping the original purpose, but with today's technology". How many times do you expect them to completely rebuild an EPCOT Center?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They were tearing them out because they had not been maintained and updated properly and also because they were relying almost exclusively on corporate sponsorship, not because they were flash-in-the-pan attractions. There's a certain "Edutainment" attraction located in a giant geodesic sphere that is still quite popular, even though it is now time for it to get some TLC. It isn't the edutainment part that was the problem with EPCOT Center. Those attractions worked and were popular. The place was simply mismanaged during the later Eisner years, leading to some pavilions not getting the care they needed and others being replaced by lesser attractions. Given the right people spearheading attraction design, there is no doubt in my mind that they could make a new Future World that is both entertaining and informative. That takes work and risk and risk is not something that current management wants to take. (Hence, formula superhero movies, sequels, remakes, roller coasters, and IP overload.)

yep

NAIL ON THE HEAD.

yyyyeeeeeppppp

Of course not but I can't see anything being added to Epcot currently which is going to make the park worse?

Rat in France is a fantastic addition. It's popular in DLP, and fits well into the existing pavilion.

The space restaurant. Fantastic idea. Isn't fixed into the apparent IPCOT mindset but brings something fresh.

Guardians I'm not 100% sold on. Epcot needs a coaster and the worlds biggest indoor one sounds impressive. I'm just not sold on the IP as I'd prefer Guardians to have gone to studios.

They still then have so much space they can use from the empty spaces

Nope...additions are needed desperately - but this was coming to a head for a decade. Ratatouille is a clone...not a “fantastic idea”. They’re lucky that they can plug it right in, but no creative juice was expended to do so.

I like the space restaurant idea - I’m just shocked they are doing it. But I’ll take it.

Guardians doesn’t fit and never will...it’s simply doing the “stuff” thing on a misguided course to balance that I talked about earlier.

And all that - while “something” - doesn’t address the elephant: dilapidated or mothballed/defunct pavilion space that should and certainly can be done first. Nothing stopping then from doing something in innoventions, wol, and imagination...except they don’t want to pay for it.

Boo hoo. I weep for the stockholders and the $0.04 reduction in their dividend.
It will NEVER fix itself...mismanagement has to be corrected. Period. They are puttting some impressive lipstick on...but once that’s open the flaws will be even more apparent.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

And it would become quickly outdated again and then we would be here saying "imagine if Disney built a new EPCOT Center today, keeping the original purpose, but with today's technology". How many times do you expect them to completely rebuild an EPCOT Center?

Lol...every year. Because that’s amusement parks and that’s what they signed up for. Stagnation has always been the enemy and why most amusements close. Deep pockets should be used to block that. Welcome to real life.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'm not someone who was fully convinced that DCA had its head on completely straight even after its big makeover, but they've certainly found ways to burn off some of the goodwill it did earn them.

I hope Star Wars doesn't do too much damage to the place across the street - I'd rather be there anyday and leave DCA to whoever wants it.

It’s fascinating to hear the growing DCA backlash as an east coast “worlder”...

I like DCA 2.0...but can definitely see a problem similar to studios: they won’t pay to finish it...snapped off course when there was still dead areas needing significant investment.

That’s been Park management now as compared to old guard...they just won’t solve the problem and take the hit...making the problem bigger.

 

[phillip9698]

Lol...every year. Because that’s amusement parks and that’s what they signed up for. Stagnation has always been the enemy and why most amusements close. Deep pockets should be used to block that. Welcome to real life.

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic post or not. There is a difference between updating a ride and having to rebuild an entire park because it's core premise doesn't work after 15 years.

 

[geekza]

What’s more magical for a kid: a) lots of characters walking around the park and some excitement over what characters you might see, when, and where and probably having some more interesting interactions, or b) go wait in line for an hour, have the same interaction and get 3-4 pictures in front of a backdrop that capture you doing the same things with each character in essentially the same way down an assembly line of characters.

I think a mix of both can work well. When we went to see Mickey a couple of weeks back, the FastPass line experience was much like yours, however the semi-private nature of the Meet-n-Greet allowed for more personal interaction with the character. Directly in front of us was a family with a severely autistic child. He was non-verbal, obviously tired, and his parents were dealing with his outbursts as best they could. When it came to be his time to meet Mickey, both the handler and Mickey showed that they had been well-trained how to handle kids with special needs. As soon as Mickey came over to the child, you could see him connect. The child calmed down and gave Mickey a gentle kiss on his nose. Mickey got down on the floor with him and then took him around to look at and touch the various props on display. You could tell that there was a definite moment of connection between the two that meant something to both the child and his family. There's no way that kind of moment can happen with a spontaneous character appearance.

On the other hand, I saw grown adults' faces light up when one of the Country Bears appeared at rope drop to help walk the crowds back to Frontierland and when Alice showed up outside the Tea Cups. What is needed is balance. Right now, there are too many structured character spots and not enough spontaneous ones. Every time I walked past Princess Fairytale Hall, or whatever they call it, I got depressed thinking about the wonderful Snow White ride that used to be there. It seems like every area in all of the parks now have designated greeting areas with long lines everywhere you look. I can't imagine having a small child who would want to stop and wait in line to meet every character. That would take up your whole day. My memories of running into characters in the MK when I was a child are so strong because they were surprises. All it took was a quick handshake or hug and that memory was seared into my mind for life.

TL/DR: I can understand the benefits of having structured Meet-n-Greets for the "big" characters as they allow for more intimate interaction, but Disney has gone overboard with them to the detriment of the overall character-meeting experience. Being realistic, the structured Meet-n-Greets are there to sell PhotoPass pics.

 

[Kman101]

I mean, I think Cranium Command itself has a lot to do with Imagination. I suppose it depends on how you define the pavilion. If the Imagination pavilion is to be more generic and encompass all of how the mind works, which is kind of how I’ve always seen it, Inside Out works perfectly.

But I'd rather it not be more generic. Imagination is broad, I get that, but I think at their core, the focus of both are very different. For me I just don't really think Imagination pavilion and want Inside Out there. Inside Out wasn't about Riley's imagination. She's not imagining her emotions or interacting with them. We're going on a journey with her emotions, not her imagination. Just how I see it. But of course they could make it work and it's not the hardest stretch, I just think about it a little more and don't want it in there just because. If it were in the theater and Figment stuck around, sure they could easily co-exist together.

 

[Kman101]

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic post or not. There is a difference between updating a ride and having to rebuild an entire park because it's core premise doesn't work after 15 years.

But why gut several omnimovers for thrill rides? Horizons and World of Motion could still easily work today and we could also have a Space pavilion and Test Track. We shouldn't have lost rides for quick thrills. We should have expanded. The park would be in a whole lot better shape for many reasons.

 

[mikejs78]

I can't tell if that was a sarcastic post or not. There is a difference between updating a ride and having to rebuild an entire park because it's core premise doesn't work after 15 years.

Epcot didn't have to be rebuilt every 15 years. Most of the attractions would have been fine with updates. The problem is they let them stagnate/closed a bunch, and now they put themselves in the position of having to rebuild the park.

DHS is also being rebuilt. Does that mean that it's premise of a theme park about movies isn't sustainable? Universal had to be "rebuilt" as well.

I think we all look at MK/Disneyland as the model, when really they're the exception. Theme parks need to be rebuilt fairly frequently, constantly updated, upgraded, etc to stay relevant. The castle parks are the exception, not the rule, because they tapped into something timeless that can't easily be replicated. And even MK could use some significant love....

It's not the premise of Epcot that has caused them to have to rebuild the park. It's their mismanagement over the years.