Bloomberg - No Disney Fun for Orlando Workers as Poverty Nears 20%

[BigTxEars]

I'm going to generalize here, I warn you - but let me guess (correct me if I am wrong) - lower-middle to middle class upbringing, white, male, and went to college before the cost of a 4-year degree was the equivalent of the price of a home mortgage?

Now, I am not saying all that as a pejorative - because all of those things apply to me, too.

The thing is, that just isn't typical of America today. The middle class, and even lower-middle class, has all but disappeared. We were sold this "everyone can go up the ladder" fallacy that never made sense to begin with - when everyone is hanging on to the ladder, we still need folks to build the ladder, maintain the ladder, and provide services to the folks on that ladder. And eventually, the ladder gets backed up because there aren't enough stops to step off.

As a society we have decided that service and similar jobs are "entry level" when this country was not built like that. It's an invention of post-war America and the optimism of the mid-century that conveniently forgot that by saying that lower-tier pay jobs aren't "careers" when for much of our development, they were, and folks could live a modest living at, and without that - well, that's what we are learning now in the 21st century.

Gone are the days when you went to a 4-year college, and could walk out and find a job right after, work there for 30 years, and then retire. That's the crisis that Gen X/Y is having right now - there are way too many college educated folks than we have jobs for, and end up working 2 or 3 jobs just to keep up with the massive debt of that college education.

Folks that are in their late-20's, early-30's who are still living with roommates when before they'd have a home of their own and kids. I'd say about half the folks in my age group that I keep up with from high school/college (I'm 35) have kids now, the other half don't, and most of those folks who do have kids have only done so in the last few years. Studies show that most folks in that age group have had something like a half dozen different jobs since college, vs. making a career somewhere as was the norm before. There is this massive shift in society happening because of this, because it trickles on down to everything - from the future of Social Security, to property values (eventually, home values are going to drop because demand will go down as the population cycles).

There are so many factors it's incredible - but they all lead back to the fact that the traditional "start at the bottom and work your way up" view point is not in line with the reality of America in the 21st century.

White male, no college degree (went in the USMC after high school) and yes a middle class upbringing.

And the rest I don't agree with, lots of opportunity to do very well in America today if someone wants it and is willing to work for it. You can still start at the bottom and work your way up, I am surrounded by it daily and see it in action each and every day. I don't buy that crappy liberal dribble (not directed at your post, just in general) about the lack of oppurtunity in America today, again I see that opportunity each day. I also sadly see too many kids today to lazy or proud to take advantage of it. But I also know a number of them who have and who are doing well for themselves.

And as far as job like I posted earlier come on down to SE Texas, tons of good paying quality job and not enough people to fill them. I particapate monthly in a state wide group linking vets with employers each month. In fact I go next Thursday again, and there will be more employers looking than vets needing jobs. These are quality jobs in strong companies, with the ability to work your way up. How do I know that? Because many of the employers there to recruit came thru (i.e. were hired from) this very program and are back representing their companies as managers, recruiters etc. I have seen this same thing over and over again for the last 2 years in this group.

But honestly (and no disrespect meant) I really don't care to talk economics on a WDW board anymore. I don't come here for that, I will exit the thread at this point.

 

[TubaGeek]

Anyone who can't see that the current frontline CM pay rate is a joke is ignorant, cruel, or both.

 

[raven]

How do the unions work at WDW? Is it mandatory to join for full time staff? Are there seperate unions for different kinds of empolyees? What do the dues claim to support?

Just asking as I don't know.

For the most part, joining a union is not mandatory (exceptions may be for entertainment/Equity positions? Not in that department so I don't know) but it is strongly encouraged. When I had Traditions, the first thing we did early in the morning before the sun came up, was listen to a union presentation that sounded fairly convincing to wide eyed, possibly sleep deprived, new cast members.

THAT is exactly how they get you. When you are tired and not quite awake yet and don't know what is to come when you walk in that door to Traditions first thing in the morning. "Here, just sign this card I'm passing around and hand it back to me. If you don't, Mickey is going to rape you of your wages." (Exact quote from Unite Here Local 362 rep).

I got suckered in. they started to take dues immediately from your very first paycheck yet couldn't help you until you have been there for at least 90 days. By then you've already given them over $200. (I paid $200 for a teachers union for an entire year!)

I received only 3 newsletters in the 4 years I was in that union. When it was time to vote they shoved it in your face to vote "NO" but refused to tell you what you were voting for. The union reps were a joke. None of them stood up for you or even knew much about the union, and when they sat in on a coaching they would run off and blab about your situation to everyone.

When people sign the dotted line to take these jobs, they sign knowing exactly how much they're getting paid.

Nope. Although it would be nice if they kept their word on the wage they quote you.

A High school diploma or GED.

For Americans, sure. Not really true for foreigners because Disney get's a tax incentive to hire them so they will always take them before Americans.

You can still start at the bottom and work your way up, I am surrounded by it daily and see it in action each and every day. I don't buy that crappy liberal dribble (not directed at your post, just in general) about the lack of oppurtunity in America today, again I see that opportunity each day.

Not at WDW. I worked with people who celebrated 30 years in the company and are still getting less than $12/hr. They've tried "working their way up" and getting leadership roles but let's be honest. Disney isn't a magical company where everyone is all happy all the time. That's just a front. In reality it is a money-hungry corporate giant and you have to either know somebody or get on your knees to move up. Surprise. It's the truth and it's sickening.

Lets bring into discussion how Disney gets away with paying these low wages. "If you don't want it there are 50 people behind you that will take your job." This is put in your face. And they expect you to be happy with what they give you because they give you free entry to the parks. Well, so what? Some fast food places give their employees free food yet pays higher than Disney. They simply just don't care.

 

[ford91exploder]

Didn't we just have this arguement about 3 months ago?

Anyway federal pay deductions are mandatory, private sector price increases you can make an individual choice whether it was worth it as a consumer.

and of course there's the WalMart study...it shows the average consumer would pay about $12 a year to give their 1.4 million employees a living wage(granted that was using $12/hr). Not to mention how this would stimulate the economy and bring in more tax revenue.

Lets wait a few years and see what happens in Seattle.

What will happen in Seattle is automation, if this country consisted of more small and medium scale companies the 15 dollar minimum wage MIGHT have worked. But since massive multinationals have come to dominate American business. What we will see is automation replacing those fast food jobs. I know several engineers working on robotic fast food kitchens... Not to mention the momentum machines burger robot which delivers 360 wrapped sandwiches per hour.

Who will be left to actually buy the products is an open question.

For instance Starbucks could easily replace the baristas with a robot coffee maker. Many of us already have one it's called a keurig. In Canada I've seen robotic coffee machines which grind the beans brew the coffee and steam the milk for a latte the only action required is to place the cup. Replace the register with a order kiosk and a conveyor system for the cups and who needs baristas any longer...

 

[ford91exploder]

I think a modicum of dignity comes from working hard and advancing in pay, responsibility and position where you work not from someone handing out money based on pity. Look at the modern welfare system in this country and tell me it builds dignity, it does not IMO.

Am I the only one that thinks entry level jobs are there as a stepping stone and that hard work still pays off in America? It certainly has for me and others I know.

Minimum wage jobs are proliferating because of the huge influx of foreign labor. We had a classic example in Burlington MA a couple years back. MickeyD's was advertising minimum wage jobs the kicker was they REQUIRED a Bachelors Degree...

Ordinarily when there is a shortage of labor wages rise. The cheap labor immigration advocates want to keep importing labor to suppress wages.

Canada has hit a tipping point and they are reforming their guest labor policies because the Canadian government who for the most part still works for Canadians found that fast fooderies were using the guest labor to keep wages low while having a 'no Canadians need apply' policy. This of course is what's happening in the US as well.

 

[WDWVolFan]

Probably wouldn't hurt to have the Disney bean counters take a closer look at Costco. Sounds like that company pays their frontline people significantly better.

A few years ago, Wall Street analysts reviewed Costco's overall performance and initially determined that stockholders should be getting more for their investment in the company. At first glance, employees were getting paid to much. By cutting staff and wages to better align with other retailers, such as Wal-Mart, Costco could generate better dividends, which should be priority #1.

Upon further review, the analysts had a revelation of sorts. The reason that Costco was averaging twice as many sales per employee as Wal-Mart was simply because those working for Costco were more satisfied due to better pay and benefits. What a novel thought. Employees satisfaction does have an impact on the bottom line.

Costco is one of the best retail jobs you can have.
Their hours are a lot shorter than other stores of that kind, they are closed on most holidays and those people are always happy.
We just had a new Costco open up close to where we live and they had people transferred from NJ, CA, etc. because Costco was promoting them.

 

[WDWVolFan]

Minimum wage jobs are proliferating because of the huge influx of foreign labor. We had a classic example in Burlington MA a couple years back. MickeyD's was advertising minimum wage jobs the kicker was they REQUIRED a Bachelors Degree...

Ordinarily when there is a shortage of labor wages rise. The cheap labor immigration advocates want to keep importing labor to suppress wages.

Canada has hit a tipping point and they are reforming their guest labor policies because the Canadian government who for the most part still works for Canadians found that fast fooderies were using the guest labor to keep wages low while having a 'no Canadians need apply' policy. This of course is what's happening in the US as well.

Hence why so many folks want to close the border to illegal immigrants...they come in for a better life and are getting a better life even making squat...so employers can undercut those who are legal but in need of a job...I won't even enter in the other aspects of that topic because it will turn ugly and this is the Most Magical Board in the World!

 

[BigTxEars]

THAT is exactly how they get you. When you are tired and not quite awake yet and don't know what is to come when you walk in that door to Traditions first thing in the morning. "Here, just sign this card I'm passing around and hand it back to me. If you don't, Mickey is going to rape you of your wages." (Exact quote from Unite Here Local 362 rep).

I got suckered in. they started to take dues immediately from your very first paycheck yet couldn't help you until you have been there for at least 90 days. By then you've already given them over $200. (I paid $200 for a teachers union for an entire year!)

I received only 3 newsletters in the 4 years I was in that union. When it was time to vote they shoved it in your face to vote "NO" but refused to tell you what you were voting for. The union reps were a joke. None of them stood up for you or even knew much about the union, and when they sat in on a coaching they would run off and blab about your situation to everyone.



Nope. Although it would be nice if they kept their word on the wage they quote you.



For Americans, sure. Not really true for foreigners because Disney get's a tax incentive to hire them so they will always take them before Americans.



Not at WDW. I worked with people who celebrated 30 years in the company and are still getting less than $12/hr. They've tried "working their way up" and getting leadership roles but let's be honest. Disney isn't a magical company where everyone is all happy all the time. That's just a front. In reality it is a money-hungry corporate giant and you have to either know somebody or get on your knees to move up. Surprise. It's the truth and it's sickening.

Lets bring into discussion how Disney gets away with paying these low wages. "If you don't want it there are 50 people behind you that will take your job." This is put in your face. And they expect you to be happy with what they give you because they give you free entry to the parks. Well, so what? Some fast food places give their employees free food yet pays higher than Disney. They simply just don't care.

If anyone is not happy with the job they have they should find one with better opportunity. That is all part of being responsible for your own success. If the 30 year people you mentioned are happy at Disney then more power to them, if they are unhappy with their job yet have been there 30 years then that is 100% on them not on Disney at all. I have been with my company 15 years and what they owe me they square up on every two weeks, outside of that they own me squat.

Unions are businesses as well, they want (needs) dues to survive. I would take what they say with again of salt as fear tactics are common with them. They are in effect just insurance salesmen, selling a product you only need to use in a bad situation. Of course they often point out all the bad things that could happen as a selling point. I think unions have out lived their usefulness in many ways.

 

[njDizFan]

What will happen in Seattle is automation, if this country consisted of more small and medium scale companies the 15 dollar minimum wage MIGHT have worked. But since massive multinationals have come to dominate American business. What we will see is automation replacing those fast food jobs. I know several engineers working on robotic fast food kitchens... Not to mention the momentum machines burger robot which delivers 360 wrapped sandwiches per hour.

Who will be left to actually buy the products is an open question.

For instance Starbucks could easily replace the baristas with a robot coffee maker. Many of us already have one it's called a keurig. In Canada I've seen robotic coffee machines which grind the beans brew the coffee and steam the milk for a latte the only action required is to place the cup. Replace the register with a order kiosk and a conveyor system for the cups and who needs baristas any longer...

Agreed on automation. My company(top 5 US bank) will be speing about about 500 Million this year to start that process. Self serve kiosks instead of tellers...drastically reducing operational costs

 

[Frankie The Beer]

I think the wages are fine for the employees they have. You bump up the employees wage to 15 bucks an hour and then I'm paying 4 grand for a value resort vacation. No thanks.

The real issue is not how much Disney pays so much as people thinking they can survive on a Disney World/Hospitality industry wage. You can't. I worked at a Six Flags, I made enough money to keep me in beer and girls when I was younger, but I guess I was smart enough to know I would never make a decent living spinning cotton candy. The underlying problem is people refuse to invest in themselves and settle for the 8 dollar an hour job and then complain about it. The funny thing is, none of these other corporations, McDonalds, Wal-Mart, have caved in to this magical 15 dollar an hour pipe dream for their employees, its not going to happen at Disney World either.

I wish everyone could make want they think they are worth, but its not going to happen.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I think the wages are fine for the employees they have. You bump up the employees wage to 15 bucks an hour and then I'm paying 4 grand for a value resort vacation. No thanks.

The real issue is not how much Disney pays so much as people thinking they can survive on a Disney World/Hospitality industry wage. You can't. I worked at a Six Flags, I made enough money to keep me in beer and girls when I was younger, but I guess I was smart enough to know I would never make a decent living spinning cotton candy. The underlying problem is people refuse to invest in themselves and settle for the 8 dollar an hour job and then complain about it. The funny thing is, none of these other corporations, McDonalds, Wal-Mart, have caved in to this magical 15 dollar an hour pipe dream for their employees, its not going to happen at Disney World either.

I wish everyone could make want they think they are worth, but its not going to happen.

I'm sure you'll be remembered for your humanity.

Also, you are paying Four Grand for a vacation here. The average cost for a family of four is $7000. (including transportation)

 

[71jason]

The real issue is not how much Disney pays so much as people thinking they can survive on a Disney World/Hospitality industry wage.

Part of that is Disney spin to CMs. I know plenty making above minimum wage but nowhere near real money convinced they'll get a shot at a decent-paying (although by no means wealthy) manager gig. Most never will. But by their early 30s when they realize that, they'll have put down ties here, not really have the savings to make a cross-country move, etc.

Not sure why this debate keeps coming back to a government-mandated minimum wage. This is both a different and larger issue.

 

[El Grupo]

Costco is one of the best retail jobs you can have.
Their hours are a lot shorter than other stores of that kind, they are closed on most holidays and those people are always happy.
We just had a new Costco open up close to where we live and they had people transferred from NJ, CA, etc. because Costco was promoting them.

Yes, it is one of the best retail jobs primarily because of the way Costco management has determined to treat employees and run their business. Also, their compensation for executives is not out of control in comparison to many companies. For example, in 2012, Costco's total compensation for CEO Craig Jelinek was $4.83 million or 48 times their employees' median wage. On the other hand, Wal-Mart's CEO received roughly $19.3 million or as much as 796 average Wal-Mart employees.

In 2013, Jelinek received $5.4 million. For comparison, Iger got $34.3 million. Plus, at $10.7 million, Jay Rasulo, Disney's CFO, made almost twice as much as Costco's CEO.

Costco starts their hourly employees off at a higher wage than most retailers. Then, an employee sees pay raises each time they hit a benchmark (something like every 800 - 1000 hours worked). After an employee hits a certain point, they then receive bonuses in addition to the hourly pay. Also, working on Sundays equals pay x 1.5.

With this in mind, the average hourly Costco employee was earning $20.89/hour (not including overtime) in mid-2013. At the same time, Wal-Mart employees in the U.S. were earning $12.67 per hour. I think it is fair to say both companies overall did quite well that year financially.

On a personal note, my wife and I had the pleasure of working in salaried positions with Disney (about 20 years between us). She has been with Costco now for a few years now and would say that she enjoyed the work experience with both companies. IMO, however, the advantage with Costco is that they are more employee-centric, and there is far less internal politics and nepotism than at Disney.

 

[BigTxEars]

I think the wages are fine for the employees they have. You bump up the employees wage to 15 bucks an hour and then I'm paying 4 grand for a value resort vacation. No thanks.

The real issue is not how much Disney pays so much as people thinking they can survive on a Disney World/Hospitality industry wage. You can't. I worked at a Six Flags, I made enough money to keep me in beer and girls when I was younger, but I guess I was smart enough to know I would never make a decent living spinning cotton candy. The underlying problem is people refuse to invest in themselves and settle for the 8 dollar an hour job and then complain about it. The funny thing is, none of these other corporations, McDonalds, Wal-Mart, have caved in to this magical 15 dollar an hour pipe dream for their employees, its not going to happen at Disney World either.

I wish everyone could make want they think they are worth, but its not going to happen.

If I could make was I was worth I would work about a day and retire

I agree the low pay part of entry level jobs is what push people to advance. Who would want more responsibility and stress if not for more money? It is a design that works.

 

[WDW1974]

Threads like this make me angry. Truly. A deep rage at what I perceive and firmly believe is ignorance, arrogance and just plain nastiness. The underlying thoughts are:

1.) Poor people are lazy and unmotivated and want to sit on their arses and do nothing and , worse, they want us to help them through social programs;
2.) Since 'I' worked my way up and am doing pretty good today, that means that any/every one must have the same opportunities and options available to them;
3.) There are plenty of jobs out there in the USA of the post-economic apocalypse and they are good jobs and well paying and people who don't want them are just snobby entitled kids.



I know people who used to make high five figures and six figures who have been unemployed for YEARS ... many have given up and rely on savings, family and friends to live. Not all is the BS American Dream that some fools still believe is the rule and not the exception.

I will admit right here that I am underemployed. The best work and most lucrative I have made in the last six years has sent me to Asia (something again, I know isn't open to any/every one).

I don't get the sheer stupidity of so many who think that this economy can sustain a healthy society without giving every American willing to work 40 hours a week enough money to pay for the basic necessities of life without major problems now and down the road.

And I come from a wealthy family, a VERY wealthy family and I still can't fathom this 'tude of (let em sink or swim, but I sure don't want any of my money going to help them and I also don't want business to be 'harmed'' -- the great lie of fair wages -- by giving people living wages.)

 

[xstech25]

Translation of what most people in this topic are saying: "gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmeee." Seeing how many complaining, lazy, good for nothing leeches this topic is attracting really is a sad reflection of society. These are the kind of people that buy nice cars and eat out every other night, then can't figure out why they don't have any money. Its always someone else's fault.

I paid my way through college making $4 an hour. Some of you really need to read the book "The Millionaire Next Door," or since you probably don't read books, listen to the Dave Ramsey radio show or something. At least expose yourself to something that builds your common sense skills!

 

[Lee]

Translation of what most people in this topic are saying: "gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmeee." Seeing how many complaining, lazy, good for nothing leeches this topic is attracting really is a sad reflection of society. These are the kind of people that buy nice cars and eat out every other night, then can't figure out why they don't have any money. Its always someone else's fault.

I paid my way through college making $4 an hour. Some of you really need to read the book "The Millionaire Next Door," or since you probably don't read books, listen to the Dave Ramsey radio show or something. At least expose yourself to something that builds your common sense skills!

Wow...hit a nerve, huh?

 

[PhotoDave219]

Translation of what most people in this topic are saying: "gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmeee." Seeing how many complaining, lazy, good for nothing leeches this topic is attracting really is a sad reflection of society. These are the kind of people that buy nice cars and eat out every other night, then can't figure out why they don't have any money. Its always someone else's fault.

I paid my way through college making $4 an hour. Some of you really need to read the book "The Millionaire Next Door," or since you probably don't read books, listen to the Dave Ramsey radio show or something. At least expose yourself to something that builds your common sense skills!

Common sense says you should be ignored.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The problem isn't that Disney pays $10 an hour, it's that all the blue collar, middle class manufacturing jobs that used to pay $20+ an hour in America have been lost to China and India where they pay $1 an hour. The other problem is jobs that used to require dozens of people have now been replaced by a single person with a computer or automation.

It's noble to want everyone to make a living wage regardless of their job but as someone mentioned earlier if we start paying $15 an hour for a job that requires 1 week of training than we must also raise the wage of jobs that require a few year of training or experience to $25 an hour, and the jobs that require a college degree will have to start at $35 an hour, etc, etc, etc. If the wages don't go up across the board there is no reason to go to college, take training programs, or take on more responsibility, if they do go up across the board prices will go up at an equivalent rate and we'll just end up in the same situation.

We can't fix this simply by raising wages, we need to get our manufacturing jobs back, I don't know how we do that but it starts with buying American if we can.

ETA: Problem 2 is the corporate mentality that profits have to be maximized at all costs. We used to have mom and pop companies where profit was the goal but those that helped make the profit were rewarded for their hard work, now everything is corporate and all that matters is keeping the shareholders happy, often at the expense of the employees.

 

[MarkTwain]

I feel like we're having the wrong discussion here.

To me the question (in this thread) isn't whether employees at places like McDonalds, Walmart, and Six Flags are making enough to live on... but rather whether Disney should be expecting workers of the quality of McDonalds, Walmart, and Six Flags.

Personally, I would assume everyone here would want Disney to hold their cast members to a higher standard. In my view, that means they should be paid accordingly.