Bloomberg - No Disney Fun for Orlando Workers as Poverty Nears 20%

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one that thinks entry level jobs are there as a stepping stone and that hard work still pays off in America? It certainly has for me and others I know.

That only works in a society that doesn't discourage children from seeking blue collar jobs, has strong domestic manufacturing, doesn't put people in debt to get a degree, doesn't sell people on worthless degrees as a ticket to a job, invests in public sector work like infrastructure and doesn't have easily bought politicians looking for ways to make a faster buck than Wal-Mart.

In other words, a country where there actually is opportunity for personal job growth. When 32 year old McDonalds employees want $15 for flipping burgers, it's a sign that a major rethinking of what affects the economy needs to happen.

Just to be clear, I don't think raising the minimum wage will solve the larger problems. Once again, it appears the only options on the table here (as is often the case with US politics) are two extremes - $8 and $15. Might as well be $3/hour ("help the job creators!") and $20/hour ("save the poor!").
 

raven

Well-Known Member
Let's also not forget that when those wages go up, the unions always dues skyrocket as well to make themselves more money. So the take home pay for a lot of these CMs doesn't change much with a raise.
 

tenchikiss

Active Member
People are entitled for wanting to work 40 hours a week and NOT be in poverty? Odd. Odd in the sense that people can work at entry level jobs in Japan and still be able to support themselves WHILE receiving universal healthcare so their work force is as healthy as it can be. So odd indeed.

Putting aside all that why is it okay for guests to expect 5 star expectations while at Disney when their employees are getting paid worse than those at McDonalds? I am not saying either deserve poverty rates but at Disney there is a huge difference in regards to nonpaid time to get just GET into position and what you are allowed to look like at work. I mean why would anyone want to go through all the trouble of working at Disney when it is easier to work at McDonalds with an easier ladder of success and raise opportunities?

I mean...people want a golden experience at Disney. I think paying better for better quality and long term employees would help the overall experience at Disney. Instead of dealing with a new batch of kids every six months we would have cast members who are there for years who actually KNOW things and can give out answers other than I don't know. If we can't think humanely about the situation can't we think selfishly about it and how paying cast members more would better our vacations? Or should cast members just take up another job to make ends meet because life is unfair and kids don't need to see their parents and sleep is overrated?
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
True enough. Though with the way the unions are, the likelihood of a major raise coming from the Mouse is practically nonexistent.

The unions are absolutely useless considering the first provision of the contract is a non-strike clause.

Could you imagine how fast Disney would have to cave if all the bus drivers went on strike or had a sick-out? Or if all of entertainment did the same? Or any other department? They might actually get paid a decent wage.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
How do the unions work at WDW? Is it mandatory to join for full time staff? Are there seperate unions for different kinds of empolyees? What do the dues claim to support?

Just asking as I don't know.
 

katiekinzakat

Active Member
For the most part, joining a union is not mandatory (exceptions may be for entertainment/Equity positions? Not in that department so I don't know) but it is strongly encouraged. When I had Traditions, the first thing we did early in the morning before the sun came up, was listen to a union presentation that sounded fairly convincing to wide eyed, possibly sleep deprived, new cast members.

No idea what the dues actually go for as I didn't join and now am seasonal so I'm not eligible anyways.

Yes to separate unions for different departments.UNITE HERE Local 362 for Attractions/Custodial/Vacation Planners, Local 737 for Food & Beverage/Housekeeping, IATSE for stage techs, Actors' Equity of course, and many others
 

xstech25

Well-Known Member
You have to think about how many of the hourly employees are kids in college or college age that are just trying to get some work experience and don't have families to pay for.

There are a lot of people that live in the Orlando area that worked at Disney when they were young and then the experienced enabled them to become worth more in the market and then they go to a higher pay career. That's really the way it's supposed to work, work for min wage when you're young (most everyone does) and then move up or over to somewhere that pays more when you become worth more. A 20 year old popcorn seller is great for the economy, a 40 year old popcorn seller not so much. When people sign the dotted line to take these jobs, they sign knowing exactly how much they're getting paid.
 

Mouse_Trap

Well-Known Member
The problem is that if wages go up to dramatically, everyone else puts their rates up to.

So if Disney boosted their lowest paid by 50% to $15, those on $15 now would want $22.50 etc, then there is more money in the economy so other prices go up too, if every job which paid minimum type wages then was forced to increase their wages by 50% to compete, the price off all your commodities would also increase from you groceries, to entertainment etc....basically everything which involves manpower.

Next thing you know, manufacturing it that district/country etc becomes uncompetitive with overseas, imports soar and domestic production slumps, companies outsource or produce abroad and jobs are lost.

It's not to say that these people don't deserve more money, but some jobs have to be entry-level or low paid otherwise the rest of the structure doesn't fit. Going down that line, your going to end up with Communism, something which I didn't think was a popular concept in the US.

Given that - this is why we tip. GENEROUSLY.

I still don't think agree with tipping for standard, or expected service. The cost of basic service in providing a product or service should be included in its basic price. Tips are then given where the service adds value to the consumer, generally when they have been provided service well above the standard expected.

I just don't get the concept of tipping for someone who just hands you some food, does basic waiting on a table etc. That's a core required of the job and it's cost should be included in the price of the product.
 

njDizFan

Well-Known Member
Tipping is such a strange concept. I understand it is an agreed upon social contract for certain positions. And often it is built into the employees' wage(for example a server may only get $2.13/hr).

Some countries it is built into the price of the product. In many upscale restaurants there is no tipping, service is part of the price of your meal. In turn these servers are paid as true professionals.

I generally tip fairly generously unless there is some agregious errors. But I understand the point made above. You have to tip: valet, servers/waiters, salon workers/barbers, massage theraprists, housekeeping, baggage couriers, movers etc...It gets to the point that I need an etiquette book to figure out who and what percentage is required.
 

71jason

Well-Known Member
The unions are absolutely useless considering the first provision of the contract is a non-strike clause.

Could you imagine how fast Disney would have to cave if all the bus drivers went on strike or had a sick-out? Or if all of entertainment did the same? Or any other department? They might actually get paid a decent wage.

How long has that been in there? I remember a threatened strike--probably 20 years ago now--Teamsters made it clear they would not cross a picket line to make deliveries, Mouse caved instantly.

Hmm, I might have answered my own question...
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Disney is not the only employer in the Orlando area. People tend to forget this fact.

No, but as has been pointed out - they are the largest, and therefore set the bar.

Unless you were trying to say the old "well, they can go work some where else" dismissal, which ignores the real fact that is : THEY HAVE.

There is a reason that the percentage of CP folks is so high that Disney relies on for cheap labor (I feel like it was 43% of FOTL employees at one point not long ago?) and just about everyone agrees that the average experience one has with CM's at WDW isn't nearly as good as it used to be. That doesn't mean there aren't still great CM's, and even great CP'ers - but they used to be the rule, not the exception.

That's why you basically have teenagers and retired folks now (though even they are not as prevalent as they were). It's very difficult to keep family folks, or career FOTL CM's anymore, who used to be part of the Disney experience.

They have gone elsewhere for jobs - when McDonalds up the road pays about the same, plus you don't have to deal with all the hassle to just get to your job (drive or car pool to a central lot, take a bus to the park, walk all the way to the attraction - vs. driving up and parking 20 feet from the building, walking in and starting to work).

And that's why we don't have nearly the universally magical experience we used to have, where everyone was always upbeat and happy and everyone went out of their way for every guest. That's not rose colored glasses - that's really how it used to be.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one that thinks entry level jobs are there as a stepping stone and that hard work still pays off in America? It certainly has for me and others I know.

I'm going to generalize here, I warn you - but let me guess (correct me if I am wrong) - lower-middle to middle class upbringing, white, male, and went to college before the cost of a 4-year degree was the equivalent of the price of a home mortgage?

Now, I am not saying all that as a pejorative - because all of those things apply to me, too.

The thing is, that just isn't typical of America today. The middle class, and even lower-middle class, has all but disappeared. We were sold this "everyone can go up the ladder" fallacy that never made sense to begin with - when everyone is hanging on to the ladder, we still need folks to build the ladder, maintain the ladder, and provide services to the folks on that ladder. And eventually, the ladder gets backed up because there aren't enough stops to step off.

As a society we have decided that service and similar jobs are "entry level" when this country was not built like that. It's an invention of post-war America and the optimism of the mid-century that conveniently forgot that by saying that lower-tier pay jobs aren't "careers" when for much of our development, they were, and folks could live a modest living at, and without that - well, that's what we are learning now in the 21st century.

Gone are the days when you went to a 4-year college, and could walk out and find a job right after, work there for 30 years, and then retire. That's the crisis that Gen X/Y is having right now - there are way too many college educated folks than we have jobs for, and end up working 2 or 3 jobs just to keep up with the massive debt of that college education.

Folks that are in their late-20's, early-30's who are still living with roommates when before they'd have a home of their own and kids. I'd say about half the folks in my age group that I keep up with from high school/college (I'm 35) have kids now, the other half don't, and most of those folks who do have kids have only done so in the last few years. Studies show that most folks in that age group have had something like a half dozen different jobs since college, vs. making a career somewhere as was the norm before. There is this massive shift in society happening because of this, because it trickles on down to everything - from the future of Social Security, to property values (eventually, home values are going to drop because demand will go down as the population cycles).

There are so many factors it's incredible - but they all lead back to the fact that the traditional "start at the bottom and work your way up" view point is not in line with the reality of America in the 21st century.
 
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71jason

Well-Known Member
@AEfx Not quoting your last excellent post simply for space, but agreed. There's been a sea change since Boomers hit 40, and they don't seem to realize it. But the main danger is the far-reaching effects. People in their mid-30s without a house, with minimal savings, with no meaningful retirement plan (and a Social Security system that will crash before they come close to 60). Gen X and Gen Y have been able to rely on our parents as a safety net--our kids are not going to have that.

Anyway, drifted off topic, as these threads are want to do. Suffice it to say, Orlando is a microcosm of the country, where nationwide problems are magnified. As I said in the Spirited thread, the "kids" living here are doing themselves irrevocable financial damage, in addition to whatever psychological issues they are avoiding.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
@AEfx Not quoting your last excellent post simply for space, but agreed. There's been a sea change since Boomers hit 40, and they don't seem to realize it. But the main danger is the far-reaching effects. People in their mid-30s without a house, with minimal savings, with no meaningful retirement plan (and a Social Security system that will crash before they come close to 60). Gen X and Gen Y have been able to rely on our parents as a safety net--our kids are not going to have that.

Exactly - that's just it. The effects have only begun to trickle out, the next few decades are going to be incredible. Our entire "system" - education, employment, government, social structure - it's all based on this treadmill that is both broken, and does not have the expected amount of folks upon it which were supposed to keep it running. At the same time, it has people on it a lot longer (folks living longer) than was intended. The entire thing is on really thin ice (and has already broken through in some spots), which...

...also leads right into this topic, because the environment in Orlando is simply one place that it's starting to show because of it's concentration of folks in that age group. It's also congruent with the lesser overall CM experience of the last decade or so. Most CM's used to be very enthusiastic about their jobs - now a bored college kid avoiding eye contact is the norm (except for the really creepy ones it also attracts with those crazy eyes who won't shut up LOL).
 

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