News 'Beyond Big Thunder Mountain' Blue Sky concept revealed for Magic Kingdom

Dcgc28

Member
My fault maybe for not quoting the post? I have now quoted for your reference below. If he would have just stopped at the land is the most restrictive of the four big lands I could maybe agree with your comparison. But the fact that he refers to “the romanticized and whitewashed fairytale of our nations westward expansion is inherently problematic” implies that it’s at least part of the reason it’s being considered or should be considered to be rethemed or tweaked. And again my question is what about the current iteration of Frontierland could possibly be considered “problematic?”
Ah yes my apologies then. I agree with you, that Frontierland from an ideological stand point is not at all problematic and that my original response to you is the reason why it's changing.

Sorry if I came off overly harsh, I should've assumed a conversation was already happening.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Ah yes my apologies then. I agree with you, that Frontierland from an ideological stand point is not at all problematic and that my original response to you is the reason why it's changing.

Sorry if I came off overly harsh, I should've assumed a conversation was already happening.

No worries. My fault for not quoting the post. Really wasn’t looking to make it a big thing.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Who says there aren't heroes in the villain land? I thought the entire idea is that WE the parkgoers would faceoff against the Disney villains in the attractions, and maybe the heroic characters from the movie might make a cameo to assist. But the idea is that the park guests are the heroes.

Then you take the cool factor away from them. The coolness of villians is that people love to hate them.

If you relate to the villain too much or on their side, you lose the cool factor.

If you face off or experience the peril that the villains cause, then that is the strength of a well-designed attraction based on a film's story elsewhere.

The idea EVERYWHERE is that a park guest is a hero in a theme park. Visceral feelings of adventure and peril, then the celebration finale or outcome.

If a villain's ride has a hero assisting you, or you as the hero. How is that different from an attraction that could be anywhere in the park and why does it compliment or ask for a land based Soley on villains? Limiting and homogenizing, which is a problem Disney theme parks have had.

In Star Tours since day one, you are in the shoes of someone like Luke Skywalker, innocently exploring and called to adventure. C3PO and R2D2 are there as supporting roles the same way they would be to a protagonist. You face off with the Villains.

Back to the Future, you were in the role of a Marty McFly and Biff Tannen you directly face off/stop.

Splash Mountain, you viscerally felt the same things that Brer Fox felt through the story of him tricking Brer Fox and Brer Bear and the uncertainty when they finally almost got him.

Snow White's Scary Adventures and its incarnations before that featured the villian to give it a retelling balance and thrill of the story in the type of spookhouse dark ride attraction it was.

Alien Encounter. You were the victim of sinister events from corporate greed and a creature.



Great Movie Ride. You were in the movies and had to face a situation with a gangster/bandit.

Fantasmic would not be nearly as impactful with only the villains. What you are saying is contradictory. There are experiences where we could side with the villains, which would be odd, and/or experiences where we assist or fill the roles of a hero stopping the villains, like a good theme park attraction emulating major events of a well-known story should be.

In Guardians of the Galaxy's attractions, you are with the heroes.

Dr. Doom's Fearfall is an attraction where you are volunteering to help the villain, but ultimately the entire thing is themed to sketch and him not caring for your well being and wants you in danger and afraid. He is still a villain. Something like this can work, but the entire Marvel Superhero Island being villains only, and Marvel has some of the coolest villains, would not really make a great impact. Doom Alley is a gritty villain area of the entire land with one attraction where the over the top villain gets to remain so.

Disney has some of the greatest villains of all time. Gaston's works in a similar sense of the balance Dr. Doom's Fear Fall has. The villain is something that exists in that world of good that knows better and that's what makes them a great antagonist.

I am in no way saying Villains land is not happening. Nor would it be uncool to see(although MK is a little odd as it should just be an extension of Fantasyland, but Bob Iger has not given a care to the American Mythos of castle parks) It is just does not create the strongest impact of an overreaching land's premise.

It seems like a direct knee jerk reaction to Monsters Dark Universe land to have something akin to respond with.

The major difference, pointed earlier is that Disney villains are very melodramatic bad guys. Easy to boo, his and hope they fail because of what they always stand for.

Most of Universal's monsters are misunderstood or victims of circumstance. The humans are often the villains.
Dracula is typically the sole antagonist of the monster world by the end of a story.

@EPCOT-O.G. To go back to answer a question you posed earlier and oversimplified a bit. A world of Gods and Monsters is not exactly the same as direct Good vs Evil protagonist and Antagonist.
 

haveyoumetmark

Well-Known Member
That's the problem I have with all of this. They are going all in to kill any theme each park had at one point. Each park felt unique and different. Now it's all about getting E-ticket IP where ever they can regardless if it fits the park.
I see the argument but on the other hand, folks interpretation of park themes is way too literal and rigid. Disney does go to some length to have things fit rather than indiscriminately plopping them down as is often characterized.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
I see the argument but on the other hand, folks interpretation of park themes is way too literal and rigid. Disney does go to some length to have things fit rather than indiscriminately plopping them down as is often characterized.
For some things I agree they do. What they have done to Epcot is criminal. I have always wished they went back and finished to original plans for World Showcase instead of trying to fit IP into Epcot
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I see the argument but on the other hand, folks interpretation of park themes is way too literal and rigid. Disney does go to some length to have things fit rather than indiscriminately plopping them down as is often characterized.

Its becoming less and less of something they care about.

We are talking about a theme park that when improved upon had an under level of Utility so that unsightly and out of place things could be efficiently moved without clashing the guests.

It used to be The Disney Difference. You can bend the rules creatively, but outright making a land just to fit some E tickets without the background and retheming things elsewhere is odd.

As much as I think Indy is too little too late and odd for animals to get over excited about. Tropical Americas makes sense as a cohesive theme. You can have adventure, peril and dangers and some ancient animal that Indy should care about but does not yet until the adventure. animals of fiction and reality can still be the focus for Animal Kingdom's sake.

That has a balance of heros, dangers, villains etc is not as good in a land of just villians starring. And goes against what the plaque was since Disneyland, as did Galaxy's Edge.

It is not that the attractions individually will be awful or that cool things can't come of it. But it's not really as impactful and certainly not to the standard set by themselves before.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Why are assuming that a Villains land would be lacking conflict or any clashes with hero’s?

The opportunity to botch a villains land is high but it can be great if executed well. It shouldn’t be a home for ALL the villains. I’m picturing Maleficent’s castle as the centerpiece surrounded by a dark forest. Included would be villains like Maleficent, Chernabog, the Wicked Witch, the Headless Horseman and the Horned King. In other words, the villains that would feel right in that setting and (by looking at this list) also happen to be the darkest of all the villains. Gaston or Scar wouldn’t fit in. Neither would Jafar but he should be saved for a proper Aladdin attraction dark ride anyway. Ursula is in the sea and has enough representation. The Queen of Hearts, Cruella or Captain Hook wouldn’t fit the tone of what I’m picturing either.

This would work very much how Fantasyland at Disneyland works. All the IP fits with the setting of the land. With all of that said I could see room for some of the villains I excluded in a well thought out E ticket. Just not out and about or having their own attractions.
 
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James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
Then you take the cool factor away from them. The coolness of villians is that people love to hate them.

If you relate to the villain too much or on their side, you lose the cool factor.

If you face off or experience the peril that the villains cause, then that is the strength of a well-designed attraction based on a film's story elsewhere.

The idea EVERYWHERE is that a park guest is a hero in a theme park. Visceral feelings of adventure and peril, then the celebration finale or outcome.

If a villain's ride has a hero assisting you, or you as the hero. How is that different from an attraction that could be anywhere in the park and why does it compliment or ask for a land based Soley on villains? Limiting and homogenizing, which is a problem Disney theme parks have had.

In Star Tours since day one, you are in the shoes of someone like Luke Skywalker, innocently exploring and called to adventure. C3PO and R2D2 are there as supporting roles the same way they would be to a protagonist. You face off with the Villains.

Back to the Future, you were in the role of a Marty McFly and Biff Tannen you directly face off/stop.

Splash Mountain, you viscerally felt the same things that Brer Fox felt through the story of him tricking Brer Fox and Brer Bear and the uncertainty when they finally almost got him.

Snow White's Scary Adventures and its incarnations before that featured the villian to give it a retelling balance and thrill of the story in the type of spookhouse dark ride attraction it was.

Alien Encounter. You were the victim of sinister events from corporate greed and a creature.



Great Movie Ride. You were in the movies and had to face a situation with a gangster/bandit.

Fantasmic would not be nearly as impactful with only the villains. What you are saying is contradictory. There are experiences where we could side with the villains, which would be odd, and/or experiences where we assist or fill the roles of a hero stopping the villains, like a good theme park attraction emulating major events of a well-known story should be.

In Guardians of the Galaxy's attractions, you are with the heroes.

Dr. Doom's Fearfall is an attraction where you are volunteering to help the villain, but ultimately the entire thing is themed to sketch and him not caring for your well being and wants you in danger and afraid. He is still a villain. Something like this can work, but the entire Marvel Superhero Island being villains only, and Marvel has some of the coolest villains, would not really make a great impact. Doom Alley is a gritty villain area of the entire land with one attraction where the over the top villain gets to remain so.

Disney has some of the greatest villains of all time. Gaston's works in a similar sense of the balance Dr. Doom's Fear Fall has. The villain is something that exists in that world of good that knows better and that's what makes them a great antagonist.

I am in no way saying Villains land is not happening. Nor would it be uncool to see(although MK is a little odd as it should just be an extension of Fantasyland, but Bob Iger has not given a care to the American Mythos of castle parks) It is just does not create the strongest impact of an overreaching land's premise.

It seems like a direct knee jerk reaction to Monsters Dark Universe land to have something akin to respond with.

The major difference, pointed earlier is that Disney villains are very melodramatic bad guys. Easy to boo, his and hope they fail because of what they always stand for.

Most of Universal's monsters are misunderstood or victims of circumstance. The humans are often the villains.
Dracula is typically the sole antagonist of the monster world by the end of a story.

@EPCOT-O.G. To go back to answer a question you posed earlier and oversimplified a bit. A world of Gods and Monsters is not exactly the same as direct Good vs Evil protagonist and Antagonist.
I think there are some pretty straightforward plot devices that can circumvent this. For instance, suppose the plot of a ride is simply “steal something from villain’s lair, villain or villain henchbeast detects and pursues you, escape”. That isn’t all that different from, say, Dinosaur.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I think there are some pretty straightforward plot devices that can circumvent this. For instance, suppose the plot of a ride is simply “steal something from villain’s lair, villain or villain henchbeast detects and pursues you, escape”. That isn’t all that different from, say, Dinosaur.

This is true. The difference is. And that is a great way to add emotional catalyst and psychological thrill.
Other than real estate, why would that be out of place in Fantasyland?

And can one attraction like that make an entire land? Look what the thought against Dinosaur became. Of all things to compare it to. Even Diagon Alley does this and has the light and dark elements of that property. But the entire land is not death eaters.
 

osian

Well-Known Member
I see the argument but on the other hand, folks interpretation of park themes is way too literal and rigid. Disney does go to some length to have things fit rather than indiscriminately plopping them down as is often characterized.

From Wikipedia (yes, I know it's not a reliable source, but it's as good a place as any to get a definition, and it seems to be correct): "A theme park is a type of amusement park that bases its structures and attractions around a central theme, often featuring multiple areas with different themes.

The type of theme park that Magic Kingdom is, and most theme parks actually, conform to the "multiple areas" aspect. No actual central theme, apart from in this case it's "magical". Disneyland is, erm, a land of Disney. Six Flags parks similar. And Universal. Some may go deeper with a central theme, e.g. Silver Dollar City which has the overarching old world, rustic feel. WDW's subsequent three parks were built around a specific, central theme. Deliberately.

Thing is, when a theme park does have a specific, central theme, and it was built for that purpose, it is actually expected that it sticks to that theme. That's not a bad thing. You're saying that once built, the theme shouldn't be adhered to.

Why shouldn't a parlk that is built to celebrate human achievements continie to have attractions built to clerebrate human achievements, for example? Why is it too rigid to stick to that theme? If it's not stuck to, the theme becomes irrlevant and it just becomes another "multiple areas" park with no central theme.

Universal's parks are like that and Disney is aspiring to convert its parks into that image, rather than continuing to keep the specific themes that certain parks were built for.

Disney isnt' really "going to some lengths" to fit things in appropriately (unless you mean the head-scratching that goes on after they've chosen what to do). The theme should be first and foremost in a park with a specific theme, and design attractions around that. Then there's no need to make things "fit". Once they've decided tgo tell a story about that theme, them (if they want to they should look at what movie IP could best tell that story. Not decide on the IP first and then try to make it fit.
 
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celluloid

Well-Known Member
From Wikipedia (yes, I know it's not a reliable source, but it's as good a place as any to get a definition, and it seems to be correct): "A theme park is a type of amusement park that bases its structures and attractions around a central theme, often featuring multiple areas with different themes.

The type of theme park that Magic Kingdom is, and most theme parks actually, conform to the "multiple areas" aspect. No actual central theme, apart from in this case it's "magical". Disneyland is, erm, a land of Disney. Six Flags parks similar. And Universal. Some may go deeper with a central theme, e.g. Silver Dollar City which has the overarching old world, rustic feel.

Each Park's dedication plaque is a good one to go by for each park having a unique central theme.

If the buzz word is the only thing that matters. Disney is themed to Disney. Then it never matters which land, or which of the four parks in WDW something goes into.

Americana past, present and future was always Disneyland. Walt's Speech even mentions that.
Everything is romanticized, even European roots and exotic cultures. Disneyland was American Optimism. Apparently, some people now find that offensive, even though it never said it was reality. Just romanticized with some hard truths sprinkled in. Optimism of past, present and tomorrow.
 

MagicHappens1971

Well-Known Member
From Wikipedia (yes, I know it's not a reliable source, but it's as good a place as any to get a definition, and it seems to be correct): "A theme park is a type of amusement park that bases its structures and attractions around a central theme, often featuring multiple areas with different themes.

The type of theme park that Magic Kingdom is, and most theme parks actually, conform to the "multiple areas" aspect. No actual central theme, apart from in this case it's "magical". Disneyland is, erm, a land of Disney. Six Flags parks similar. And Universal. Some may go deeper with a central theme, e.g. Silver Dollar City which has the overarching old world, rustic feel. WDW's subsequent three parks were built around a specific, central theme. Deliberately.
Magic Kingdom's central theme is to "bring Joy and Inspiration and New Knowledge to all who come to this happy place … a Magic Kingdom where the young at heart of all ages can laugh and play and learn – together."

Each park's dedication plaque explains the central theme, for example DAK's is "Welcome to a kingdom of animals… real, ancient, and imagined: a kingdom ruled by lions, dinosaurs, and dragons; a kingdom of balance, harmony, and survival; a kingdom we enter to share in the wonder, gaze at the beauty, thrill at the drama, and learn."
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
Magic Kingdom's central theme is to "bring Joy and Inspiration and New Knowledge to all who come to this happy place … a Magic Kingdom where the young at heart of all ages can laugh and play and learn – together."

Each park's dedication plaque explains the central theme, for example DAK's is "Welcome to a kingdom of animals… real, ancient, and imagined: a kingdom ruled by lions, dinosaurs, and dragons; a kingdom of balance, harmony, and survival; a kingdom we enter to share in the wonder, gaze at the beauty, thrill at the drama, and learn."
Unfortunately they are moving away from those themes. They should put the MK dedication and transfer it to the rest of the parks. That's where they are headed to.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately they are moving away from those themes. They should put the MK dedication and transfer it to the rest of the parks. That's where they are headed to.

That is exactly the problem. It has become so vague that any attraction can just go anywhere.

Galaxy's Edge in Disneyland is a prime example of a good land with a strong major attraction, but under any reasonable declaration has no business being in Disneyland when matched up with Walt's Dedication and themes since day one.
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
That is exactly the problem. It has become so vague that any attraction can just go anywhere.

Galaxy's Edge in Disneyland is a prime example of a good land with a strong major attraction, but under any reasonable declaration has no business being in Disneyland when matched up with Walt's Dedication and themes since day one.
True, that's how they want it now, so they don't have to update and change things out per say with the times and the free will to put something wherever they want no matter what,,,sadly....but I do feel the AK project seems to be getting lots of care in its research and design,,,,as for BBT, sounds to me like more plopping of IP,,,but will see.
 

Bleed0range

Well-Known Member
Why are assuming that a Villains land would be lacking conflict or any clashes with hero’s?

The opportunity to botch a villains land is high but it can be great if executed well. It shouldn’t be a home for ALL the villains. I’m picturing Maleficent’s castle as the centerpiece surrounded by a dark forest. Included would be villains like Maleficent, Chernabog, the Wicked Witch, the Headless Horseman and the Horned King. In other words, the villains that would feel right in that setting and (by looking at this list) also happen to be the darkest of all the villains. Gaston or Scar wouldn’t fit in. Neither would Jafar but he should be saved for a proper Aladdin attraction dark ride anyway. Ursula is in the sea and has enough representation. The Queen of Hearts, Cruella or Captain Hook wouldn’t fit the tone of what I’m picturing either.

This would work very much how Fantasyland at Disneyland works. All the IP fits with the setting of the land. With all of that said I could see room for some of the villains I excluded in a well thought out E ticket. Just not out and about or having their own attractions.

I think an E ticket state of the art attraction with a story and vibe similar to Fantasmic! would be pretty popular.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I think an E ticket state of the art attraction with a story and vibe similar to Fantasmic! would be pretty popular.

That would be fun. But a collage of villain characters attraction would seem odd if they fight Mickey and not all the heroes. We don't need yet another attraction Starring Mickey. And a collage single E ticket concept kind of works better for Fantasyland.
 

The Leader of the Club

Well-Known Member
That would be fun. But a collage of villain characters attraction would seem odd if they fight Mickey and not all the heroes. We don't need yet another attraction Starring Mickey. And a collage single E ticket concept kind of works better for Fantasyland.
I don’t think they’d be opposing Mickey. I think they’d be opposing us.

I’m imagining a RoTR-esque story where we are trying to narrowly escape a group of baddies (Hades, Maleficent, Chernabog, etc.). Add an Ursula Spinner and a family coaster themed to Yzma or Oogie Boogie and you’ve got the makings of a great land.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I don’t think they’d be opposing Mickey. I think they’d be opposing us.

I’m imagining a RoTR-esque story where we are trying to narrowly escape a group of baddies (Hades, Maleficent, Chernabog, etc.). Add an Ursula Spinner and a family coaster themed to Yzma or Oogie Boogie and you’ve got the makings of a great land.

That goes back to the old Bald Mountain proposal, which would fit, and really should be sitting right where Little Mermaid is.
 

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